General Comments about Frequent Guest Programs
Jul 9, 2001 | 11:03 pm
#16
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Santa Barbara, California
Posts: 20
Dear Starwood Lurker:
I was just looking for a Hotel at Schipol Airport in Amsterdam next weekend, Sheraton has a hotel offering a “Hot Rate” of $121 Euro vs. Hilton at $141 Euro. Both hotels are equally nice and I am sure I would be comfortable in either property. Even though it was more expensive I chose Hilton because its’ frequent stay program offers far more value to me. Please let me explain!
I would like to inform you first: I have been a member of the Sheraton /Starwood program for a very long time. I remember when Sheraton charged either thirty-five or fifty dollars a year to be a member, and was happy to see it evolve into a very good frequent stay program. I have been a Platinum Starwood member since the inception of the new Starwood program. In February this year my status was reduced to Gold because I did not have enough stays last year. The reason my stays decreased was I found a better program and it was the Hilton product.
Contrary to popular belief Hilton is far more rewarding than Starwood. A typical hotel stay for me when I include meals, telephone calls, and parking, costs about $150 dollars. As a Platinum member in Starwood I would receive 450 points for my stay. A Diamond in Hilton receives not ten but 15 points for each dollar spent. In addition to the base points I also receive 250 points for my car rental and 500 more points for using an affiliated airline. A $150 dollar stay in Hilton results in at least 3,000 Hhonors points. In addition to the points I receive at least 500 frequent flyer miles.
But the points do not stop there, Hilton is renowned for its promotion points, they have recently been offering both double points and miles with American Express. Each quarter they allow a four thousand-point bonus for the first four stays, and in the past two quarters they have offered easily attainable 50,000-point bonuses promotions.
In my first year with Hilton I have about forty stays and have acquired over 300,000 points and 30,000 airline miles. Forty stays with Sheraton could yield between 18,000 to 20,000 Starwood points, which could be converted to 25,000 miles.
In all fairness I should point out that Starwood has had many free weekend promotions in the past year and these promotions would have some value to people who do not stay in Hotels a great deal. The problem I had with the free weekend promotions was the nights could not be transferred to a relative, had to be used in a short time span, and the last thing I wanted after a week of being in hotels: was a few more nights in a hotel.
As a Platinum Starwood member I was upgraded only about half the time and extremely rarely to a suite. I would say that as a Hilton Diamond I am not treated much differently than my experience as Starwood Platinum and the upgrades are about the same in each program. Where I do find a big difference is with breakfast, I am almost always treated to breakfast with Hilton and could count on one hand the number of breakfasts I was offered with Starwood. This is an important feature to me and I enjoy eating in the hotel quickly and inexpensively. My company gives me forty dollars a day for food if I can put a few bucks in my pocket eating a free breakfast? Thank you.
Hilton offers a series of VIP awards for its most frequent travelers, as an example, for 100,000 points, just one third of what I received in the past year, I could stay in Hawaii for six nights. With Hilton I could give this stay to a friend or relative. For the twenty thousand points with Starwood or a whole years worth of stays I could receive an award of just two nights stay in a comparable Hawaii property. Sheraton really has no elite level awards.
What Sheraton does have and a reason I keep a large balance in my Starwood account is the no blackouts rules. You can travel when you want as long as a room is available. I like this and wish Hilton would institute it but not if they had to devalue the points to the Starwood level. I have had good luck so far with award bookings with Hilton but I am not planning on New Years Eve in Time Square this winter.
Hilton has far more properties than Starwood and more earning opportunities. Many of Starwood properties require more points to stay in each year. They stated with just four award categories and are now up to six and the top two levels have sub categories.
I know that Starwood gets a lot of awards and raves for its program and I have had good luck with it also. It just does not offer enough rewards to keep me interested anymore. Sorry Starwood lurker, I have been a lurker here for a long while also and you posting has finally made me come out of my shell. Good luck convincing anyone your program is better.
I was just looking for a Hotel at Schipol Airport in Amsterdam next weekend, Sheraton has a hotel offering a “Hot Rate” of $121 Euro vs. Hilton at $141 Euro. Both hotels are equally nice and I am sure I would be comfortable in either property. Even though it was more expensive I chose Hilton because its’ frequent stay program offers far more value to me. Please let me explain!
I would like to inform you first: I have been a member of the Sheraton /Starwood program for a very long time. I remember when Sheraton charged either thirty-five or fifty dollars a year to be a member, and was happy to see it evolve into a very good frequent stay program. I have been a Platinum Starwood member since the inception of the new Starwood program. In February this year my status was reduced to Gold because I did not have enough stays last year. The reason my stays decreased was I found a better program and it was the Hilton product.
Contrary to popular belief Hilton is far more rewarding than Starwood. A typical hotel stay for me when I include meals, telephone calls, and parking, costs about $150 dollars. As a Platinum member in Starwood I would receive 450 points for my stay. A Diamond in Hilton receives not ten but 15 points for each dollar spent. In addition to the base points I also receive 250 points for my car rental and 500 more points for using an affiliated airline. A $150 dollar stay in Hilton results in at least 3,000 Hhonors points. In addition to the points I receive at least 500 frequent flyer miles.
