Following are the criteria that can be used for comparing any program.

Number of properties
Hilton wins this category hands down. No matter where you go, there is bound to be a Hilton property there.

Earning capability

Base
For Starwood elite, a typical business stay - 3 night stay at $150 would net 1350 points. That is equal to 1687 miles if you take the 20:25 conversion.Counting points, you have 1350 but you still need 650 for a free room.

For Hilton elite, 4500 Base + 2250 (50% Elite Bonus) + 500 (Airline Partner Bonus ) + 250 (Car Rental). = 7500 /5 = 1500 + 500 miles = 2000 miles.

Looking at it, it debunks the common perception that SPG is more rewarding 1:1 vs HHonors 5:1 regarding miles. Regarding points, HHonors beats SPG hands down. More often than not, stays are short than long. The shorter the stay, the more the above number skews towards HHonors because of the 500 mile bonus per stay. And I am not counting the 4K threshold bonus.

Promotions
One of the most common promotions for both are Double Dipping and Free Nights and weekends. Douple dip ( sometimes with a twist ) doubles your points and mileage earning capacity. 500 miles now becomes 1000 miles which is a big bonus. Though it takes 10 stays to earn two free weekends, you could stay at low end and redeem at high end properties. This makes it a much better promotion at the first look. The only catch is that redeeming the stays is time bound. That, for me, is a big disadvantage.

Keeping in mind the consistent 50K promotions at Hilton, both can be rated equally on promotions. One way for SPG to come ahead in this category is to remove the deadline on redeeming the free weekends and let the members choose when they want to.

Upgrades and special amenities

Both Hilton and Starwood pamper their elite members with enough upgrades. Across the board, Hilton has a much better coverage with club floors and free breakfasts ( even at Hamptons ), even though it is a big issue on the forum right now.

SPG and HHonors can be rated equally on upgrades, though SPG has an edge. On amenities, in my opinion, Hilton comes out ahead.

Redeeming capability

Starwood wins it hands down. It does not matter if Hilton is able to give a room 9 times out of 10. "Anytime / Anywhere" is the way to go.

Customer Service
At elite level, I would rate both of them equal though SPG again has the edge.

Partner network
It is Hilton all the way. Miles dump, points dump, car rental, disney tickets, cruises, Flowers, etc. You name it has it. Starwood excels in one category. Its AMEX Plat card. No one has anything close to it.


Number of Properties : Hilton
Earning Capability : Hilton
Promotions : Hilton & Starwood
Upgrades & Amenities : Hilton & Starwood
Redeeming awards : Starwood
Customer Service : Starwood
Partner Network : Hilton

This is a personal opinion.
My favoured program is HHonors. Look at it any way. If you want miles, Hilton gives you more. If you want stays, again Hilton gives you more. Moreover, convert miles into points and you almost always stay for free at Hilton. These points can also be redeemed for car rentals which is a big plus. When free nights and weekends come, I rake up stays at 4 Points. And my main mileage card for all expenses ( except when staying at Hilton ) is Starwood AMEX Platinum.

Somehow I feel, it gives me the best of both worlds.

-----------------
In the above comparison, I have not included Marriott. Is it because my worst ever hotel stay was my first ever stay at a Marriott ( Niagara Falls ). . Earlier in the game, if we get burned with a program, its out. Period. And I have seen this tendency with a lot of FT'ers here.



[This message has been edited by Bourne (edited 07-19-2001).]

Bourne, thanks for posting...

I've refrained from jumping back in this thread, as my experiences w/ Hilton were counter to what the last few posters had commented on (FWIW, I did call the properties in question re: award stays...I was reminded more than once just who "called the shots", particularly when a highly inflexible Revenue Manager found it necessary to raise her voice & reiterate in a rather rude & forceful manner that she determined whether any exception to the capacity control was allowed, & she made it quite clear I was wasting my time [despite my plea for an exception re: my wanting to spend my birthday there & the obvious reality that it would mean a lot to me]).


This certainly rings true for me...I bailed on Starwood at first, only due to the consistency of some problems I experienced (I later concluded I should have given a U.S. property a shot before bailing [importantly, I had also not complained to their customer service department--I didn't know they would be so positively different])...I then hopped around, trying to determine which program I would shoot for status in...when it came to Hilton, however, my business abruptly went elsewhere after a series of stunningly problematic stays, & the inexcusable lack of customer service to address such.


Yep, that's true...& it's a plus...but I'll still find somewhere else to stay after what I experienced w/ them during my last stays...


Okay, I've gotta say something about this. First, one needs to qualify the use of "elite", for this to be fair, given that Hilton has different earning levels associated w/ Gold vs. Platinum. In addition, & importantly, Hilton has different conversion rates for points-to-miles, so a comparison to Starwood's program requires that this be taken into account.

