Bruce puts it perfectly.



------------------
Only one thing endures & that is character.
- Greeley

snake,

You need not stir a hornet's nest by referring to China in the manner that you have.

Many people who speak of China or other countries in the context of "human rights" are often greatly misinformed by the American media's ignorance, deliberate misinformation, and propaganda. Many of the sheeple saying the things they do about the "human rights records" of other countries and what not are merely parroting what they hear, see, believe from the media at unthinking face value.

The US does not itself even greatly exemplify the principles of its own definition of justice and righteousness. Look no further than the many statements made to this point in this thread. That habitual application of double-standards, my friends, is why we Americans are so reviled throughout much of the world. Others don't like it when we call out others for flicking their boogers when the snot from our own noses is hanging off our chins.

[This message has been edited by ETOPS01 (edited 12-23-2001).]

Unfair accusation! Snake was just repeating what someone else had posted. Anyway, having visited and worked in 50 countries, including China (5 trips in the last year and a half), I have yet to find one -- including the U.S. -- where the justice system doesn't assume that you are guilty until proven innocent. The U.S. claims to operate in the reverse manner, but does it really? I don't think so.

Bruce

Bruce, my friend,

That Snake P. was "posting what somebody else did" is my point exactly!

Look, now that I've made my point, I don't want to drag this thread off course. The main point is that the FA in question - and many like her - should no longer be at a job that they can no longer handle. The post-9/11 circumstances should not be an excuse for intolerance and unprofessionalism, but a reminder to us *all* of what we're about, what we're doing, and how we can *truly* honor the blessings we have as Americans by making the most out of them, at our jobs and in our communities. *Not* blind flag-waving, "Yeah! What he said!" solidarity, but contemplated actions that will make a meaningful contribution to our society. Getting one of your customers kicked off the airplane cause you didn't like him for whatever reason may make a great war story to tell your FA buddies. But it sure doesn't bode well for elevating the perception of some FA's as "sky waitresses" incapable of more complex thought, and certainly doesn't ride consistent with the company line to encourage more to take to the skies.

Meaningful action is what counts - not plastering your leased 40-ton SUV with flags and bumper stickers while still driving around aimlessly because you're "on the clock" and are looking to kill the 30 more minutes til quitting time.

[This message has been edited by ETOPS01 (edited 12-23-2001).]

I agree with Bruce as well. The problem is that we, as the passengers, are powerless to object in the present climate. The airlines have to be made accountable for their employees' actions. This particular FA, and pilot, should be severely reprimanded. If they have a problem flying with passengers, they can leave their jobs and find something more suitable.

This should definitely be posted in the AA forum.

Perhaps I'm missing the point as I often do but wouldn't this not have happened if the cell phone was turned off in the first place when you were asked? I'm not saying that it was fair or right that you were asked but complying with crew members instructions are required. Maybe this FA was responsible for the area you were sitting in and was taking care of her responsibilities. Maybe the higher ground would have been more satifying. Lots of maybes.

Many things may not seem fair or right but there are the appropriate response. I go to court over the speeding ticket rather than not sign it or blast the police officer. I comply with a supervisors directive and file a grievance if I disagree. I am asked to do something on board the plane and I comply and handle the situation at the appropriate level later. So it goes with most situations as someone else is usually driving the bus.

These are my thoughts and I think there are many "right" options in the same situation. Yours may have been right for you. If I am not satisfied with a situation I first ask "was there anything that I could have done to have made it better." It helps me put it into perspective.

Happy Holidays and flying.

Dick

I never got kicked off the plane, but it ALMOST happened to me at La Guardia once with UA. Luckily it was a ground staffperson as opposed to a FA that was the problem.

