Those of you who don't mind nude scans -- where DO you draw the line?
Jan 1, 2010, 1:59 am
#1
Original Poster
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Programs: JAL Global Club & oneworld Sapphire, ANA SFC & Star Alliance Gold
Posts: 3,738
Those of you who don't mind nude scans -- where DO you draw the line?
Just a question for those of you who don't mind the TSA viewing nude images of you on WBI scanners. Where DO you draw the line (if anywhere)?
Let's forget the "inconvenience factor" here. Suppose that a colonoscopy could be performed in just a couple of minutes. Would you be OK with the TSA making you drop your pants and performing a colonoscopy on you? Would you be OK if you had to take off all your clothes in a private room and have nude photos taken of you? Let's suppose the TSA guaranteed that the photos wouldn't be saved and only an anonymous person in another room viewed the photos. Would you be OK with it?
To the women who say you don't mind the WBI scans -- would you be OK with mandatory vaginal exams? Suppose you could keep your face and other body parts covered while a TSO performed the exam -- then would it be OK? If you could choose the gender of the TSO performing the exam, would it be OK?
To those of you with children -- would you be OK if the TSA made your kids take off all their clothes and be photographed nude? Would you be OK with rectal exams performed on your kids? How would you explain to your kids the need for these procedures?
Some of you might argue that the above scenarios are just not realistic or likely and therefore aren't worth responding to. So let's consider a more realistic scenario. It is entirely possible (plausible, really) that WBI technology will advance to the point that the images become quite lifelike, almost like an actual nude photograph (as opposed to the somewhat grainy, blue images they produce now). If you say the current WBI technology is OK, then where do you draw the line when the technology advances to the point that it is producing actual nude photographs? Are you really OK with having your nude picture taken by government personnel every time you fly? Like it or not, this whole WBI thing has "slippery slope" written all over it, and if you accept the government's ability to take these images now, it becomes that much more likely that they will be able to commit even greater violations of privacy in the future.
Let's forget the "inconvenience factor" here. Suppose that a colonoscopy could be performed in just a couple of minutes. Would you be OK with the TSA making you drop your pants and performing a colonoscopy on you? Would you be OK if you had to take off all your clothes in a private room and have nude photos taken of you? Let's suppose the TSA guaranteed that the photos wouldn't be saved and only an anonymous person in another room viewed the photos. Would you be OK with it?
To the women who say you don't mind the WBI scans -- would you be OK with mandatory vaginal exams? Suppose you could keep your face and other body parts covered while a TSO performed the exam -- then would it be OK? If you could choose the gender of the TSO performing the exam, would it be OK?
To those of you with children -- would you be OK if the TSA made your kids take off all their clothes and be photographed nude? Would you be OK with rectal exams performed on your kids? How would you explain to your kids the need for these procedures?
Some of you might argue that the above scenarios are just not realistic or likely and therefore aren't worth responding to. So let's consider a more realistic scenario. It is entirely possible (plausible, really) that WBI technology will advance to the point that the images become quite lifelike, almost like an actual nude photograph (as opposed to the somewhat grainy, blue images they produce now). If you say the current WBI technology is OK, then where do you draw the line when the technology advances to the point that it is producing actual nude photographs? Are you really OK with having your nude picture taken by government personnel every time you fly? Like it or not, this whole WBI thing has "slippery slope" written all over it, and if you accept the government's ability to take these images now, it becomes that much more likely that they will be able to commit even greater violations of privacy in the future.
Last edited by Unimatrix One; Jan 1, 2010 at 2:08 am
Jan 1, 2010, 3:10 am
#3
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 6,334
You take a sequence of possibilities (IF the technology advances as you predict, and IF it is used in the way you predict)
to come up with this "slippery slope"...
Too many IF's for me to try to answer I'm sorry....
In any case I am more dubious than you about the likelihood of the technology advancing to that point.. I am even more doubtful given the purpose of these scans that such clarity is at all necessary ... thus making the (no doubt expensive) equipment upgrades required should it become available rather unlikely....as they could not be justified to those holding the purse strings!
Ask again when (or if) the technology does reach that point.... and is incorporated into mass screening devices... OK?
to come up with this "slippery slope"...
Too many IF's for me to try to answer I'm sorry....
In any case I am more dubious than you about the likelihood of the technology advancing to that point.. I am even more doubtful given the purpose of these scans that such clarity is at all necessary ... thus making the (no doubt expensive) equipment upgrades required should it become available rather unlikely....as they could not be justified to those holding the purse strings!
Ask again when (or if) the technology does reach that point.... and is incorporated into mass screening devices... OK?