But the points do not stop there, Hilton is renowned for its promotion points, they have recently been offering both double points and miles with American Express. Each quarter they allow a four thousand-point bonus for the first four stays, and in the past two quarters they have offered easily attainable 50,000-point bonuses promotions.
In my first year with Hilton I have about forty stays and have acquired over 300,000 points and 30,000 airline miles. Forty stays with Sheraton could yield between 18,000 to 20,000 Starwood points, which could be converted to 25,000 miles.
In all fairness I should point out that Starwood has had many free weekend promotions in the past year and these promotions would have some value to people who do not stay in Hotels a great deal. The problem I had with the free weekend promotions was the nights could not be transferred to a relative, had to be used in a short time span, and the last thing I wanted after a week of being in hotels: was a few more nights in a hotel.
As a Platinum Starwood member I was upgraded only about half the time and extremely rarely to a suite. I would say that as a Hilton Diamond I am not treated much differently than my experience as Starwood Platinum and the upgrades are about the same in each program. Where I do find a big difference is with breakfast, I am almost always treated to breakfast with Hilton and could count on one hand the number of breakfasts I was offered with Starwood. This is an important feature to me and I enjoy eating in the hotel quickly and inexpensively. My company gives me forty dollars a day for food if I can put a few bucks in my pocket eating a free breakfast? Thank you.
Hilton offers a series of VIP awards for its most frequent travelers, as an example, for 100,000 points, just one third of what I received in the past year, I could stay in Hawaii for six nights. With Hilton I could give this stay to a friend or relative. For the twenty thousand points with Starwood or a whole years worth of stays I could receive an award of just two nights stay in a comparable Hawaii property. Sheraton really has no elite level awards.
What Sheraton does have and a reason I keep a large balance in my Starwood account is the no blackouts rules. You can travel when you want as long as a room is available. I like this and wish Hilton would institute it but not if they had to devalue the points to the Starwood level. I have had good luck so far with award bookings with Hilton but I am not planning on New Years Eve in Time Square this winter.
Hilton has far more properties than Starwood and more earning opportunities. Many of Starwood properties require more points to stay in each year. They stated with just four award categories and are now up to six and the top two levels have sub categories.
I know that Starwood gets a lot of awards and raves for its program and I have had good luck with it also. It just does not offer enough rewards to keep me interested anymore. Sorry Starwood lurker, I have been a lurker here for a long while also and you posting has finally made me come out of my shell. Good luck convincing anyone your program is better.
Jul 10, 2001 | 5:16 am
#17
Guest
Posts: n/a
Linbe:
Excellent analysis and welcome to the board!
I would just add that for earning (not necessarily ease in redeenming) points for hotel stays, Hilton is tops due to its promos, etc. I believe you forgot to mention the credit cards that earn great bonus points. However, for those who wish to earn and/or reap mainly FF miles from their stays, then Starwood may be better. However, I have always viewed apples with apples and oranges with oranges, and see the Starwood program as sort of an adjunct to to a FF program and that it is not that generous for obtaining free stays, unless you are a very heavy user/spender for hotel space.
I see Hilton's conversion ability as only an easy way to "save" orphan miles and/or top off an account (Hilton or an airline's) and do not think that a wholesale conversion from HHonors points to FF miles is worth it. Better to get a FF mileage earning credit card or stay at a Starwood if that is your inclination!
Excellent analysis and welcome to the board!
I would just add that for earning (not necessarily ease in redeenming) points for hotel stays, Hilton is tops due to its promos, etc. I believe you forgot to mention the credit cards that earn great bonus points. However, for those who wish to earn and/or reap mainly FF miles from their stays, then Starwood may be better. However, I have always viewed apples with apples and oranges with oranges, and see the Starwood program as sort of an adjunct to to a FF program and that it is not that generous for obtaining free stays, unless you are a very heavy user/spender for hotel space.
I see Hilton's conversion ability as only an easy way to "save" orphan miles and/or top off an account (Hilton or an airline's) and do not think that a wholesale conversion from HHonors points to FF miles is worth it. Better to get a FF mileage earning credit card or stay at a Starwood if that is your inclination!
Jul 10, 2001 | 6:04 am
#18
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: south of WAS DC
Posts: 10,131
At least 4 important items have not been brought up yet.
