New trend in cost-cutting? Company paid travel = company miles?
Oct 9, 2010, 1:45 am
#31
Join Date: Aug 2010
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And how, precisely, would you propose to get "your" value back for the miles that you paid for? A pro-rata government refund of miles to every taxpayer and purchaser of government bonds, etc? The miles did no good for anyone, ever. It was impossible to practically make use of them for the amorphous "public good", hence the change in policy.
It has an absolute zero dollar impact to the government or to the taxpayer to allow employees to keep their miles... so in what way is a taxpayer harmed or shortchanged?
It has an absolute zero dollar impact to the government or to the taxpayer to allow employees to keep their miles... so in what way is a taxpayer harmed or shortchanged?
Then there's other conceivable schemes like cash rebates to the general fund or negotiated lower fares or whatever.
Oct 9, 2010, 1:46 am
#32
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The biggest benefit of all for companies would be that overall travel costs would go down -- how many of us have taken a flight other than the cheapest, most convenient one, or even taken a whole trip that is only marginally necessary for the business, because it's on our preferred airline?
Of course I would oppose this change, but it's hard to argue against it from a company's point of view.
One thing that I haven't seen in all of these posts, however, is how this would work? I don't think that most FF programs are set up to allow pooled accounts. Airlines could probably introduce it, but they might not want to. Imagine how it would work -- companies would use their bank of miles for when they are most valuable, i.e., the most expensive tickets.
Of course I would oppose this change, but it's hard to argue against it from a company's point of view.
One thing that I haven't seen in all of these posts, however, is how this would work? I don't think that most FF programs are set up to allow pooled accounts. Airlines could probably introduce it, but they might not want to. Imagine how it would work -- companies would use their bank of miles for when they are most valuable, i.e., the most expensive tickets.
Oct 9, 2010, 1:49 am
#33
Join Date: Aug 2010
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BUT if your employer chooses not to value your talent in an acceptable fashion, take it elsewhere and make them regret it.
Oct 9, 2010, 1:57 am
#34
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well, my firm doesn't really care since they bill the clients directly for any travel....& i really don't think the clients would be looking to get the miles for my travel....
Oct 9, 2010, 2:07 am
#35
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Oct 9, 2010, 6:31 am
#36
Join Date: May 2009
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The gov't already has deeply discounted CityPair rates that are far below publicly available rates; and far below what even large companies can negotiate. Most airlines do not permit CityPair rates to qualify for promotional deals (triple RDM, etc) and some such as AA restrict elite upgrade ability.
Gov't employees are just people, earning a living for their families like anyone else - why the need to demonize us? My team negotiated millions of dollars in savings with our contractors this year - savings passed on to the taxpayer. How is it such an injustice that we keep a few thousand miles earned doing our jobs?
Should employes of, say, Boeing, KPMG, or others also not be permitted to keep miles when traveling under gov't contracts? Why not demand that Kraft, Ford, Lazyboy, or any company not permit employees to keep miles and instead lower product prices - aftrer all, you as the consumer are "paying for" their miles as well?
Oct 9, 2010, 8:18 am
#37
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 476
Originally Posted by 84fiero;14914110
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"Gov't employees are just people, earning a living for their families like anyone else - why the need to demonize us? My team negotiated millions of dollars in savings with our contractors this year - savings passed on to the taxpayer. How is it such an injustice that we keep a few thousand miles earned doing our jobs?
Should employes of, say, Boeing, KPMG, or others also not be permitted to keep miles when traveling under gov't contracts? Why not demand that Kraft, Ford, Lazyboy, or any company not permit employees to keep miles and instead lower product prices - aftrer all, you as the consumer are "paying for" their miles as well?"
Should employes of, say, Boeing, KPMG, or others also not be permitted to keep miles when traveling under gov't contracts? Why not demand that Kraft, Ford, Lazyboy, or any company not permit employees to keep miles and instead lower product prices - aftrer all, you as the consumer are "paying for" their miles as well?"
Well said.
I work for state government and we are no longer allowed to earn hotel points for ourselves, but rather can earn them for the "state." I don't know why people think that gov't employees are overpaid and underworked. Maybe somewhere. Get to know some government employees. Many of us actually have a commitment to public service. You will also find out that compared to private industry we are underpaid.
Last edited by sushanna1; Oct 9, 2010 at 8:19 am Reason: Quotes screwed up.
