There's a thread in here about Points.com and it has this long post I just made about how much I think that company stinks. Some agree with me wholeheartedly and so may not agree, but one thing is for sure:

People want the ability to trade and transfer points. We all want that option to exist and right now, it may be true that Points.com is the biggest or the only place to do this kind of thing. I think they botch it big time, and they also abuse their position. That's my take and my passionate post in that other thread tells you why. So does my web link I have listed at the bottom of this post, which I suggest people take a look at when considering this post. Points.com has fees to do transfers and they have partners with whom people can move points or miles or even Ebay points around in their own worlds. You can read more in other threads or even in the company's own site. Some don't mind fees and some do. That's actually not even my main complaint with the organization, but whatever you think about those fees, the way they handle them, or their overall service and delivery, I think this:

They need to have competition. I am only one guy so maybe WE need to become it!

Most large entities do need this in the overall business landscape, or there will be problems down the line for the customers and partners, and of course, with the quallity of business itself.

So I ask this question to the gurus and moderators who run FlyerTalk and who use it the most:


Can WE somehow create and nurture whatever realtionships are necessary to do point and mile transfers with the hotels and airlines? Consider the good that comes out of Coupon Connection, but with a twist. Maybe another sub-area of the FT that requires certain factors in order to partake, but something that allows for business transactions that WE trust adn feel more comfortable in carrying out without being held hostage to any outside entity that, in my strong and well documented opinion, does not really take care of its people so nicely...

I would gladly pay for such a service offered by some faction of this forum. We really need a new and better way.

Thoughts?

(Well, now, as with the old gift card gigs, there are TWO threads. I think the subject deserves it though).

thanks.

MM
www.theothersideoftraveling.com
(Site not yet 100% finished but a lot of good stuff in there to ponder first!)

I agree with you. I had some points that never appeared. I have called ,written letters, and e-mails. Everyone you speak with or recieve and e-mail back says we are checking into it. Still no points. It has been 6 months. I don't think I will ever see them.

If Randy and his group of enterprises expanded into competition with Point.com, I'd be one of their frist customers. The devaluations are out of line at Points.com.

Heck, I am so eager to see something like this happen that I would be ready and willing to PAY PAL like $100 of my own money just to shore up the start up of such a company/entity!

If others did the same, we could someday reap a tiny benefit and then continue being normal customers of this would-be great service!

Who'd be into that sort of thing?

MM

Well, I think it would take more than $100.

Points.com is actually in a bit of a tough business. They're a points exchange, making some money on the 'spread' between currencies when executing exchanges.

But they're also in the business of providing point purchase and transfer solutions to various loyalty programs. I don't know which is a bigger revenue item for them, but I'd guess they couldn't survive on transfers alone.

Plus the key in all of this is the delicate relationship with all of the programs themselves. Not anyone can simply get into this game.

Besides, Randy is still listed on the Board of Advisors at MilePoint, which was acquired by (?) Points.com.

Update: Indeed, Points.com acquired MilePoint earlier in the year
http://www.integratir.com/newsreleas...=EN&title=null

indeed, a hundred bucks is nothing but what if every FTer were willing to do up something like that combined?
I dunno. I know Points.com is big but... well, you've probably read the rest of my stuff on this subject.

Either way, there seems to be the need for a better way.

and yes, I use milepoint and the dinosaur has taken them over. I guess I still use what I don't like... Can I escape or must I suffer thru it and just hope for the best? Oooh, I hate hostage loyalty marketing!

First off, I don't think points.com is the culprit for those missing points. But other parties involved...

Secondly, what evidence do you have that Points.com is making much on their transactions? Points.com can only offer points based on what airlines are willing to PAY OUT for the points transfered out of their programs. If an airline is not willing to offer much to points.com, how can they offer their customers much in return? Everything I have seen supports the airlines not willing to give third parties much in exchange for points. Whenever you use miles for something other than travel, you don't get a good return. Why? The airlines aren't willing to pay out very much per point!

Given this reality, a competitor would not be able to offer much better exchange ratios between programs. The airlines don't want you to be able to.

Why would AA would you to be able to use your AA miles on UA, etc?

Well, to some extent we see very, very good value (usually 1:1) exchanges on Coupon Connection. Go there now and I bet you'll see at least three posts on the main page offering 25K or 50K on one program for equivalent mileage on another program. Usually this only works in big chunks because you're essentially ticketing an award for eachother, but its the best value in exchanging around and matches supply and demand with pretty much 100% success from what I see on CC.

I think that instead of building a competing firm to points.com there is a lot of potential and room to improve the exchange mechanism on Coupon Connection. However, FT is always kind of teetering on the edge with CC because the exchanges therein are usually beyond the pale of the T&Cs of the FF programs. I'm not sure Randy would be crazy about formalizing it more...