1. Any of these afinity cards not AMEX/Diners? i.e. Visa/MC?
2. Conversion of non-affinity group Dollar/Euro charges (or some standard unit) to Airline Miles.
3. Airlines accepting transfers (LH is not on the Starwood transfer list of 20 or so airlines).
4. Max charge miles per year.
jer
1. Any of these afinity cards not AMEX/Diners? i.e. Visa/MC?
2. Conversion of non-affinity group Dollar/Euro charges (or some standard unit) to Airline Miles.
3. Airlines accepting transfers (LH is not on the Starwood transfer list of 20 or so airlines).
4. Max charge miles per year.
jer
Jul 10, 2001 | 6:38 am
#19
Original Member
Join Date: May 1998
Location: Reno, NV (RNO)
Programs: AA LT Platinum, AS, UA Premier Silver, DL, HHonors Gold, Marriott LT Titanium, Hyatt, IHG Platinum
Posts: 4,723
Well, I'll mention one thing that hasn't been very prominent in this discussion......can you say...capacity controls. Starwood's lack of controls puts it far ahead of Hilton HHonors in this regard. I will gladly accept slightly less point earning potential for the capability to redeem points where/when I want without hassle. Hilton Diamond offers almost no capacity controls, but at lower levels it can be difficult to get award stays. Thoughts?
Jul 10, 2001 | 7:33 am
#20
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: May 1999
Posts: 46,817
Yes, excellent assessment(s) and particularly linbe! 
"...Where I do find a big difference is with breakfast, I am almost always treated to breakfast with Hilton and could count on one hand the number of breakfasts I was offered with Starwood. This is an important feature to me and I enjoy eating in the hotel quickly and inexpensively...
I absolutely concur!
The lack of Club Floors at Starwood, particularly at otherwise lovely Westin properties, is somewhat disconcerting to me!
And at the lower end properties, where I admittedly only very rarely stay, Hilton's Hampton Inn and also even Marriott has a big edge in my opinion over Four Points. A free minmal continental breakfast would go far to try to equalize the differential IMHO!
And Marriot is seemingly the most consistent and reliable for real UG's and Randy personally confirmed this for me! Likelihood of upgrades to Club floors at these properties according to recent data revealed to me by Randy (at live chat 8/15) are Marriott (nearly 90%) > Starwood > Hyatt > Hilton (75%)
http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttr...ML/002249.html
Yet, in SPG's arsenal is the fact that you almost never get the truly nonsensical and upsetting rate "crap" where there are no pints, no miles, no double dip, or no breakfast, or no UG's, or no amenity, or no whatever with the rate you have booked! I absolutely HATE this kind of stuff and truly it helps me book away from Hilton. And as a Hilton Gold, I've also often wondered about the relative value of being/becoming a Hilton Diamond.
BTW, I also love SPG and being Platinum!
And both provide wonderful assistance via Adam and William! Thanks VERY much to both of you!
"...Where I do find a big difference is with breakfast, I am almost always treated to breakfast with Hilton and could count on one hand the number of breakfasts I was offered with Starwood. This is an important feature to me and I enjoy eating in the hotel quickly and inexpensively...
I absolutely concur!
The lack of Club Floors at Starwood, particularly at otherwise lovely Westin properties, is somewhat disconcerting to me!
And at the lower end properties, where I admittedly only very rarely stay, Hilton's Hampton Inn and also even Marriott has a big edge in my opinion over Four Points. A free minmal continental breakfast would go far to try to equalize the differential IMHO!
And Marriot is seemingly the most consistent and reliable for real UG's and Randy personally confirmed this for me! Likelihood of upgrades to Club floors at these properties according to recent data revealed to me by Randy (at live chat 8/15) are Marriott (nearly 90%) > Starwood > Hyatt > Hilton (75%)
http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttr...ML/002249.html
Yet, in SPG's arsenal is the fact that you almost never get the truly nonsensical and upsetting rate "crap" where there are no pints, no miles, no double dip, or no breakfast, or no UG's, or no amenity, or no whatever with the rate you have booked! I absolutely HATE this kind of stuff and truly it helps me book away from Hilton. And as a Hilton Gold, I've also often wondered about the relative value of being/becoming a Hilton Diamond.
BTW, I also love SPG and being Platinum!
And both provide wonderful assistance via Adam and William! Thanks VERY much to both of you!
Jul 10, 2001 | 9:00 am
#21
Guest
Posts: n/a
Slawecki --
Hilton has a no fee AMEX AND a no fee Visa.
The former is a 5 points/3points split, and the latter is a 3 points/2 points split.
MileKing --
I can concur with your assessment insofar it applies to frequent road warriors/travelers. However for those who do not travel that often, then beefing up their Starwood or Marriot account is next to impossible, and therefore, Hilton with its very generous credit card offerings and bi-maothly super 50,000 point bonuses, not to mention the Fall/Winter and Summer double points bonuses, really leaves the others in the dust, as point earning and future hotel stays go.
For these people, me, Diamond is unrealistic, Platinum too, and to achieve points necessary in either Starwood or Marriot for such free stays, is well nigh impossible (since stays are infequent); therfore, it is Hilton for me!
Hilton has a no fee AMEX AND a no fee Visa.
The former is a 5 points/3points split, and the latter is a 3 points/2 points split.