Oct 9, 2010, 8:28 am
#38
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The biggest benefit of all for companies would be that overall travel costs would go down -- how many of us have taken a flight other than the cheapest, most convenient one, or even taken a whole trip that is only marginally necessary for the business, because it's on our preferred airline?
Of course I would oppose this change, but it's hard to argue against it from a company's point of view.
Of course I would oppose this change, but it's hard to argue against it from a company's point of view.
Oct 9, 2010, 9:16 am
#39
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I'm surprised that after three dozen replies, no one has mentioned that there are two kinds of miles: redeemable and qualifying.
My business travel is way down lately, but in the days when I was traveling 50%, I considered the earned redeemable miles (and hotel points) as compensation for the grind of the road. Not part of my total package, I was always fine when travel dropped off, fewer miles but less grind was ok. But the point is, RDM can be quantified, which solves the angst on this thread. A company could (if airline rules allowed) decide it was cost effective to require miles be used for expensive company travel, but at the same time give travelers a cash bonus to make up for the loss. That creates issues around valuation and taxation, but for everyone here, there's some dollar amount that would satisfy them, in lieu of keeping their hard-earned RDM.
EQM are another story. While RDM are a bonus that business travelers use for non-work personal enjoyment, EQM are a path to status. And that status makes business travel more bearable. Without the EQM, even the most frequent business traveler loses the priority security and boarding lines, and has to sit in the cramped coach seats every trip. Worse than discomfort, it might even cost the company financially. For me, an upgrade or an exit row seat means I can use my laptop on board, and get work done during what would otherwise be lost time. And early boarding means never having to gate-check my bag. Having to wait at bag claim because the bins are full may mean 15 or 30 minutes less time at the client site on arrival day. At some airports, bypassing the general security lines may mean I can stay that much longer on departure day.
So... implement a system that takes away the RDM, and it's strictly a compensation question for business traveler, one that can be mitigated by other comp if needed. But take away the EQM, and business travel becomes a whole lot less efficient and more miserable.
My business travel is way down lately, but in the days when I was traveling 50%, I considered the earned redeemable miles (and hotel points) as compensation for the grind of the road. Not part of my total package, I was always fine when travel dropped off, fewer miles but less grind was ok. But the point is, RDM can be quantified, which solves the angst on this thread. A company could (if airline rules allowed) decide it was cost effective to require miles be used for expensive company travel, but at the same time give travelers a cash bonus to make up for the loss. That creates issues around valuation and taxation, but for everyone here, there's some dollar amount that would satisfy them, in lieu of keeping their hard-earned RDM.
EQM are another story. While RDM are a bonus that business travelers use for non-work personal enjoyment, EQM are a path to status. And that status makes business travel more bearable. Without the EQM, even the most frequent business traveler loses the priority security and boarding lines, and has to sit in the cramped coach seats every trip. Worse than discomfort, it might even cost the company financially. For me, an upgrade or an exit row seat means I can use my laptop on board, and get work done during what would otherwise be lost time. And early boarding means never having to gate-check my bag. Having to wait at bag claim because the bins are full may mean 15 or 30 minutes less time at the client site on arrival day. At some airports, bypassing the general security lines may mean I can stay that much longer on departure day.
So... implement a system that takes away the RDM, and it's strictly a compensation question for business traveler, one that can be mitigated by other comp if needed. But take away the EQM, and business travel becomes a whole lot less efficient and more miserable.
Oct 9, 2010, 9:45 am
#40
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Austin, TX -- AA Life Platinum; QF Life Silver; UA Silver
Posts: 5,462
Yeah my company does this as well. All Economy-only travel even going to India. But we can still earn miles for hotels/flights.
Oct 9, 2010, 9:59 am
#41
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Austin, TX -- AA Life Platinum; QF Life Silver; UA Silver
Posts: 5,462
I'm surprised that after three dozen replies, no one has mentioned that there are two kinds of miles: redeemable and qualifying.
My business travel is way down lately, but in the days when I was traveling 50%, I considered the earned redeemable miles (and hotel points) as compensation for the grind of the road. Not part of my total package, I was always fine when travel dropped off, fewer miles but less grind was ok. But the point is, RDM can be quantified, which solves the angst on this thread. A company could (if airline rules allowed) decide it was cost effective to require miles be used for expensive company travel, but at the same time give travelers a cash bonus to make up for the loss. That creates issues around valuation and taxation, but for everyone here, there's some dollar amount that would satisfy them, in lieu of keeping their hard-earned RDM.
