Ari

homeboy4

So there you have it. How you draw the modesty line and how I draw it are arbitrary, based merely on our politics and our backgrounds. You can dismiss Hatman's view and I can dismiss yours (with respect). What will ultimately happen isn't based on which position has the strongest logic. It's who is well connected enough, who has the clout, who has the power to make his (or her) arbitrary view of WBI the law of the land.

PhoenixRev

My trust and respect for the government was completely diminished when we were told over and over again that no citizens of this country would be wiretapped without a warrant only to discover that the government was indeed wiretapping its own citizens without a warrant.

The government has a long way to go to earn my respect and trust again.

Right now, they don't seem to be very eager to start that journey.

deniah

After Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris shot up their school in Columbine, many schools across the country put up metal detectors in their halls

GUWonder

What some advocates of strip search machines continue to fail to acknowledge is that human genitals are different than a human head, as evidenced by the fact that matters genital-related -- by various laws -- get special treatment compared to that applied to much of the rest of the human body (including a head). The laws are a reflection of American society.

While the strip search advocates may include those who are an advocate of publicly-displayed "free willies" and publicly available "x-ray"-esque child porn, there is a reason why we have laws against "indecent exposure" and child porn which apply even in the absence of the children being subjected to physical sexual molestation in the photos.

homeboy4

Okay acknowledged. Now to the point. YOU have a concern with genitals. SOMEONE ELSE might have a concern that is different from yours (if the bald head example doesn't work, substitute something else) -- with just as much concern and passion. If your concern is to be acknowledged and provided for, how can you dismiss someone else's simply because you don't share their concern and passion? Would it be fair for me to dismiss your position because I don't share your concern and passion?

GUWonder

Who says that I have that concern applicable to me? I've actually been using these machines far more and far longer than almost anyone who doesn't work for the manufacturers or at an airport security screening checkpoint.

It's not I who have created rules that treat genitals different than heads. In a representative democracy, it's the majority and their lawmakers who have decided that genitals are special in the way the head is not.

It seems like you want to dismiss the position of the majority that has determined that genitals really are different.

mre5765

Leaving the privacy argument aside for a moment, we have a gap in security which allows bombs on board that cannot be detected short of a physical strip and cavity search (the WBI machines are useless and this has been exhaustively explained to the point of being futile to people who fail to respond the points being raised). If terrorists begin to exploit this gap then 99.99999999% will soon become 99.99% and that is unacceptable. I don't have the answer to that problem, but that is the problem authorities should be working to solve, not a investing in a boondoggle that will degrade the humanity of law abiding passengers. What I do know is that when Richard Reid managed to board a plane in Israel, he was assigned a sky marshal to sit with him, and he didn't attempt to detonate a bomb. And I'm pretty sure he was not strip searched.

No. For example, if a screener detects explosives on the surface of your clothing, then you are taken to private room, and stripped. This happened to my mother in SYD before a domestic flight (the person operating the machine that tests for explosives was obviously incompetent).

Your arguments equivocating bald heads to bare penises are ridiculous. In every place I want to fly to, the majority of the members of society don't share your equivalency. If there are societies that require everyone to let it all hang out all the time, then I won't be visiting.

And as been pointed out here and in most posts, your arguments are irrelevant since screening the exterior of penises doesn't remove the threat. This calls into question then, your advocacy of WBI.

Superguy

I think that we're looking at the wrong things, and how often terrorists can/want to exploit holes in the process. The problem is that we're focusing way too much on pax. Sure, pax can be a threat, but how much of a threat really are they compared to the other holes in the system? We still have unscreened cargo, unscreened workers that have access to planes and sterile areas, and no real way of securing baggage. ANY of these things can be used as vectors, and some of them have been.

The interesting thing is that several ideas have been proposed over at PV (after all, they've asked for ideas repeatedly, not that they've said anything about implementing them). TK had a great idea about the strapping system.

Let's also be realistic, too. Despite the fact that TSA has an abysmal record of finding items, we still have a pretty safe air system. It raises the question of how much of a threat terrorism really is. It's pretty obvious they can find ways around what we have now, and will find ways against what we deploy in the future.

Trollkiller

Many schools already had them. Even after Columbine the only people that were worried were schools. Malls did not get metal detectors.

mre5765

True. Getting a bomb in unscreened cargo with a wireless detonater, either in the hands of a pax or even remotely detonated by someone in the airport parking lot is probably no more difficult than producing an effective anus bomb.

The reason terrorists don't take that route is because inconveniencing cargo due to the extensive searches needed is a non-issue for pax. It might result in cargo being banned from airlines, leaving it for FedEx et al, but no one other that a few airline execs care (jobs will just shift from UA, AA, et al to FedEx, DHL et al). Whereas, terrorists have to be quite pleased with the results from Dec 25, even if the actual attempt failed, the costs we have incurred as a result of the attempt -- from the perspective of terrorists -- are well worth it.

Superguy

I still think blowing up a FedEx heavy shortly after take off in a heavily populated area would still be something to fear, even if there's a minimal crew and a bunch of packages. People will still think - wow ... that could have been my plane. I hope that doesn't happen to me.

GUWonder

When there are examples of the US government paying $1,000,000+ per $1 in terrorists' spending on an attack, failed or otherwise, the terrorists have probably found a return on their money that is more than what they would have expected in their wildest dreams.

Countries should stop http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/trave...ng-ransom.html to the terrorists.

mre5765

Then FedEx will build landing strips out in the sticks or using existing such strips. Mainliner jets can land on gravel fields; I've experienced it.

angelofsol

I don't think this is an argument about nudity. For some people it is and for those that think that those people are being prudish they feel that someones idea of modesty and the intrusion on that is a small price to pay for "saving lives".

This is what has begun to disgust me about humanity

We live as though our lives are the be all and end all. That life is more important than anything else in the world.

My problems with these scanners is the same problem I have with the Patroit act or with that measure that was/is trying to be pushed through congress that would make government backed spyware on every home computer being installed the law.

WHERE does one draw the line? What happened to living free? What happened to preserving one's principles and not just one's life?

Our forefathers (it's approaching July 4th, so lets think about this) were willing to and did sacrifice their lives so that we might live on principles and not in fear. And right now the hysterics of our government for years now have incited us to greater levels of fear where we are made to believe that by sacrificing our rights, liberties, etc will keep us safe... will keep us alive.

And the more we sacrifice little by little the more we will be willing to later and there will always be someone out there who will be willing to take advantage of that.

I know it sounds crazy conspiracy theorist, but the argument is viable and valid.

As far as the airport scanners go, I'm concerned about the radiation especially where there are some out there who say it can unzip... DNA or RNA... I think it was RNA that I read. Anyway, even if it was proven to be safe I would still have a problem with it. It goes way beyond the modesty issue, to me it's simply too much. The line has to be drawn somewhere otherwise we will give more and more until we have only our lives.

I would much rather live a life on principle than simply live to live. Of course, I might be weird.