Now that I think about it, we should forget about all of this transferability after the fact. I think the best response by an educated consumer is to first determine their FF goals (free first class intl travel vs. lots of free domestic trips, free high-end hotel rooms, etc) and then tailor a strategy to get where they need to go.

For example, since I like to go on last-minute domestic trips at least once a month, I try to maximize my free, unrestricted plane tickets while minimizing my hotel costs (I'll admit it - I'm a tightwad). To accomplish that, I:

1. Fly Southwest frequently
2. Get Southwest credits when renting cars
3. Use my Diners Club/Southwest Visa for expenses and transfer points into Southwest credits
4. Achieve a Companion Pass at 100+ credits every year
5. When I have to fly another airline, save up and launder 50,000 UA or AA miles -> 50,000 DC points -> 2 Southwest round-trip tickets (see #4)
6. For business trips, use Priceline (+eBay rebate) and/or discounted hotel gift certificates purchased on eBay (since it's my money, I value $$$ over hotel points)
7. For personal trips, use Priceline exclusively to stay at 3* and 4* hotels for $40-$80/night

Some people may prefer to save up for that $15,000 round-the-world First Class seat. I prefer to get value in smaller chunks more frequently.

If you stay focused on a strategy, you shouldn't feel the need to have to transfer miles and points all over the place at horrific discounts.

good idea but when you are at 45k miles and you need only 5k more, the ability to quickly transfer from some family member or friend can be valuable if you need to fly NOW.

That person could have either overshot or somehow decided to give up on overall collection and their miles are just sitting there doing nothing. One good thing Points.com did do was to convince the airlines there is some sort of market there...

I still have lots of friends who have hobbies other than miles (gasp!) who know very little about how to manage their old accounts with 5,000 here or 14k there...21,432 here, 24,999 there...

Good thing for referrals and idine too!
I praise the transfer concept and yet, it must be well managed to really be helpful to people and companies involved.

You can't feel pity for your friends who are ignorant of how the system works. It's like anything else - finance, shopping, real estate, etc. If you want to get the good deals, you have to do a little homework.

In your example, a Diners Club or AmEx would fit the bill nicely - transfer over 5k miles and you are there!

What I find appalling are all of the poorly-capitalized "quasi"-miles/points programs that can and do close up shop all the time, stranding everyone's points.

MM,

I think you missed the point of my post:

If a truly successful enterprise was established that allowed people to move points around easily, trade them, etc. then the airlines would do something.

They're designed to reward loyalty. If there's no loyalty, they have no incentive to give something away for free.

You're looking at this only from a consumer's perspective. While, as a consumer, it would be nice to be able to trade and move miles around, as a rational human being, I can see that it is not in an airline's interest for me to be able to do so. Do you get that?

Like I said, be careful what you wish for. If someone figured out an easy way to effectively barter/trade/move miles, the airlines would undoubtedly move to prevent it from occuring, and the only possible outcomes I can think of under that scenario are decidedly negative for the consumer.

Try thinking long term.

I'm debating whether to continue posting in these threads, because I'm starting to think that MM is a characature or plant or something. The truly off-the-wall comments and constant references to "corruption" and acting like it's an us vs. them thing are almost too bizarre to believe.

heelaw you are coming through loud and clear and yes, I had missed your point, or some of it.

Yes, if something too easily allowed people to move points around easily, then the airlines would start to think twice about what is going on out there. This would have an affect on the entire loyalty scheme. But it doesn�t have to be all negative.

as a consumer, I am seeing it more one-sided right now, but I am sure the business of those who would trade miles at points.com has been well thought out so it can make money for both the airlines and the points.com company. Why cant there be 2 points.com companies? I like transferring miles but I am not saying I MUST have that around to be happy. And I am not saying it has to be so available that it should wipe out the entire concept of loyalty programs as we know them.

I am suggesting that if there were 2 points.com entities--or, maybe FT can come up with a version of it that we can better trust and work with, this action would actually help airlines and customers.

I think if there are more than one entity that performs a service, then this fosters competition. And with competition, come price adjustments, marketing ideas and more deals that could make more people more money. Also, it inherently attempts to out do the other guy by providing a better service for the customer. In the end, thru competition, points.com and its competitor would have a higher level of service that we would all enjoy, no matter what they provide. That's the theory, at least.

Right now there is only one points.com. It makes mistakes. I am sorry you feel reluctant to post or be involved with things because I use the word corruption here. Things don�t post and that bugs me, and others. Things that don�t post from points.com cause problems. People like me try to get them to fix it or we have to email and call them a lot to get answers. They often blow us off or cannot help. They put the onus on us. They fail. They therefore ruin some of the very business they create and no one is holding them accountable. There is no competitor that makes them �feel� as if they should watch out or else someone else will take their business over. the partner airlines don�t care either. Points.com continues to do its thing, and some of it is good, but in doing it the way I have just described above, they are the ones ruining this sort of thing for airlines, not me. Their actions, if not held in check, will cause problems that will make airlines wary of doing any such things and then we will see changes that could be negative.