You never know what's going to set someone off...I honestly can't remember what it was that I did or said to upset the UA person I mention, but I clearly remember him threatening to keep me off the flight and to call the police, and my thinking OH MY GOSH this is such a joke. Actually, the thing that saved me from getting kicked of in my case WAS the pilot and FA's on the flight. I was in my seat, and other employees had heard/seen everything. They gave me sympathetic looks and a couple even appologized to me. When the screwed up staffer came on the plane, and told the pilot to kick me off the plane, the other ground staff and flight attendants that had seen what happened told the pilot that I was fine and basically told him not to listen to the irate ground staffer.

I was pretty rattled and angry and upset anyway, and did contact Customer Relations and complain. They told me to write a letter which would be put in his file, which I did.

I agree, unless you have allot of time on your hands and a good lawyer on retainer, playing the hero and getting arrested probably isn't the way to go. I think that some small measure of accountability can be gained through small claims court. Luckily in SnakeP's case the Ground supe sorted it all for him but if he had been left hanging surely he could have made an application for redress in small claims court. I filled out a complaint against TWA for refund of change fees when it was their mistake and they didn't even respond so I won by default. Nice thing about small claims is that you avoid the $200/hr fees and all it takes to file (at least here in St Louis) is to put down your compliant on a special form and send it in to the court.

Do you mean, just submit?

Sometimes.

I've spent pretty much the last 30 years being a jerk (I'm not suggesting that anyone here is one ) and have finally come to the conclusion that most things are relatively insignificant. I've found that I'm a much happier person (and the people around me) when I let these things go or deal with them after I've had time to think about them. This works for me. I apologize if I have come off as preaching or implying that others should take the same approach as I do.

Sue. Sue with all your might. Sue for all those who timidly submit while airline employees with power complexes bully them around.

For what? Being removed from the aircraft for failing to obey the lawful order of an inflight crew member? Good luck.

Don't get me wrong - Snake was hosed here, and he should have gotten something out of AA because AA should have known that their employee went a little beyond what was reasonable. Doesn't mean, however, that was they did was illegal or gives rise to a breach of contract claim. It is within AA's rights to tell you not to use a cell phone on board the aircraft. They did, Snake didn't turn it off. End of story. Should it have been the end of the story? No, because it was stupid, but litigation is definitely not the answer here.

Greg (Esq.)

Hello Snake and everyone.

I'd like to address the issue regarding the cell phone from my "new FA" perspective.

We make a "two minute prior to closing the boarding door" announcement that instructs passengers to turn off and stow cell phones, etc. If this announcement has been made, I need to make sure passengers are complying. You may think I am asking you/telling you to put your cell phone away because I'm concerned about "your safety and the safety of those around you," or because I'm on a power trip, but in reality there are two other reasons behind my sometimes urgent request!

In FA training, there is some emphasis placed on the FAA inspectors' ability to impose potentially enormous fines on the airline and FA's individually. Maybe I should not admit it, but when I see someone with a cell phone on, or a little old lady clutching her handbag in her lap, I am usually thinking, "What if an FAA inspector is sitting across the aisle and I don't make that cell phone request, or wrestle the purse from this woman?" Maybe I'm not thinking completely rationally - I don't think there are "hidden" FAA inspectors on board, but it helps me to do my job. My understanding is these inspectors make themselves known, but I'd rather be cautious and safe and not receive any fines.

Additionally, if I walk past you and don't instruct you to turn off your phone, and the very senior FA who happens to be walking a few rows behind me sees your phone on and also realizes that I failed to do my job, well...enough said!

Please keep in mind that most of us are just doing our jobs.

Thanks!

well said rn. i assume you are a fa from sea. the fters need a decoder ring to understand handles. all of us need to be more docile in these times except when somebody needs to be subdued. i assume the lol [little old lady] [also means laugh out loud] need to put her carry on under the seat. we are with you.

Maybe you don't mind wasting a night in jail, and then paying a lawyer $200-300 per hour to get you out of there, but I do.

Snake did the right thing. Fine, they throw you off the flight. Even though it was utter and total BS, fighting them on the plane would only have resulted in jail time for Snake. Even if the judge dismissed the case once it got there, you still have to hire a lawyer.

Sorry, buddy, but it ain't worth it.