Given the above scenario which has been laid out, which is for the Hilton Platinum level & the Starwood Gold & Platinum levels -&- a conversion rate of points-to-miles of 5:1, which only holds true if redeeming a minimum of 50,000 HHonors points to airlines other than American or LanChile (for which the conversion rate is more favorable, & requires a smaller # of HHonors points, to boot)...

For a Hilton Gold, & the associated 25% Elite Bonus (vs. 50% for Platinum), the above scenario results in 4500 Base + 1125 (25% Elite Bonus) + 500 (Airline Partner Bonus) + 250 (Car Rental Partner) = 6375 HHonors points--which cannot be redeemed for miles until a greater # is obtained (minimum levels exist for redemption of Starpoints-to-miles if one is a non-Platinum SPG member).

Applying the various conversion rates to the 6375 HHonors points (for non-American Airlines & non-LanChile conversions), the following 3 results are associated w/ the minimum redemption levels of 10k, 20k, & 50k HHonors points: 956+500=1456 miles, 1115+500=1615 miles, & 1275+500=1775 miles, respectively. If converted to AA miles, the results become (for redemption levels of 10k, 20k, & 50k): 1275+500=1775 miles, 1775 miles, & 1530+500=2030 miles, respectively.

If the mid-tier comparison is kept solely to that of best-redemption-level-obtainable, the numbers are 1687 miles from Starpoints vs. 1775 miles from HHonors points (for non-AA & non-LanChile conversion) or 2030 miles from HHonors points if converted to AA miles.

In addition, if the points were not converted, the reality is that one would be closer to a free stay w/ 1687 Starpoints than one would be w/ 6375 HHonors points (unless using an HHonors Point Stretcher award, which discounts the # of points needed by 40%, & results in the lowest obtainable free night award being available [in theory] for 6000 HHonors points).

There are, however, HHonors threshold bonuses (though this imposes a time constraint, technically [re: earning period])...

In addition, regarding award redemption for free stays, Starwood offers a 5th night free when a 4-night award stay is redeemed (for a Category 3, 4, 5, or 6 property [the value of such increases, accordingly]).


Getting back to miles...

A key thing to note, regardless, is that the 500 miles from the Hilton double dip obviously do not require any conversion--they are deposited into the FF acct, & not the HHonors acct.

Another important thing to note, particularly as prevalence of properties--& specifically re: Hampton Inns--enters into the discussion, is that one does not obtain a 500 mile double dip for stays @ Hampton Inns--one obtains only 100 miles (something which Hilton ought to change...there are many Hampton Inns which cost more to stay @ than other HHonors-affiliated properties [even ones just down the road from one another, as is the case not far from where I sit right this minute]).


To fill out the Platinum HHonors #s re: the comparison above, conversion of the 7500 HHonors points to miles, & @ the 10k, 20k, & 50k HHonors points redemption levels (& for non-AA, non-LanChile), results in: 1125+500=1625 miles, 1312+500=1812 miles, & 1500+500=2000 miles, respectively. Conversion to AA miles, & @ the 10k, 20k, & 50k redemption levels, becomes: 1500+500=2000 miles, 2000 miles, & 1800+500=2300 miles, respectively.


Another important thing to keep in mind when comparing the value associated w/ 100% conversion to miles, is that folks who have automatic deposit of Starpoints to miles (1) miss out on the 5000 mile bonus for redemption of 20,000 Starpoints-to-miles -&- (2) there are various bonus mile promos for those who have Starpoints automatically deposited into a FF acct.


I do find the HHonors minimum redemption levels a bit much. If one were to place a $ "threshold" on such, the minimum level of 10,000 HHonors points could represent (sans any elite bonus) $1000 in expenditures. For Starwood, there is no minimum redemption level for Platinums (if Hilton offers this same waiver to Platinums, I am unaware of such). For Golds, the minimum redemption level of 1500 Starpoints could represent $750 in expenditures. For non-elites, 2000 Starpoints could represent $1000 in expenditures.

Lastly, while I have not redeemed any HHonors points for miles, it appears as though there are set increments in which one must redeem for miles--which is not the case w/ Starwood, from what I understand.


You've no doubt read my "rant" (in this thread) about Hilton's award availability re: using HHonors points for a free stay. I'll refrain from repeating it here. Suffice it to say, if one wishes to redeem points for free stays, HHonors points definitely do not beat Starpoints in my book. If you're talking about miles, well, then it's a different ballgame--to an extent (you yourself admit to having a Starwood AmEx...I don't know if you use the Starpoints for award stays or miles [or both], but you aren't using a Hilton AmEx for non-Hilton purchases, which is important to note, & understandable).


Yes, that's true, specifically if examined on a miles basis.

It's important to note that if one obtains HHonors threshold bonuses every quarter, that can equate to a minimum of one free night per year from that alone.


I know you're referring to the Double Double Dip...& yes, it's a killer promotion, & one which can easily result in thousands of additional miles (not to mention HHonors points [& subsequently miles, again ]) for those who have frequent stays during the (rather extensive) promo period.