So yeah - it sucks that I can't exchange my 13K US miles for 5K NW miles somehow, but for larger blocks trading on CC seems to works pretty well.

peace,
~Ben~

Flyertalk is a community, not a corporation.

Why don't you start this company ? I'm sure it would work out.
Think of the recruiting possibilities - Hire a Flyertalker!

The Marathon Man is not really in the position to start up a business at this point in life but I do thank you for your suggestion. I mean, I couldn�t really start UP a business right now but would certainly be a good senior person within such a thing. Furthermore, in such a bold business, we would certainly need someone who could do an analysis to prove this kind of risk/task could bring home some bacon. Maybe the FT "owners" might say that too, but because of the fact they ARE a giant, well-known forum containing many eager members and countless archived data on FLYING and MILES, I think they would be able to pull that off with a higher degree of success from the get-go than would someone like the lone little old Marathon Man. I also figured that if I had to weigh the abilities and capacities of myself going it alone right now against the collaborative positioning and overall reputation of something like FT, then FT would be a far better choice for obvious reasons at this point and time.

And yes, later on, they could possibly "hire" US to help out with some of the �point-related "what if" scenerios� work.

If a business venture of this nature was not for FT as it is right now, then maybe some offshoot that was backed by, started from out of, or inspired by the higher ups that run FT and seem to do a pretty darn good job as far as organizations are concerned. I also think that the concept of having some small business bubble or entity of FT within the grand scheme of things we have all already come to enjoy and trust would be a good idea. Ft could remain what it is, but have some small other thing that it could oversee or help start up so guys like me could work in it or run it or others like you could do that too. The masses could then do mile transfers with better accountability than what has been revealed to many of us from the likes of Points.com.

So does that mean we can now �press� Randy to ask POINTS.COM why they don�t give the points or missing miles to all these bummed out FT people who are having huge problems getting that company's Customer Service to answer back?

Maybe Randy, as a board member with a bit of mile-related clout, should be asked by all of us FT members who support his claim to fame to do us all a big favor when he has a chance to do it:

If he can tighten a few screws on his constituents over in Toronto, maybe Points.com would figure out they are doing wrong to one of their own! I have already suggested to many that the company do away with some of its current management and actually start doing what it promises! It does fail to do this though, and that just plain stinks!

For example, I give you one Lissa Romano, the Customer Service manager who went on 2--count 'em, 2 vacations during the 5-month period between the end of the AA/EBay Anything/Points.com promo and the end of November of this year. All of this time, we were all waiting patiently for miles that were supposed to post from the partnership ring that Points.com managed and were getting nowhere fast. In that 5 month period, those who are familiar with the enormous AA thread involving the multiple partnerships fought tooth and nail for months on end to get the points from things they signed up for. Points.com had continuously failed to return emails or calls from several of their patiently waiting customers. Everyone passed the buck. Later, Lissa's boss Michael actually told me in a live phone call (after I was able to track this guy down and hound him) that he would no longer return customer calls on the issue of those missing points because he thought SOME people scammed someone somewhere... He was also overwhelmed with over 100 of these customers. You do the math but if each one is missing say, 3,000 points, then what does that tell you about how the company makes its profits? Again, SOMEONE or SOMETHING needs to take a bit of this whole points and transfers marketshare away from these people! It is THEY who are the scammers! We just do what the partnership promos say and hope our points eventually show up as promissed. They do not. Who do you complain to when the directors of CS are blowing you off too?

Many of the partnerships in the above deal stemmed from ebay anything points, a division of the hard-to-speak-live-to ebay. With the help of several others, I did run the gauntlet and actually speak to the bloke who ran the show over there, Mr Scott Menken. Over a far less amount of time than this silly 5 months as stated above, he and I emailed excel sheets back and forth and the number people missing points was reduced to only a few at the very end. In fact, his part was done. He did put the screws to some of the partners that the Ebay site had under its umbrella and they facilitated the points for the customers who participated. Scott and I tracked it and I kept asking who was still missing what. He talked to points.com but actually got the runaround himself! Eventually the ONLY remaining cog was the part where people are supposed to exchange points for AA miles. This part is what Points.com did in the multi-partnered scheme, but they did it poorly. They did many of these transfers after being asked to again and again, but only very slowly. They spoke professionally but were hard pressed to actually deliver without being constantly prodded to do so. Again, to this day, several people are still missing points from them, and did not receive any more emails or call backs when they asked what to do next. We went from about 100 to about 3-5 people, so it ain�t bad considering the numbers, but it took 5 freakin' months and those 5 people are STILL people--who post IN Randy's forum!

