http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/005900.html

I am interested in your thoughts on this venture. Specifically, FT members profiting from information that was developed and shared on FlyerTalk in good faith.

An interesting and good question. When I look and see how this MileSpy thing was put together I know that the information wasn't exclusive to FlyerTalk. Here at the magazine side of things we knew about it some 4 weeks ago. As for profiting on that information. Honestly I have mixed feelings. I'm big on the community thing and sharing and what the best of FlyerTalk is all about. That was why this board was launched some 3+ years ago. As far as profiting, my guess is that I in a since could be accused of the same thing I feel uncomfortable with. After all, that's what InsideFlyer built it's base on, taking information that was publicly available, analyzing it and then selling it back to the public. I've never felt real guilty of that because I know in things other than frequent flyer programs, I pay Consumer Reports, etc. money to do research for me. MileSpy is not a program that is unique. They have taken a very rich partner program offering and for a fee are willing to do all the paperwork and other things to help you get the most value for miles. I don' think I've done a good job of explaining my thoughts on this. On one side it's a great example of entrepreneurial effort, on the other, it does take advantage of FlyerTalk and the ease in which any information can be plucked and re-packaged. Having said all this, I guess the thing we would need to keep in mind is that for those of you who are real FlyerTalkers, we wouldn't use that program anyway since we know what it is and how it works and if we wanted to exert the effort, would do it ourselves. Perhaps what we could do in the future is to suggest to members who do in a way profit from FlyerTalk to tithe a donation back to the board to go toward supporting the infrastructure. I'm only one person, what is more important is the collective thoughts of our members. What do you have to say?

IMHO, that's the least they could do.

Randy (and cactuspete),

I really don't see what the fuss is all about - if members of Flyertalk want to set up a business offering a service to Joe Public (including Flyertalkers), and Joe Public is willing to pay for this service (a great deal anyway), then where is the issue ?
The information is in the public domain anyway, not exclusively on Flyertalk.
Also, this service offers an option for non-US and Canada residents that might not otherwise have been possible, as you need a US/Canada address to avail of the offer with Valuemags.
So as we'd say here in Ireland, Fair Play to them, and I hope that MC and SB do well in this venture.

John P.

I don't have a problem with an entrepreneur making some dough. I also think that the entrepreneurs in question are taking a substantial risk that even they don't fully comprehend. [begin edit] They're signing up to deliver miles that they ultimately may not be able to deliver (due to changes in program rules, etc.) I suspect if things go south for them, any victim could "cover" by getting miles from some other source (if available) and the measure of damages would be the difference between the 1.5c and the covered per mile cost. Another potential measure of damages could be the difference in the "cost" (using miles) of a trip and the actual cost of paying for the trip.

Of course, I hope none of this comes to pass, but there is absolutely no way I would accept this level of risk with so many factors outside my control. I guess that's why, in part, these enterprising gentlemen are, in my opinion, entitled to any margin they can command [end edit].

With that said, I think that Randy's name was used almost as an endorsement of the Milespy offering.

I haven't read any gripe from him about that, but then again I doubt he'd post such a thing in a public forum.

I guess my question is this: Randy, do you have a problem with having your name associated with this promotion?

Mike

[This message has been edited by Mikey likes it (edited 12-21-2001).]

Mikey,

I believe Randy tacitly endorsed it when he advertised it in his online Webflyer newletter.

I too believe Steve and Matthew are taking a risk to do this... but all the more power to them. If they are willing to take the risk, they should reap the rewards.

Good luck men!

William

Did anyone (Randy or Milespy founders) attempt to contact Radisson about this issue?

I think that Radisson may be losing money on this deal, and if so doesn't it follow that they might be willing to let individual customers take advantage of this deal but may be hesitant to allow massive arbitrage by a commercial entity.

I'm also afraid that this makes it less likely of similar future offers. And it makes it more likely that Radisson may put caps in their program about how many miles can be transferred to airlines in a year. Latin Pass imposed such a cap on transfers to Marriott Rewards.

I am not sure what all the fuss is about? All they are doing is giving people more choice. If people are aware of the valuemags/goldpoints deal they are hardley likley to buy from milespy are they? Though people who don't know about the promotion ie non Ft'ers, may not find a way to get miles so cheaply other than taking Milespy's offer. So, every one wins, so what's the problem?

As for the arb issue and the commercialization of this offer, well it seems to me that gold points could be accused of taking advatage of radisson rather than value mags or Milespy, so there is already arbing going on at the commercial level by Gold points, after all they were the ones who did the deal with value mags.

PG are you by any chance that Pudding Guy who has been all over the national media for his exploitation of a so called promotional loophole? If so your attitude seems a little odd.

No, I am not Pudding guy.

If everyone won I would have no problems. I'm not sure it is as simple as saying that everyone wins.

BTW - I view Goldpoints and Radisson as the same entity.

[This message has been edited by PG (edited 12-21-2001).]

While not the same entity, both are Carlson companies (along with TGIF, Country Inn and Suites, Radisson Seven Seas Cruises, Carlson Wagonlit Travel, Regent International Hotels, etc).

Randy, correct me if I'm wrong, but I was certainly under the impression that this had your tacit endorsement.

That said, I very much want to give back to the FT community. I've tried to do as much in a non-financial way (www.mileagerunner.com), but now am able to do so it a much more visable way.

There was talk a while back about "donations" to the FT board, which I was happy to do. At the time, Randy discouraged it.

I'm very much aware that Randy runs this board as a public service. While I am by no means in favour of charging for this service, I'm happy to pay my dues. FT has served me well (not professional, but personally) and I'm happy to offer whatever resource is most valuable -- be it my time, skills, technical expertise, or cash. I'm happy to have this opportunity to return something to this community.

I agree with you all -- it does raise ethical issues. I was very apprehensive when I went into this arrangement. It was only when I justified to myself that it was ethical AND had Randy's approval that I decided to proceed. That, to me, was the acid test.

As those of you who are following the thread must have noted, there is significant support for both arguments.

What's said here over the next few weeks, to me, is crucial. I am genuinely interested in how people feel about this.

Assuming we can all be rational, non-emotional adults, I'm very interested in whether this is ethically right or wrong, but more importantly why it's right or wrong... Let's hear your views!

Thanks in advance to all who give their input...

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Please visit The Mileage Runner's Toolkit and Unofficial United Airlines Guide

I guess I missed this.

To the email address update page!!

And by the way, I hope it's abundantly clear that I think these guys should be able to do whatever they want to do, as long as it's legal.

In a similar vein:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/005912.html

Similarly should the airlines/hotels be able to do anything to their programs as long as it is legal?

what bothes me about milespy is that it only works because it is not transparent. if they said up front, we'll do the work on this deal you can otherwise find and do yourself that would be fine, but in the end they are selling the 'secret' and the paperwork is adjunct. If the site explained the whole process up front it would be, in my mind, truly selling of the paperwork part as the service offered. I have just never been comfortable with people selling secrets that really quite openly available.