When I think of all of the miles I'm missing as a result of not staying @ Hilton properties, I try to quickly think of something else...


Correction--10 nights, not 10 stays.


Yes, I am not a fan of the time constraint aspect. One must admit, however, that it is rather amazing to get 4 free nights @ practically any Starwood property in the world for having stayed 10 nights @ any SPG property in the world--even if @ a relatively inexpensive property (the net result, overall, can be incredibly value-packed).


I will continue to issue "demerits" to HHonors for their capacity controls (regardless of whether they maintained blackout dates)...the value of a promotion is ultimately gauged by what the bonuses obtained can yield...if one prefers miles to free stays, then one might have a different opinion of the HHonors promotions than one who prefers free stays to miles (or @ least relatively easy redemption for either).

I'll quit harping on that...


While this would obviously be very welcome & appreciated, I cannot help wondering whether the constraints are in any way imposed by AmEx, for potential cost-related aspects that they want to have a count on by a certain date, given their partnership in the Free Weekends promos.


I cannot help noticing that it seems as though more HHonors Platinum elites "defect" to SPG than vice versa (@ least from various posts on this board, though I know there are many who straddle both programs). Many of those who have "defected" have commented on the difference in upgrade percentage & elite amenities. In addition, most are blown away by the positive realities associated w/ SPG Platinum Concierges.


I don't know about the club floor aspect, but as for free breakfasts, Hilton definitely has the upper hand...though my sleep took precedence over the time constraints re: breakfast availability, so I frequently did not partake of the free breakfasts.


I definitely have a better upgrade percentage w/ Starwood. As for amenities, I think the most important comparison comes @ the Platinum level, & I cannot speak to such personally, as my Platinum-equivalent # of stays last year was not concentrated in one program.


Yep...it rocks...


The difference is quite large when it comes to my personal experience.


They do have an extensive partner network. And it is pretty powerful that one can convert one's airline miles to HHonors points (assuming one can then redeem them for a stay, which I never could, but I know others can & have).


Starwood excels in a few partner categories that are noteworthy, but the Starwood AmEx is one incredible offering.


If my experience w/ Hilton's award redemption & customer service had been different (though it would be a huge plus if the upgrade percentage had been better, as well), I likely would be straddling both programs.

But given the intense negative experience I had w/ Hilton, & their capacity controls serving as an effective block to my award stay attempts, there are only two circumstances under which I could return to a Hilton property...

One could go into very extensive analysis about which frequent stay guest is the best, but it depends on a lot of variables, and the one which may be the best for me may not be the best for you. In my opinion there is no one "best hotel stay program".

I think the best program is the one that will make you stay at their property even if the properties are mostly dumps..... so i'm still thinking which one is the best.

------------------
Al

ILITE-
that has got to be the longest single post ever! Is there a prize for that?

LOL - I just saw your post, pointman...

In response to your statement, & to answer your question:

1) I'm uncertain as to whether that's the longest single post--there must be at least one post that's longer...there are longwinded diatribes from time to time (such as the one being referenced)... LOL

2) As for whether there's a prize...getting crap off one's chest is its own reward... LOL

I agree with PG--the best one is the one you think is the best one and suits your travel needs/preferences.

For where I travel, Hilton has more properties and for where I want rewards, Hilton has more properties. As a neophyte in HHonors rewards, I am two out of two for reward booking during high season (Mexico and UK), although once I did phone the property directly to secure the room (London in high season).

If I want to go to Yaounde Cameroon or Tunis, Tunisia, with over 2000 properties worldwide vs just over 600 for Starwood, Hilton can more often (but not always) get me a room.

The promotions for Hilton this last year were amazing and far surpassed what I could have earned in Starwood.

Starwood has much better hotels on average, but I have stayed in some very nice Hilton properties that beat the hell out of the Starwood offerings at the same location.

In the 4 state area adjacent to where I live, there are 16 Hilton properties and only 2 Starwood.

Paradoxically, there are more Starwood properties in my home country, Canada and home province, Alberta (39 Starwood vs only 26 Hilton properties in Canada) but my travels take me to a variety of places where I can more easily find good Hilton properties. I also travel a lot of places where finding a Red Roof Inn would be a real asset!

I have to say that I used to collect a LOT of Hilton HHonors points staying at the Waldorf. Nice program and that hotel is great about upgrades and service. Problem is that the customer service for HHonors is pretty lousy so I have moved over to Starwood and have grown to love the W and the St Regis. Still wish I could use the Starwood program and stay at the Waldorf.

That's paradocsically!

(Sorry, couldn't resist!)

Eventhough I have never dealt with Starwood Customer Service, I have to disagree about HHonors' CS. Few times that I contacted them about problems...they resolved in a very timely and professional manner.

How about a comfortable bed! The Westin Heavenly beds are so nice.

I am so tired of the number of hotels who think they can save money by installing inexpensive beds.

The primary reason for staying at a hotel is to sleep!

Alfred--