MileKing --
I can concur with your assessment insofar it applies to frequent road warriors/travelers. However for those who do not travel that often, then beefing up their Starwood or Marriot account is next to impossible, and therefore, Hilton with its very generous credit card offerings and bi-maothly super 50,000 point bonuses, not to mention the Fall/Winter and Summer double points bonuses, really leaves the others in the dust, as point earning and future hotel stays go.
For these people, me, Diamond is unrealistic, Platinum too, and to achieve points necessary in either Starwood or Marriot for such free stays, is well nigh impossible (since stays are infequent); therfore, it is Hilton for me!
Jul 10, 2001 | 9:02 am
#22
Guest
Posts: n/a
Slawecki --
Hilton has a no fee AMEX AND a no fee Visa.
The former is a 5 points/3points split, and the latter is a 3 points/2 points split.
MileKing --
I can concur with your assessment insofar it applies to frequent road warriors/travelers. However for those who do not travel that often, then beefing up their Starwood or Marriot account is next to impossible, and therefore, Hilton with its very generous credit card offerings and bi-maothly super 50,000 point bonuses, not to mention the Fall/Winter and Summer double points bonuses, really leaves the others in the dust, as point earning and future hotel stays go.
For these people, me, Diamond is unrealistic, Platinum too, and to achieve points necessary in either Starwood or Marriot for such free stays, is well nigh impossible (since stays are infequent); therfore, it is Hilton for me!
Hilton has a no fee AMEX AND a no fee Visa.
The former is a 5 points/3points split, and the latter is a 3 points/2 points split.
MileKing --
I can concur with your assessment insofar it applies to frequent road warriors/travelers. However for those who do not travel that often, then beefing up their Starwood or Marriot account is next to impossible, and therefore, Hilton with its very generous credit card offerings and bi-maothly super 50,000 point bonuses, not to mention the Fall/Winter and Summer double points bonuses, really leaves the others in the dust, as point earning and future hotel stays go.
For these people, me, Diamond is unrealistic, Platinum too, and to achieve points necessary in either Starwood or Marriot for such free stays, is well nigh impossible (since stays are infequent); therfore, it is Hilton for me!
Jul 10, 2001 | 1:46 pm
#23
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: East Orange, NJ
Posts: 326
linbe: Excellent Post!
I have to say that I love having the Starwood Lurker around. I and love the Starwood programs no capacity controls. But I have given up trying to earn points in the SPG program except for using the Sheraton Starpoints AMEX.
This seems to be the only way a non-road-warrior can earn big time points in the Starwood program. I like the program for that reason...I like the card. My primary use of the SPG program is as a de facto airline mileage storehouse.
When I'm angling for hotel stays, however, I almost always go for HHonors, I mean where else can you get 2000 points every quarter just for changing your profile?
And if you use you HHonors Amex for your stays, you get mega-points (but I ONLY use my HHonors AMEX for HHonors stays). After every Hilton stay, after all the partner bonuses and promotions, I always end up with more points than I expected. After a recent Westin stay, I just got the plain old points plus elite bonus. Ho-hum!
The only advantage I see for SPG is their card, and their non-capacity control policy. Hilton is BAD about capacity controls, but you can often circumvent them by calling the hotel directly. I've gotten stays this way even in sold out hotels!
Plus just look at the forums, The Hilton forum has surpassed Starwood in the number of posts, and there is a palatable excitement there.
So for me, I choose HHonors!
Mac
------------------
ˇViaja con Dios!
I have to say that I love having the Starwood Lurker around. I and love the Starwood programs no capacity controls. But I have given up trying to earn points in the SPG program except for using the Sheraton Starpoints AMEX.
This seems to be the only way a non-road-warrior can earn big time points in the Starwood program. I like the program for that reason...I like the card. My primary use of the SPG program is as a de facto airline mileage storehouse.
When I'm angling for hotel stays, however, I almost always go for HHonors, I mean where else can you get 2000 points every quarter just for changing your profile?
And if you use you HHonors Amex for your stays, you get mega-points (but I ONLY use my HHonors AMEX for HHonors stays). After every Hilton stay, after all the partner bonuses and promotions, I always end up with more points than I expected. After a recent Westin stay, I just got the plain old points plus elite bonus. Ho-hum!
The only advantage I see for SPG is their card, and their non-capacity control policy. Hilton is BAD about capacity controls, but you can often circumvent them by calling the hotel directly. I've gotten stays this way even in sold out hotels!
Plus just look at the forums, The Hilton forum has surpassed Starwood in the number of posts, and there is a palatable excitement there.
So for me, I choose HHonors!
Mac
------------------
ˇViaja con Dios!
Jul 10, 2001 | 3:33 pm
#24
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Arlington, VA USA
Posts: 708
Thanks for the calculation but to be fair let's include the bonuses for HHonors elite members:
Silver VIP Membership
Point Bonuses: Earn a 15% bonus on all HHonors Base points credited while you are a Silver VIP member. Silver VIP members will receive 2,000 HHonors bonus points after four paid HHonors stays as a Silver VIP in a calendar quarter.