I do not pretend to have it all figured out, nor do I pretend to be an expert logician or expert writer who knows all about the mile trading business, but I do know that this company does often practice in such a way that can be seen by many as corrupt. That shouldn�t make me anything but someone who is bothered by it. Why is it so hard to understand this?

Have you never lost a mile?

When you do, and you fight to get it credited to your account, you will see what I mean. I litterally had to fight tooth and nail to get to the people who run points.com and ebay anything points all fall because over 100 people, myself included, were missing an average of 5,000 miles a piece! Tell me what that looks like to you? Yep, believe it! Bizzare or not, it happened, right here in FT. And every time miles fail to post and people have to suffer thru the pains of getting them back, it down right stinks. Savvy or not, experienced or not, this stuff happens to customers and that does eventually hurt the business too. And when it happens to someone who is NOT in the know, it's almost a crime-especially if it seems as though that business has no reason to give a crap about that poor person! It makes a guy like me upset, and you have seen me post in other threads about ways that may not seem so above board to try to combat things like this. I aint saying I am always right, but you get the idea. What this sort of thing does to someone is kind of bizzare too, eh?

Well, a second points.com or FT version of it that we would all trust and enjoy, would really help, I think! That's what I am trying to say.

MM

Try thinking long term as well, my friend.
Don't leave this thread because you toy with the idea that I am ONLY some sort of us vs. them thinker, and nothing more. I think you have the abilities and passions to help make our work together in ventures like this come up with something really positive and forward thinking. I would look forward to working on challenges like this with you, not VS you (or anybody).

I agree with HeelLaw.. To protest that airlines make it difficult to trade or maximize usage out of their own miles is silly.. if you don't like how the game is played, then don't bother participating. It's their game, their rules, and their "monopoly money", so to speak. Enjoy what you can from earning/redeeming in loyalty programs (and there's plenty to reap, obviously)...

This sounds like a personal vendetta against Points.com .. hiding behind a pseudo-collective crusade against the "evils of point-trading companies".

Wow, you are harsh and I get a funny feeling it is almost a game here!

I am thinking that either I am just not making my self 100% clear or people are not wanting to think further out on this particular issue...

I am NOT saying the airlines HAVE to allow transfers, and I am not saying they HAVE to make it so easy to play the game that a kid could do it or something like that.

Not at all.

I am saying that if THEY play the game, they should try to make it more consistent. They should do for you as they do for me. Providing I played--or performed the tasks as laid out in their system, then the action should take place as promissed. If there is a glitch or problem, then someone should be there in CS to help fix it. Why is this so freakin hard for some people in here to grasp? Do you never have this sort of issue in life?

Look, if your points dont post--whether thru some transfer or some other service the company offers, then we have a problem. Am I right?

It just so happens, that I found Points.com to have this problem a lot more than anyone else, and yes, I sure had to get into it more than most would in order to fix the issue! Several people--100+ in fact, were right there with me. What do you think we should have done? , And it's not like some sort of personal vendetta, rather, I am saying that if this kind of company is blatnatly causing such problems, then someone else should step up and make a better one!

I thought FT, with its might and clout, could actually BE such an entity. I WANT points.com and places like it to work. I want to do business with the likes of them. In fact, since the time of that Ft thread I mentioned, I have had to do transfers through them, and I have been very glad their service of transferring miles even exists!

When you have 45,000 miles in an airline that can fly you direct, and you find out you need to fly to Rome in 2 weeks, you might figure out that spending about $75 to transfer over a few thousand miles from a friend's account is going to be a lot more cost effective than anything else.

Points.com also has other services that have nothing to do with transfers, but in many cases, I have seen or experienced errors with them. Their customer service has not always come thru to help people in this situation and I have been witness to too many cases of this negative activity. I have used the service and would like to see it work, but I had a hard time trusting that everything would work out because my previous experience taught me that they are less likely to follow through IF there is a problem!

Example:
you tell me your gas station can do state inspections. So i come in and leave my car, take the train to work and come back to pick it up. I call first and someone tells me it's all ready. I already paid the fee to get my inspection because that's the law. (You have to pay upfront pass or fail). Then I come in to get my car after work and you tell me it is not done and you have no idea what someone told me on the phone. Your emmisions checking machine is broken today anyway, and you cannot do the inspection. Ok, so I ask you to do it tomorrow when you say your inspection and emmisions equipment are going to be working again.

you say OK. I leave, I come back because I already paid you the fee.
Same thing happens the next day.

