Not only that, but because of what I personally think was the abuse of this promo, by turning it into commercial ventures-- possibly contributing to it's premature discontinuance, some folks who were simply following the rules will now have to invest valuable time into making certain that they get the 450 instead of the 150 per $. Phone calls, e-mails, etc. just to insure they get what they were on track to get just a week ago-- no fuss, no muss.

I purchased some (many) magazines a few days ago, but they are "posting" at the the "new" rate of 150 per $. I don't doubt that eventually I will prevail in getting that fixed-- but, IMHO, the abuse of this promo will cause unearned grief for those who followed the rules.

Just my �.02



[This message has been edited by JonNYC (edited 12-27-2001).]

I bought approximately $120 worth of subscriptions on Monday when the 450 point offer was still valid. Today I noticed that the points posted at the 150 rate. I called the Goldpoints service center this morning and the rep said to fax them a copy of the confirmation notice from ValueMags, my Goldpoints account number, and a note requesting the adjustment and my account will be updated. She mentioned in passing that they've been having a lot of problems getting the points to post correctly for ValueMags. Didn't sound like it would be a problem getting the adjustment, but we'll have to see.



[This message has been edited by El Cochinito (edited 12-27-2001).]

I have no ill will to the milespy people personally, but I do believe that the concept poses a threat to the health of frequency programs in general.

I've been giving this a great deal of though recently. I think, in this case, there is a difference.

Goldpoints, unlike Gold Rewards, is a shopping program. It is not affiliated with any specific hotel, airline, etc. It rewards shopping with its partners through its portal.

The Goldpoints business model is commission-based -- they receive a commission for every purchase made through their portal with an affiliate. The loyalty/frequency they reward is shopping through their portal.

It's a little too dog eat dog for me to say merely 'he who eats the fastest gets the mostest.'

Isn't this what happens in a sale? If you want to get the best merchandise, you need to be there as soon as the store opens. If you miss the ad in the paper for the sale, you'll probably be disappointed in the merchandise selection if you get there late. If it's been a great sale, all the merchandise may have gone before you get there -- and the sale will be over.

Frequency programs were not intended as businesses for others (see airline coupon brokers as an example. are all of you praising milespy in favor of selling miles...that's just someone making a buck)

Crucial difference -- airline coupon brokering is against airline rules. This promotion was totally within the rules, and even more, was in the spirit of the rules. We exhibited exactly the behaviour that they were intending to reward.

they are intended to reward the customer for actual purchases or travel or hotel nights, etc.

And they do. Every one of the purchases made by MileSpy or other FTers was an actual, genuine purchase. Magazines were shipped, credit cards were charged -- what bit of this *isn't* an actual purchase?

I think what this comes down to is an issue of ethics, not program rules.

I, for one, would love to move this topic over to a separate thread on ethics and frequency programs.

I'm still bothered by the ethical issues of those on the AA board who plundered the Erin Go Braugh mileage matching offer during the 20/20 promotion. I personally didn't participate in this and thought that it was extremely distasteful of those who did with $1 donations.

Anyway... off topic for this particular forum, but I would be interested in seeing this debate continue somewhere where MILESPY isn't the one getting the brunt of the abuse as, depending on ones personal code of ethics, there are many potential abuses that go on here daily.

Knowing Steve is behind this, I'd feel safe using the service. However, like most other road warriors, I have more miles than I can use, so buying miles just for the sake of having them doesn't appeal to me.

Knowing I can get 50+ miles per $1 spent buying magazines is an appealing proposition, as I read a lot of magazines (anything's better than SkyMall!) but I'm lazy enough I don't want to wade through the Raddisson/Goldpoints/ValuMags noise to figure out how to make it all work.

Given that, I think I'd buy into the service Steve & Matthew are offering if I could get some of the magazines sent to my home. :-)

Goldpoints, unlike Gold Rewards, is a shopping program. It is not affiliated with any specific hotel, airline, etc. It rewards shopping with its partners through its portal.

But we are not using the Goldpoint exchange rate to get the airline miles. We are using the Radisson exchange rate. Your argument would be valid if you were using the Goldpoint rate of 1 mile per 10 points to get the airline miles. So the original point about hurting the health of frequency programs is valid.

Isn't this what happens in a sale? If you want to get the best merchandise, you need to be there as soon as the store opens. If you miss the ad in the paper for the sale, you'll probably be disappointed in the merchandise selection if you get there late. If it's been a great sale, all the merchandise may have gone before you get there -- and the sale will be over.

The difference to me is that in a sale customers do not contract a business to go and grab everything on sale.