Gold VIP Membership
Point Bonuses: Earn a 25% bonus on all HHonors Base points credited while you are a Gold VIP. Plus, Gold VIP members enjoy 4,000 HHonors bonus points after four paid HHonors stays as a Gold VIP in a calendar quarter.
Diamond VIP Membership
Point Bonuses: Earn a 50% bonus on all HHonors Base points credited while you are a Diamond VIP. Plus, Diamond VIP members will enjoy 4,000 HHonors bonus points after four paid HHonors stays as a Diamond VIP in a calendar quarter.
Silver VIP Membership
Point Bonuses: Earn a 15% bonus on all HHonors Base points credited while you are a Silver VIP member. Silver VIP members will receive 2,000 HHonors bonus points after four paid HHonors stays as a Silver VIP in a calendar quarter.
Gold VIP Membership
Point Bonuses: Earn a 25% bonus on all HHonors Base points credited while you are a Gold VIP. Plus, Gold VIP members enjoy 4,000 HHonors bonus points after four paid HHonors stays as a Gold VIP in a calendar quarter.
Diamond VIP Membership
Point Bonuses: Earn a 50% bonus on all HHonors Base points credited while you are a Diamond VIP. Plus, Diamond VIP members will enjoy 4,000 HHonors bonus points after four paid HHonors stays as a Diamond VIP in a calendar quarter.
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by siliconengineer:
And, a SPG member earns 2 points per dollar (3points/$ for Au, Pt) at a Starwood hotel so 3 nights at $150/night is 900 SPG points (1350 for elite). This is 900 (or 1125 miles if xfer 20K points with 5K bonus, or 1687 for elites).
If exchanging 50K points, the Hilton earnings of 4500 points and 500 miles for the 3 nights at $150/night is 4500/5=900 miles + 500 miles, or 1400 miles. If not exchanging 50K miles, the conversion of 4500 points gives only 675 miles which plus the 500 double dip miles totals 1175 miles.
</font>
And, a SPG member earns 2 points per dollar (3points/$ for Au, Pt) at a Starwood hotel so 3 nights at $150/night is 900 SPG points (1350 for elite). This is 900 (or 1125 miles if xfer 20K points with 5K bonus, or 1687 for elites).
If exchanging 50K points, the Hilton earnings of 4500 points and 500 miles for the 3 nights at $150/night is 4500/5=900 miles + 500 miles, or 1400 miles. If not exchanging 50K miles, the conversion of 4500 points gives only 675 miles which plus the 500 double dip miles totals 1175 miles.
</font>
Jul 10, 2001 | 4:21 pm
#25
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Santa Barbara, California
Posts: 20
Well it is interesting reading how the rest of you feel. I must first confess that I also still use my Starwood Amex card to pad that account. I do not know if I will keep it if I have to pay an annual fee however. I did just get a new Hilton Platinum Amex, 7,500 point Bonus and no annual fee.
I take particular issue with one statement made by Mileking:
"I will gladly accept slightly less point earning potential for the capability to redeem points where/when I want without hassle"
Slightly less points is just not true. Let me give you two examples and you may have to reference my first post to understand. If I converted my 300,000 HHonors points to miles I would recieve 60,000 FF miles (50,000 HHonors pts = 10,000 airline miles) add this to the 30,000 miles I receive for the double dip and the grand total for my stays last year would convert to 90,000 airline miles. For the same number of stays I would have received at most 25,000 miles with Starwood. This is not a minor difference! There are no capacity controls on converting points to miles in either program.
For hotel reward stays I would point out: with 300,000 Honors points I could receive 18 nights in Hawaii using VIP awards and the 30,000 double dip miles would also get me one free ticket on Delta to my destination. The same number of stays with Starwood would earn me at most two free nights in Hawaii and the airfare is on my own. The differences are not slight, they are very significant.
I will conceed that the capacity control no limitation is still Starwoods greatest asset, bu you must realize that benefit costs a great deal.
I take particular issue with one statement made by Mileking:
"I will gladly accept slightly less point earning potential for the capability to redeem points where/when I want without hassle"
Slightly less points is just not true. Let me give you two examples and you may have to reference my first post to understand. If I converted my 300,000 HHonors points to miles I would recieve 60,000 FF miles (50,000 HHonors pts = 10,000 airline miles) add this to the 30,000 miles I receive for the double dip and the grand total for my stays last year would convert to 90,000 airline miles. For the same number of stays I would have received at most 25,000 miles with Starwood. This is not a minor difference! There are no capacity controls on converting points to miles in either program.
For hotel reward stays I would point out: with 300,000 Honors points I could receive 18 nights in Hawaii using VIP awards and the 30,000 double dip miles would also get me one free ticket on Delta to my destination. The same number of stays with Starwood would earn me at most two free nights in Hawaii and the airfare is on my own. The differences are not slight, they are very significant.
I will conceed that the capacity control no limitation is still Starwoods greatest asset, bu you must realize that benefit costs a great deal.