Heck, if Points.com were my business I would at least try to let those people know I am still alive trying to help them--that is, before dropping their ball and going out to scam some new suckers in my dealings! I would have also paid guys like me who helped fix the problems of the other 95 �mis-pointed� people. I know of more who have lost out of that company from similar dealings and so the numbers continue to grow. Lissa and Michael, like many bad managers, are STILL working there. But where are YOUR points today?

Would Randy help us?
Would anyone who is in the position to do so help us?
Give me the means... maybe I DO have to go at it. I'll surely need some big help!

MM

I had suggested in this thread last week that maybe RANDY, since he is on the Board of Milepoint which is now part of Points.com, could help people who are missing points from Points.com get those missing points.

Gleff said:

Not anyone can simply get into this game.

Besides, Randy is still listed on the Board of Advisors at MilePoint, which was acquired by (?) Points.com.

Update: Indeed, Points.com acquired MilePoint earlier in the year
http://www.integratir.com/newsrelea...g=EN&title=null

I said:
So does that mean we can now �press� Randy to ask POINTS.COM why they don�t give the points or missing miles to all these bummed out FT people who are having huge problems getting that company's Customer Service to answer back?

Maybe Randy, as a board member with a bit of mile-related clout, should be asked by all of us FT members who support his claim to fame to do us all a big favor when he has a chance to do it:

If he can tighten a few screws on his constituents over in Toronto, maybe Points.com would figure out they are doing wrong to one of their own! I have already suggested to many that the company do away with some of its current management and actually start doing what it promises! It does fail to do this though, and that just plain stinks!

It is proven that miles can fail to post and when that happens, it is not always user (customer) error. Here is another example from my latest post in this thread:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/newre...eply&p=3466805

what should we do about this stuff? maybe Randy has answers? Can it at least be addressed by guys with his level of industry experience?

Thanks!
MM

I don't know if Points.com board of advisors is the same as a corporate board, but if it it is, it seems to me that Randy would actually be ethically if not legally obligated to make decisions as a board member that enhance the value of points.com's shareholders. Obviously, keeeping the customers happy is part of maintaining and enhancing the value of points.com, but it does not imply that a company should necessarily cut their margins on their products or services beyond what the market requires.

If you think Points.com is making out like bandits, buy some of their stock. If, on the other hand, their returns are average or sub-par, it probably implies that the service they provide is fairly valued. I don't personally know how Points.com is doing, but the travel industry as a whole has NOT had a great record the last several years and I would not be looking to sink a big chunk of change in a new venture.

They appear to be a "nonprofit" organization:

http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/041110/105283_1.html

The company that I work for is owned by another firm. I do recruiting for marketing and design/web professionals in the Boston area.

If someone told me that something was wrong or out of place, I would most certainly be more in the position to bring this to the attention to the higher ups, and I certainly would. I am just a recuriter. The message would get to the top and would get to the top of the parent firm as well. that is how we are set up and yet, I am one of the newest ones here. Our company allows for such things anyway--so as to improve the overall business. Maybe that is the dif between us and places like Points.com. Maybe the suggestions dont get thru or maybe they get dealt with slower than one would imagine, but they get made all the time by people like me and others at all levels.

Points.com could very easily listen to someone like Randy. Whether he is on one board there or another. they sure have more connections availabel than you and I do to the head people!

This is not even about their money or the fees to transfer miles that they put forth. This is about taking care of business and the customers who already paid them. This post is not about investing or profits. It is about doing the right freakin' thing.

This is about maintaining data, showing accountability for transactions and doing what was promissed. There are many customers I know of who have had some serious problems with missing points or ones that failed to transfer. THAT is where we need someone --anyone with any level of foot in the door--to try to suggest that the company simply does what is right! I am not talking about huge slashes in its marketing budget or ways to slow down its profitability, unless, of course, they are PLANNING on this sort of thing and actually factor it in as a way to MAKE money. That would be very wrong. I am not sure what they do nor do I really care to find out right now, but what I do hope for is that someone--anyone--comes along and finds a better way, and in the meantime, tries to straighten these guys out!

people are missing points.
plain and simple. FIX IT!

Randy is the one in the best position to get that message thru. I am in less of a position. My suggestion was that he could bring this one up. Maybe he could use some of the postings from here as examples. If asked, I bet tons of people with missing point issues from points.com or like points.com would come foward. If not, I will find them and give a list. I still have many of the names from that FT thread on the AA forum.

Why do I get the feeling this fixing thing I suggest is NOT something anyone wants to think about?

I was hoping Randy or someone else could try to help make it an issue to clear up overall.

MM

Have you posted your concerns in Randy's forum where he's more likely to read them (didn't see it there) or emailed him directly? I'm sure he doesn't read every post in this forum.