Jan 1, 2010, 4:25 am
#4
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 250
It is ABSOLUTELY NOT unreasonable to discuss the future possibility and potential that we WILL be required to submit to a vaginal and/or rectal exam in order to travel.
WHAT WE NOW MEEKLY SUBMIT TO, WE WOULD HAVE CONSIDERED OUTRAGEOUS, INTOLERABLE AND AN ABUSE OF POWER FIFTEEN YEARS AGO.
All it takes is ONE EPISODE of a terrorist hiding bomb materials in his/her rectum or her vagina and you will find the authorities think themselves justified to "check everyone" there, rather than start profiling for the KNOWN threats to our safety.
This is NOT an outrageous question. It should be discussed. Where DO we draw the line and say, this far, NO FURTHER, start profiling instead.
I must say they ALREADY do vaginal and rectal exams on persons they suspect of carrying drugs, so it would not be something new, or which they are loathe to do.
It is this INCREMENTALISM we must beware of, the bleeding away of rights slowly. It is like a guy mowing YOUR lawn one strip over per month or even year, as he mows his yard. Every year he starts using a little more of your yard as his own. Pretty soon you notice a fence going up and your lot is a LOT smaller than you remember it to be.
WHAT WE NOW MEEKLY SUBMIT TO, WE WOULD HAVE CONSIDERED OUTRAGEOUS, INTOLERABLE AND AN ABUSE OF POWER FIFTEEN YEARS AGO.
All it takes is ONE EPISODE of a terrorist hiding bomb materials in his/her rectum or her vagina and you will find the authorities think themselves justified to "check everyone" there, rather than start profiling for the KNOWN threats to our safety.
This is NOT an outrageous question. It should be discussed. Where DO we draw the line and say, this far, NO FURTHER, start profiling instead.
I must say they ALREADY do vaginal and rectal exams on persons they suspect of carrying drugs, so it would not be something new, or which they are loathe to do.
It is this INCREMENTALISM we must beware of, the bleeding away of rights slowly. It is like a guy mowing YOUR lawn one strip over per month or even year, as he mows his yard. Every year he starts using a little more of your yard as his own. Pretty soon you notice a fence going up and your lot is a LOT smaller than you remember it to be.
Last edited by AINITFUNNY; Jan 1, 2010 at 4:33 am
Jan 1, 2010, 4:29 am
#5
Moderator: British Airways Executive Club
Join Date: Jan 2009
Programs: Battleaxe Alliance
Posts: 22,127
I wonder if they'll come up with airport MRI (which I think will show up anything hidden in body cavities). Implementation would be interesting and very awkward.
Would I consider it reasonable? NO. Would I be annoyed? YES, very annoyed with terrorists and also with the government if they made it a universal requirement because it would be potentially putting people at risk (what would the risk of having a full-body MRI five times a week for aircrew, for instance? The answer is, no-one knows!).
Would I consider it reasonable? NO. Would I be annoyed? YES, very annoyed with terrorists and also with the government if they made it a universal requirement because it would be potentially putting people at risk (what would the risk of having a full-body MRI five times a week for aircrew, for instance? The answer is, no-one knows!).
Jan 1, 2010, 8:44 am
#8
Join Date: May 2009
Location: LAX
Programs: AA Gold
Posts: 398
Just a question for those of you who don't mind the TSA viewing nude images of you on WBI scanners. Where DO you draw the line (if anywhere)?
Let's forget the "inconvenience factor" here. Suppose that a colonoscopy could be performed in just a couple of minutes. Would you be OK with the TSA making you drop your pants and performing a colonoscopy on you? Would you be OK if you had to take off all your clothes in a private room and have nude photos taken of you? Let's suppose the TSA guaranteed that the photos wouldn't be saved and only an anonymous person in another room viewed the photos. Would you be OK with it?
To the women who say you don't mind the WBI scans -- would you be OK with mandatory vaginal exams? Suppose you could keep your face and other body parts covered while a TSO performed the exam -- then would it be OK? If you could choose the gender of the TSO performing the exam, would it be OK?
To those of you with children -- would you be OK if the TSA made your kids take off all their clothes and be photographed nude? Would you be OK with rectal exams performed on your kids? How would you explain to your kids the need for these procedures?
Some of you might argue that the above scenarios are just not realistic or likely and therefore aren't worth responding to. So let's consider a more realistic scenario. It is entirely possible (plausible, really) that WBI technology will advance to the point that the images become quite lifelike, almost like an actual nude photograph (as opposed to the somewhat grainy, blue images they produce now). If you say the current WBI technology is OK, then where do you draw the line when the technology advances to the point that it is producing actual nude photographs? Are you really OK with having your nude picture taken by government personnel every time you fly? Like it or not, this whole WBI thing has "slippery slope" written all over it, and if you accept the government's ability to take these images now, it becomes that much more likely that they will be able to commit even greater violations of privacy in the future.