Jul 10, 2001 | 9:20 pm
#26
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 617
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by linbe:
Well it is interesting reading how the rest of you feel. [...]</font>
Well it is interesting reading how the rest of you feel. [...]</font>
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by linbe:
I must first confess that I also still use my Starwood Amex card to pad that account. I do not know if I will keep it if I have to pay an annual fee however.</font>
I must first confess that I also still use my Starwood Amex card to pad that account. I do not know if I will keep it if I have to pay an annual fee however.</font>
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by linbe:
I did just get a new Hilton Platinum Amex, 7,500 point Bonus and no annual fee.</font>
I did just get a new Hilton Platinum Amex, 7,500 point Bonus and no annual fee.</font>
Hilton's capacity controls & blackout dates have made award redemption a kind of cruel joke for me, & I am forced to consider simply converting the 6-figure points to miles & kissing award stays (specifically cost savings) goodbye, much to my dismay.
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by linbe:
I take particular issue with one statement made by Mileking:
"I will gladly accept slightly less point earning potential for the capability to redeem points where/when I want without hassle"
Slightly less points is just not true.[...]</font>
I take particular issue with one statement made by Mileking:
"I will gladly accept slightly less point earning potential for the capability to redeem points where/when I want without hassle"
Slightly less points is just not true.[...]</font>
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by linbe:
There are no capacity controls on converting points to miles in either program.</font>
There are no capacity controls on converting points to miles in either program.</font>
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by linbe:
For hotel reward stays I would point out: with 300,000 Honors points I could receive [...]</font>
For hotel reward stays I would point out: with 300,000 Honors points I could receive [...]</font>
My HHonors points balance is a nice bloated figure w/ practically no value to me, unfortunately. The points' THEORETICAL value--as opposed to practical value--sure is nice, however...but, one can't "wish" one's way into a Hilton award stay, so, there the many points sit, idling, "collecting dust"...
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by linbe:
[...] The same number of stays with Starwood would...</font>
[...] The same number of stays with Starwood would...</font>
...what a concept...simple, yet powerful, w/ more than a touch of convenience...
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by linbe:
I will conceed that the capacity control no limitation is still Starwoods greatest asset</font>
I will conceed that the capacity control no limitation is still Starwoods greatest asset</font>
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by linbe:
bu you must realize that benefit costs a great deal.[/</font>
bu you must realize that benefit costs a great deal.[/</font>
And while I wish like crazy that I could ramp up my Starpoint balance @ a far faster rate, & do miss double dip mileage earning, I take solace in the fact that I have something far more valuable to me than the tangible & intangible value placed on more miles--I know that the company overseeing the frequent stay program for the multitude of properties which receive $ for my accommodations not only has proven to me time & again that they're serious about customer service, & that they strive to improve (& do)...importantly, I have confidence that they WILL take care of me (& have) should something go wrong--& WILL do so fairly, judiciously, & in a manner that shows me they empathize, they understand (& so much of what they deal w/ boils down to a matter of principle, so it can be associated w/ powerful potential consequence--whether that powerful consequence would turn out to be negative or positive would depend on how such a matter was handled), & that they want to keep me as a customer. Certain individual properties or personnel affiliated w/ such may potentially want to go rounds on issues, I realize, but I feel confident that Starwood customer service would still ultimately coordinate or otherwise provide appropriate resolution or redress in such circumstances.
A critical difference in Hilton's vs. Starwood's customer service is that Starwood's CS reps are EMPOWERED to not only pro-actively identify issues which should be addressed, but they are EMPOWERED to compensate customers in ways & to an extent that I have yet to see an inkling of from Hilton CS.
Someone in Starwood upper management seems to "get" what customer service is about, & the SPG CS folks are equipped, accordingly, not only for matters of redress, but for matters of customer satisfaction, period. These folks behave in ways that still @ times renders me silent in positive disbelief.
When it comes down to it, the ultimate reason we stay @ hotels is NOT purely for the sake of miles or points (ok, there are potential exceptions when various promos exist or status is @ stake, I realize)--we ultimately stay @ hotels for a "home away from home", &/or amenities that exist in association w/ a given property. Sometimes we simply need a bed to crash in, other times we want more than that... Regardless, these properties often form part of the "backdrop" for critical business-related events, special evenings "out on the town", vacations, anniversaries, or special times being spent away "just because". The events which transpire during a stay can make or break comfort, rest, relaxation, productivity, etc. They can also form a powerful negative memory if things are screwed up enough.
I want a hotel program that does more than serve as an "accountant" for points deposition & withdrawal--I want one that has "tentacles" into the multitude of properties associated w/ their program, & can & does "throw their weight around" for the overall benefit of customers--whether as goodwill ambassadors, purveyors of positive change, or as "defenders" & "enforcers" when inevitable problems arise.
With Starwood, I feel like customer service issues are overwhelmingly handled w/ respect, fairness, & empathy. With Hilton, the only thing missing @ times was them actually saying, "we don't care" or, "we aren't empowered to do something" (if there was a response @ all, that is).