Crucial difference -- airline coupon brokering is against airline rules. This promotion was totally within the rules, and even more, was in the spirit of the rules. We exhibited exactly the behaviour that they were intending to reward.

I am not sure that you were complying with the spirit of the rules, as the Radisson Gold Rewards Program is only available to residents in the U.S., Canada, Mexico and the Caribbean (and you were offering miles to people living in those countries and to those who were living outside those countries).

How about here: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum97/HTML/000626.html ?

I think that this ventrue is great for all of those who can use it. FT board is for all of us to realize ANY kind of opportunity in the airline FF industry. It HAS been looked at carefully by Randy. I say BRAVO

While I don't have any ethical problem with this effort, I definitely understand the point those of you who disagree with me are making and it's definitely a valid point of view.

However, after finding my way around FlyerTalk a bit, I find it surprising that so many people have "moral/ethical issues" about "working/taking advantage of" offers like this though staying within the official guidelines of the offer, yet there seems to be far less criticism ofCoupon Connection and things like "mutual gifting".

Once again, I personally have no problem with a <wink,wink> trade taking advantage of a large corporation's marketing program. However, if anyone has a moral problem with anything like Milespy, I'd think they'd be mortified by Coupon Connection.

Have I ever had a colleague use one of my soon-to-expire SWUs for an upcoming trip and have him give me one of his new ones in exchange? Maybe. Do I have a problem with that? Absolutely not - no harm, no foul, I say. Is that bartering and totally against program rules - ABSOLUTELY!

sfojfk1k,

It has been a while so you may not have seen some of my posts vis a vis Coupon connection and the delusion that goes by the recently coined term 'gifting.' It would seem to some that semantics can change barter into gift. Not only is it not true (there is no change in reality due to change in wording) but it's often an attempt at profit under the guise of generosity, which I find particularly apalling (by way of overstating the value of what you offer while understating the value of what you seek).

The same sort of moral/ethical gymnastics is used by some to argue that program gouging is a fair practice. For some, no gymnastics, just a 'tear off as much as you can' approach with no regard for broader consequence or consideration of what is fair to the business that is, after all, offering something rather generous. No consideration of intent. No objective analysis, free from consideration of self interest as to what is fair.

While that is a 'legitimate' point of view I think it is destructive, selfish (short term), and ultimately damaging to all (long term).

I still find amazing, while recognizing it is rather widely held, the view that any possible way to extract points from a program is 'good.'

Apparently, after all the legal (semantic? self interested?) arguments were done, Earl Warren put a decision on a case to one last test...

"but is it fair?"

There's nothing to stop them. There's nothing to stop someone buying some extra for a neighbour either. There are times when I've taken all of something that's on sale, or when there has been nothing left. I don't consider that I've done anything wrong, nor that someone else who ran the stock out before me did either. The store should have brought in sufficient stock to ensure supply or should have limited quantities to ensure they don't run out.

you know, people have often criticized me for being 'harsh' on here... but what I find harsher is the blind, greedy, me me me all for me approach that some exhibit. That is a harsh world indeed. amazing.

Why wouldn't it be good? Most of these programs have been in existance for a long time, and they know all of the tricks that people use to maximize thier award earnings.

I may not have read every post, but I don't recall seeing any fault placed on the people who organized these special offers. I think they're the ones who are ultimately responsible for this feeding frenzy that has taken place. If their main goal was to reach as many people as possible with this offer, they should have restricted the number of points that each customer could earn.

Since they didn't do that, and their inventory is limitless, I believe people have the right to assume they can order all of the magazines that they want! If the company underestimates the demand for their products, and are overrun with requests, they're the ones who have inconvenienced the customers.

Although I have no evidence, my guess is that MileSpy didn't cause this promotion to end on their own. Even if they've purchased $50,000 worth of magazines themselves -- this would only be approximately $45,000 worth of airline miles that Gold Points would be providing them. I'm willing to bet that $50,000 isn't even a drop in the bucket compared to the overall response.

I highly doubt that $45,000 would throw Gold Points into some sort of trouble. If it were a major issue, I'm sure that all of the Gold Points reps would have carefully scripted verbiage to use when speaking with ValueMags customers. This hasn't happened, apparently. It just isn't an urgent priority.

I just don't see anything unethical about purchasing any desired amount of a limitless supply of products from a company that obviously is in business to sell as much as possible. If they decide not to set any limits or rules - - how can we possibly blame the consumer!

@# %$* Dialup! Sorry!

[This message has been edited by SpuddBrother (edited 12-28-2001).]

MileSpy is now selling miles at 2.5 cents per mile. How much do airlines sell miles for? Delta is 2 cents per mile plus tax and handling fee.