Let's forget the "inconvenience factor" here. Suppose that a colonoscopy could be performed in just a couple of minutes. Would you be OK with the TSA making you drop your pants and performing a colonoscopy on you? Would you be OK if you had to take off all your clothes in a private room and have nude photos taken of you? Let's suppose the TSA guaranteed that the photos wouldn't be saved and only an anonymous person in another room viewed the photos. Would you be OK with it?
To the women who say you don't mind the WBI scans -- would you be OK with mandatory vaginal exams? Suppose you could keep your face and other body parts covered while a TSO performed the exam -- then would it be OK? If you could choose the gender of the TSO performing the exam, would it be OK?
To those of you with children -- would you be OK if the TSA made your kids take off all their clothes and be photographed nude? Would you be OK with rectal exams performed on your kids? How would you explain to your kids the need for these procedures?
Some of you might argue that the above scenarios are just not realistic or likely and therefore aren't worth responding to. So let's consider a more realistic scenario. It is entirely possible (plausible, really) that WBI technology will advance to the point that the images become quite lifelike, almost like an actual nude photograph (as opposed to the somewhat grainy, blue images they produce now). If you say the current WBI technology is OK, then where do you draw the line when the technology advances to the point that it is producing actual nude photographs? Are you really OK with having your nude picture taken by government personnel every time you fly? Like it or not, this whole WBI thing has "slippery slope" written all over it, and if you accept the government's ability to take these images now, it becomes that much more likely that they will be able to commit even greater violations of privacy in the future.
2. No, to the colonoscopy in minutes, not because it is a colonoscopy, but because several minutes is too long, it would hurt and it wouldn't be anonymous. Time and convenience is way more important to me than these procedures at issue. If you could do the colonoscopy in the same time it takes to walk through a scanner it wouldn't hurt and it would be anonymous (impossible I know, but we are dealing in what ifs), then I'd have no problem with it. That is, I'd have to drop my pants, have the procedure performed, clean up, pull up my pants, it wouldn't hurt, anonymously all in 3 seconds. If that could happen, I'd have no problem with it.
3. TSA takes pictures but they would only be viewed anonymous by somone in another room? But what about the TSA taking the pictures? He's right there so it wouldn't be anonymous right? But if the TSA taking the pictures could do it anonymously, then no problem. Provided this could all be done quickly -- in a few seconds.
4. I'll pass on the female questions.
5. The children's pictures -- as well as the adults -- would have to be anonymous -- and no more than 3 seconds.
6. Rectal exams of kids. You got me on this one. Maybe we'd have to take the train instead. But remember inconvenience is the big thing for me. In this fantasy situation you've created, if the rectal exam was 3 seconds long, I would explain the procedures the same way I'd explain other things children have to endure like, say, a vaccination.
7. Actual nude potographs taken by advanced WBI technology. No problem provided they are anonymous and only take the 3 seconds is takes to walk through the machine.
Jan 1, 2010, 10:16 am
#9
Join Date: Jul 2004
Programs: CO, UA, AA, WN, DL Gold
Posts: 2,981
[QUOTE=Unimatrix One;13090430]Just a question for those of you who don't mind the TSA viewing nude images of you on WBI scanners. Where DO you draw the line (if anywhere)?
I draw it right about where it is now. I'll do the WBI, but no more. That's the line.
I draw it right about where it is now. I'll do the WBI, but no more. That's the line.
Jan 1, 2010, 10:17 am
#10
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: AVL and Almond, NC
Programs: Earthling, TSA Disparager Gold
Posts: 914
1. Yes, I would draw the line somewhere.
2. No, to the colonoscopy in minutes, not because it is a colonoscopy, but because several minutes is too long, it would hurt and it wouldn't be anonymous. Time and convenience is way more important to me than these procedures at issue. If you could do the colonoscopy in the same time it takes to walk through a scanner it wouldn't hurt and it would be anonymous (impossible I know, but we are dealing in what ifs), then I'd have no problem with it. That is, I'd have to drop my pants, have the procedure performed, clean up, pull up my pants, it wouldn't hurt, anonymously all in 3 seconds. If that could happen, I'd have no problem with it.
3. TSA takes pictures but they would only be viewed anonymous by somone in another room? But what about the TSA taking the pictures? He's right there so it wouldn't be anonymous right? But if the TSA taking the pictures could do it anonymously, then no problem. Provided this could all be done quickly -- in a few seconds.