Customer service can make all the difference...it's the ultimate "trump card" in whatever "game" might ever be played among the various programs...
My Starpoints & miles take a backseat to that (though they're gripping the front seat "head rest" @ times, for sure
).While it's hard to put a price on something considered priceless, indirectly, I "can" (somewhat) when it comes to Starwood's customer service policies & practice: every cent of mine that previously would have gone to other hotel chains now goes exclusively to Starwood.
The problems associated w/ my nightmarish & costly (in many ways) last stays @ Hilton properties over the course of a particular series of days were never taken seriously by Hilton customer service (they had several opportunities to provide assistance, let alone redress). The Hilton properties in question weren't ultimately responsible for losing my business--Hilton's "customer service" was (well, the lack thereof)...
Starwood Lurker: kudos to you & the entire Starwood customer service team, & the many folks @ the many Starwood properties which strive to provide stellar customer service. You make a difference...& it's one that adds to the bottom line, not to mention the satisfaction of Starwood customers.
[This message has been edited by ILTE_Miles (edited 07-10-2001).]
Jul 12, 2001 | 1:55 pm
#27
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: East Orange, NJ
Posts: 326
ILTE:
I feel the passion in your argument, but I still have to say I get a beter value with HHonors. I have always had excellent customer service with Hilton (as well as Starwood). And Adam Burke in the Hilton forum is a great help. While not as active a poster as the Starwwod Lurker, he nevertheless can get things done when you need it.
As far as blackout dates and capacity controls, I have always found that you can usually get a Hilton room when you need it. And because they have FAR more properties than Starwood, you have FAR more options.
If the HHonors Service Center will not book a reward room for you, you can usually call the hotel directly and the (reservations or general) manager will be happy to give you an unused room.
It's somewhat of a hassle, but for the ultra point savings with HHonors, I will gladly make the extra call.
I keep a stash of Starpoints just in case there is ever a time when HHonors absolutely, positively can't get me a room, but I have never had to use it!
So I would say keep Starwood as a backup if you need a definite positive reservation. But get into Hilton's wonderful world of points and get more bang for your buck the vast majority of the time.
Mac
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ˇViaja con Dios!
I feel the passion in your argument, but I still have to say I get a beter value with HHonors. I have always had excellent customer service with Hilton (as well as Starwood). And Adam Burke in the Hilton forum is a great help. While not as active a poster as the Starwwod Lurker, he nevertheless can get things done when you need it.
As far as blackout dates and capacity controls, I have always found that you can usually get a Hilton room when you need it. And because they have FAR more properties than Starwood, you have FAR more options.
If the HHonors Service Center will not book a reward room for you, you can usually call the hotel directly and the (reservations or general) manager will be happy to give you an unused room.
It's somewhat of a hassle, but for the ultra point savings with HHonors, I will gladly make the extra call.
I keep a stash of Starpoints just in case there is ever a time when HHonors absolutely, positively can't get me a room, but I have never had to use it!
So I would say keep Starwood as a backup if you need a definite positive reservation. But get into Hilton's wonderful world of points and get more bang for your buck the vast majority of the time.
Mac
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ˇViaja con Dios!
Jul 12, 2001 | 3:33 pm
#28
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: SLC
Posts: 600
OK, my two cents:
I really don't care much about capacity controls or rewards stay availability. Why? Because I can use the points on so much else. Reward stay not available? Then PAY for the hotel and use your hhonors points to get the rental car for free. It all ends up saving you about the same. I for one never plan on using my points for hotel stays because I can't imagine staying in a hilton, but not receiving any points or miles! HA HA, I know that may sound stupid, but all I would be thinking the whole time is, "Man, I could be getting 12,000 points for this stay!"
The obvious exception would be the ALON awards, and for the value I'm more than willing to wiggle around some availability issues.
Use honors points for a cruise reward, or gift certs, or CASH at a casino. Don't let hotel night availability sway you.......I am refinancing my House and will be receiving another dump load of points. Several fancy hotel night's worth, but they'll never be wasted on that..... :-)
I really don't care much about capacity controls or rewards stay availability. Why? Because I can use the points on so much else. Reward stay not available? Then PAY for the hotel and use your hhonors points to get the rental car for free. It all ends up saving you about the same. I for one never plan on using my points for hotel stays because I can't imagine staying in a hilton, but not receiving any points or miles! HA HA, I know that may sound stupid, but all I would be thinking the whole time is, "Man, I could be getting 12,000 points for this stay!"
The obvious exception would be the ALON awards, and for the value I'm more than willing to wiggle around some availability issues.
Use honors points for a cruise reward, or gift certs, or CASH at a casino. Don't let hotel night availability sway you.......I am refinancing my House and will be receiving another dump load of points. Several fancy hotel night's worth, but they'll never be wasted on that..... :-)
Jul 13, 2001 | 11:06 pm
#29
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: MCI. AA Plat, UA PrmEx., Mrrtt Gold, Hz Pres.Circle, HHonors Gold
Posts: 1,070
One point about availability that many people overlook: Number and diversity of properties.