What, am I some sort of loser just because your gas station sucks? I should go to another gas station.
But is there one?
Not in the case of Points.com

geesh!

the other thing I wanted to add is this:
I cannot really prove to you that I would do a better job in my own points company, because I dont have one. I sure think I could do abetter job though and I think a better job can be doneby many people who happen to be in this market. I think if I ran such a company I would try to not burn or blow off my customers. I would certainly try to make money, but in doing so, I would try to address issues surrounding problems when points fail to post. I think if FT had such a company or entity set up within its own world (and I do not know how that would be done, but maybe it is possible) then it would probably do a much better job than Points.com. That's because FT is made up of many people who are savvy about points and mile issues, and these people generally know what they are looking for or how to choose what to avoid.

Look, Points.com may be like a gun, and maybe guns are not for everybody to play around with, but guns that misfire are no good for anybody; experienced or otherwise! I strongly believe that the FT gun would probably be designed a lot better, don't you agree? It is made up of people who know the hunting game! I think Randy may wish to examine this and consider making up something in here that creates a win-win for all of us. I would pay into that model if one were created as such.

How many angles must be shown to get this sort of thing across?

Would agree with the OP that points.com is a missed opportunity so far. Too greedy on conversion rates and fees, take it or leave it. I get sticker shock every time I read anything from them.

Would imagine that eBay is underwhelmed by performance there. I sell on said system and never once have I hard anything from buyers about Anything Points. It doesn't seem like the program has generated much excitement. Far better to just charge everything on the credit card through PayPal (though they don't want you to do that) and take points on the card's program.

Ebay's missing the boat on incentivizing but, like points.com, is basically a monopoly not feeling competitive pressure, so it'll probably drag its feet, too.

Just now catching upon this thread.

I guess what started this thread was issues with points.com's transaction processing and customer service. But like many here, the biggest obstacle preventing me from using them is the cost.

I'm curious about the idea of creating a competitor. Would you see competing at the wholesale level (fighting who gets to sign up the airlines, perhaps exclusively) or retail (both companies work with the same airlines, and consumers get to choose)?

Either way, it seems to me like a crappy business, but maybe that's just me projecting my "I'd never spend that much" attitude.

But I looked for more, and here's some of what I found.

Points.com is owned by Points International Ltd, which trades publicly on the Toronto Venture exchange (PTS.TO), and what I guessare ADR's on the US Pink Sheets (PTSEF.PK).

Latest stock price is 93 cents, and the market cap looks like about $50-60 million. Recent quarterly revenues were about $2M. Net loss was about $2M, with EBITDA loss about $1M.

IR Page: http://www.integratir.com/homepage.asp?ticker=t.pts
3Q04 results: http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/041110/105283_1.html

Some interesting nuggets:
- They claim "Strong recurring revenues, as 92% of Points.com's revenues were recurring". Not sure what this means, except that I'd guess that a large part of the revenues are coming from the travel companies and not consumers.
- In the quarter, Points powered the cumulative online exchange, sale and transfer of 6.5 billion points and miles.
- The [average] transaction size of each exchange increased to 18,041 points per exchange, up from 15,663 in the third quarter of 2003, and 15,060 in the prior quarter.

Finally, this:

They may mean annual membership fees, as this is about the only part of their business model they could reasonably call recurring? Great find by the way, thanks for posting it.

I would have to go with the RETAIL version -- and I thank you, and the last couple of posters for the recent posts!

I think it could be a tough business to be in as well, but the fact that consumers have miles and feel the need to use them, it is true that they are looking for options to make that happen. Shere profit-based business does not necessarily have to be the only way to look at this. I bet if these were somehow structured differently, the costs for us would be a lot less. Points.com has been good for many, like myself, who wish to consolidate, but I am aware of the fact I am paying thru the nose to do it thru them. Turns out United Airlines now allows transfers of miles and the fee structure is basically the same, but the service that does it does not appear to be through Points.com. I may need to look deeper to learn who it is. But since both entities do charge the same basic fees, we need to (A) figure out why that's the going rate, and, (B) we need to figure out where savings can be had by watching the competition and the mistakes it has made.

From a business standpoint, I cannot see how any company can save you much more than a dollar here or $5 there if competing, but an almost non-profit organizational approach may actually work here...

Randy take note

FT could act as some sort of NP to go at all of this with a sort of watchdog or ombudsman-styled mission statement and would also inherently undercut a lot of prices in the market. Its relationships with the industry may actually help it do so! Also note: NPs don't have to make NO profits, they just structure certain things differently, etc.

Finally, as said in previous posts, if consumers had to choose evenly across the board between Coke, Pepsi, and, I dunno, RC Cola, then it would be the product value, company integrity, brand marketability, and customer service that would enable these customers to make their choice to buy and/or come back for more. I have been harping on Customer Service all along, because Points.com does not hvae very good CS.

MM

(Of course, with sodas you have to factor in taste, but with miles and points this may simply translate into that little inner smile you get when you do ANYTHING online involving the concept of future travel for yourself and how the activity on that site feels when clicking through! Very exciting indeed)