4. I'll pass on the female questions.
5. The children's pictures -- as well as the adults -- would have to be anonymous -- and no more than 3 seconds.
6. Rectal exams of kids. You got me on this one. Maybe we'd have to take the train instead. But remember inconvenience is the big thing for me. In this fantasy situation you've created, if the rectal exam was 3 seconds long, I would explain the procedures the same way I'd explain other things children have to endure like, say, a vaccination.
7. Actual nude potographs taken by advanced WBI technology. No problem provided they are anonymous and only take the 3 seconds is takes to walk through the machine.
2. No, to the colonoscopy in minutes, not because it is a colonoscopy, but because several minutes is too long, it would hurt and it wouldn't be anonymous. Time and convenience is way more important to me than these procedures at issue. If you could do the colonoscopy in the same time it takes to walk through a scanner it wouldn't hurt and it would be anonymous (impossible I know, but we are dealing in what ifs), then I'd have no problem with it. That is, I'd have to drop my pants, have the procedure performed, clean up, pull up my pants, it wouldn't hurt, anonymously all in 3 seconds. If that could happen, I'd have no problem with it.
3. TSA takes pictures but they would only be viewed anonymous by somone in another room? But what about the TSA taking the pictures? He's right there so it wouldn't be anonymous right? But if the TSA taking the pictures could do it anonymously, then no problem. Provided this could all be done quickly -- in a few seconds.
4. I'll pass on the female questions.
5. The children's pictures -- as well as the adults -- would have to be anonymous -- and no more than 3 seconds.
6. Rectal exams of kids. You got me on this one. Maybe we'd have to take the train instead. But remember inconvenience is the big thing for me. In this fantasy situation you've created, if the rectal exam was 3 seconds long, I would explain the procedures the same way I'd explain other things children have to endure like, say, a vaccination.
7. Actual nude potographs taken by advanced WBI technology. No problem provided they are anonymous and only take the 3 seconds is takes to walk through the machine.
From Nate Silver's article:
There were a total of 674 passengers, not counting crew or the terrorists themselves, on the flights on which these incidents occurred. By contrast, there have been 7,015,630,000 passenger enplanements over the past decade. Therefore, the odds of being on given departure which is the subject of a terrorist incident have been 1 in 10,408,947 over the past decade. By contrast, the odds of being struck by lightning in a given year are about 1 in 500,000. This means that you could board 20 flights per year and still be less likely to be the subject of an attempted terrorist attack than to be struck by lightning.
Jan 1, 2010, 3:36 pm
#11
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 34
From Nate Silver's article:
There were a total of 674 passengers, not counting crew or the terrorists themselves, on the flights on which these incidents occurred. By contrast, there have been 7,015,630,000 passenger enplanements over the past decade. Therefore, the odds of being on given departure which is the subject of a terrorist incident have been 1 in 10,408,947 over the past decade.
Jan 1, 2010, 3:49 pm
#12
Join Date: Oct 2006
Programs: AS, FB, MB, MR, HH
Posts: 347
Are you even reading the words you are typing?You would gladly drop your pants in the airport and let a TSO insert an object in your a$$, dude what the fook are you smoking?
Jan 1, 2010, 4:11 pm
#13
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: on the path to perdition
Programs: Delta, United
Posts: 4,782
No way airport scanning be MRI based - too costly and the chance of quenching a magnetic is too great. All it would take is one smarty cart or less.
While currently the WBI take a 2D image, it will not be long before we see production 3D WBI. Prototypes are out there.
I guess like some others I have already drawn a line as the current system is a joke. After 21 years cargo is still not 100% inspected, I have no problems with profiling, crap like no you can not take a steel cable for securing your laptop on board but you can bring a power cord with you. Go figure. So TSA needs to first rethink things before going forward. But I doubt that will happen.
While currently the WBI take a 2D image, it will not be long before we see production 3D WBI. Prototypes are out there.
I guess like some others I have already drawn a line as the current system is a joke. After 21 years cargo is still not 100% inspected, I have no problems with profiling, crap like no you can not take a steel cable for securing your laptop on board but you can bring a power cord with you. Go figure. So TSA needs to first rethink things before going forward. But I doubt that will happen.
Jan 1, 2010, 4:31 pm
#15
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: YVR
Posts: 9,999
I'm fine with whatever they dream up. I figure the first time they see me "nude" one TSA agent will suffer a cardiac arrest, 3 will check in to mental health facilities, and the remaining TSA personnel at that station will all summarily quit and join a commune (probably somewhere in Northern California.)