You guys are focusing on availability at prime locations at prime-time. In that case, Starwood clearly wins hands-down. If I walk into a big four-star hotel in Hawaii tomorrow and want an award stay on the spot, then it had better be a Starwood.
Where I believe HHonors has the advantage is at the mid-quality level. There are far more HHonors properties to choose from at all quality levels in all types of locations across the USA. I travel a lot to medium and smaller sized cities where Starwood isn't an option. Whether doing a paid or award stay, I like knowing that I can ALWAYS find an HHonors hotel wherever I'm going. I also like the fact that most Doubletrees and Hamptons are at least halfway clean (yes, there are exceptions), which is more than I can say for 4Points or Marriott's Scarefield Inns.
My point is that availability means different things to different users. If you know that ALL of your hotel stays are big-city during the business week, you probably need Starwood's guarantees. If you do a mix of business and personal stays across different brands and location types, then Starwood doesn't compare to HHonors (or Marriott, for that matter).
FWIW, I've accumulated 200,000 HHonors points and about 8,000 AA miles in 27 nights at HHonors properties this year - a total spend of about $4000 or so. That's a lot of triple-double-dipping, two 50,000 point bonuses, four 4,000 point bonuses, and a profile update here and there. I've redeemed two (smallish) awards so far and was able to book the exact dates/property I wanted. I plan an ALON later this year or next; if I have to alter the dates a little to get a room, I probably won't be too upset considering how many points you get per dollar spent. Again, it's a tradeoff...
You guys are focusing on availability at prime locations at prime-time. In that case, Starwood clearly wins hands-down. If I walk into a big four-star hotel in Hawaii tomorrow and want an award stay on the spot, then it had better be a Starwood.
Where I believe HHonors has the advantage is at the mid-quality level. There are far more HHonors properties to choose from at all quality levels in all types of locations across the USA. I travel a lot to medium and smaller sized cities where Starwood isn't an option. Whether doing a paid or award stay, I like knowing that I can ALWAYS find an HHonors hotel wherever I'm going. I also like the fact that most Doubletrees and Hamptons are at least halfway clean (yes, there are exceptions), which is more than I can say for 4Points or Marriott's Scarefield Inns.
My point is that availability means different things to different users. If you know that ALL of your hotel stays are big-city during the business week, you probably need Starwood's guarantees. If you do a mix of business and personal stays across different brands and location types, then Starwood doesn't compare to HHonors (or Marriott, for that matter).
FWIW, I've accumulated 200,000 HHonors points and about 8,000 AA miles in 27 nights at HHonors properties this year - a total spend of about $4000 or so. That's a lot of triple-double-dipping, two 50,000 point bonuses, four 4,000 point bonuses, and a profile update here and there. I've redeemed two (smallish) awards so far and was able to book the exact dates/property I wanted. I plan an ALON later this year or next; if I have to alter the dates a little to get a room, I probably won't be too upset considering how many points you get per dollar spent. Again, it's a tradeoff...
Jul 19, 2001 | 4:17 pm
#30
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: East Orange, NJ
Posts: 326
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by rmccamy:
One point about availability that many people overlook: Number and diversity of properties.
You guys are focusing on availability at prime locations at prime-time. In that case, Starwood clearly wins hands-down. If I walk into a big four-star hotel in Hawaii tomorrow and want an award stay on the spot, then it had better be a Starwood.
Where I believe HHonors has the advantage is at the mid-quality level. There are far more HHonors properties to choose from at all quality levels in all types of locations across the USA. I travel a lot to medium and smaller sized cities where Starwood isn't an option. Whether doing a paid or award stay, I like knowing that I can ALWAYS find an HHonors hotel wherever I'm going. I also like the fact that most Doubletrees and Hamptons are at least halfway clean (yes, there are exceptions), which is more than I can say for 4Points or Marriott's Scarefield Inns.</font>
One point about availability that many people overlook: Number and diversity of properties.
You guys are focusing on availability at prime locations at prime-time. In that case, Starwood clearly wins hands-down. If I walk into a big four-star hotel in Hawaii tomorrow and want an award stay on the spot, then it had better be a Starwood.
Where I believe HHonors has the advantage is at the mid-quality level. There are far more HHonors properties to choose from at all quality levels in all types of locations across the USA. I travel a lot to medium and smaller sized cities where Starwood isn't an option. Whether doing a paid or award stay, I like knowing that I can ALWAYS find an HHonors hotel wherever I'm going. I also like the fact that most Doubletrees and Hamptons are at least halfway clean (yes, there are exceptions), which is more than I can say for 4Points or Marriott's Scarefield Inns.</font>
Hilton delivers a free rooom where Starwood could not! BTW, the HHonors service center told me there were no available rooms there, but a quick call to the manager there, and I was given the room on an HHonors award! So you see, that strategy DOES work!
Mac
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ˇViaja con Dios!