EQM are another story. While RDM are a bonus that business travelers use for non-work personal enjoyment, EQM are a path to status. And that status makes business travel more bearable. Without the EQM, even the most frequent business traveler loses the priority security and boarding lines, and has to sit in the cramped coach seats every trip. Worse than discomfort, it might even cost the company financially. For me, an upgrade or an exit row seat means I can use my laptop on board, and get work done during what would otherwise be lost time. And early boarding means never having to gate-check my bag. Having to wait at bag claim because the bins are full may mean 15 or 30 minutes less time at the client site on arrival day. At some airports, bypassing the general security lines may mean I can stay that much longer on departure day.
So... implement a system that takes away the RDM, and it's strictly a compensation question for business traveler, one that can be mitigated by other comp if needed. But take away the EQM, and business travel becomes a whole lot less efficient and more miserable.
My business travel is way down lately, but in the days when I was traveling 50%, I considered the earned redeemable miles (and hotel points) as compensation for the grind of the road. Not part of my total package, I was always fine when travel dropped off, fewer miles but less grind was ok. But the point is, RDM can be quantified, which solves the angst on this thread. A company could (if airline rules allowed) decide it was cost effective to require miles be used for expensive company travel, but at the same time give travelers a cash bonus to make up for the loss. That creates issues around valuation and taxation, but for everyone here, there's some dollar amount that would satisfy them, in lieu of keeping their hard-earned RDM.
EQM are another story. While RDM are a bonus that business travelers use for non-work personal enjoyment, EQM are a path to status. And that status makes business travel more bearable. Without the EQM, even the most frequent business traveler loses the priority security and boarding lines, and has to sit in the cramped coach seats every trip. Worse than discomfort, it might even cost the company financially. For me, an upgrade or an exit row seat means I can use my laptop on board, and get work done during what would otherwise be lost time. And early boarding means never having to gate-check my bag. Having to wait at bag claim because the bins are full may mean 15 or 30 minutes less time at the client site on arrival day. At some airports, bypassing the general security lines may mean I can stay that much longer on departure day.
So... implement a system that takes away the RDM, and it's strictly a compensation question for business traveler, one that can be mitigated by other comp if needed. But take away the EQM, and business travel becomes a whole lot less efficient and more miserable.
Oct 9, 2010, 10:24 am
#42
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 71
Oct 9, 2010, 12:46 pm
#43
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: SNA
Programs: AA
Posts: 47
Gov't employees are just people, earning a living for their families like anyone else - why the need to demonize us? My team negotiated millions of dollars in savings with our contractors this year - savings passed on to the taxpayer. How is it such an injustice that we keep a few thousand miles earned doing our jobs?
Should employes of, say, Boeing, KPMG, or others also not be permitted to keep miles when traveling under gov't contracts? Why not demand that Kraft, Ford, Lazyboy, or any company not permit employees to keep miles and instead lower product prices - aftrer all, you as the consumer are "paying for" their miles as well?
Should employes of, say, Boeing, KPMG, or others also not be permitted to keep miles when traveling under gov't contracts? Why not demand that Kraft, Ford, Lazyboy, or any company not permit employees to keep miles and instead lower product prices - aftrer all, you as the consumer are "paying for" their miles as well?
With Kraft or whatever, it's the stockholder's call. I don't own stock in Kraft (or whatever mega-global corp owns Kraft) so I have zero say in the matter.
Taxes are sucked out of my marrow, involuntarily, and should be spent only to the benefit of the citizens (yes, though OT, I would include idiocies such as "foreign aid" as wasted money).
Government workers, by the way, make MORE than the private sector when all compensation is included. See this Cato report (PDF) or this USA Today story. Please note that for mileage purposes, it doesn't matter how much the employees make.
I agree with the EQM/RDM difference. EQM brings benefits that are useful only when "in the air" as it were, and are not quantifiable in the way RDM miles are. If the government employee flies enough to earn a status, fine.
Last edited by LittleCupcakes; Oct 9, 2010 at 1:00 pm Reason: added more inflammatory rhetoric
Oct 9, 2010, 5:19 pm
#45
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My old company used to do keep and reuse miles/points as a policy. It started about 15 years ago (with no choice to us) as a tradeoff -- we give up our FF miles but were allowed to continue to fly F on any flight over 2 hours. After a couple of years, the F perk went away as well unless we were traveling overseas. IIRC, a group of employees tried to engage TWA at the time to help fight it. The airline wasn't happy about the situation (it dramatically reduced the loyalty incentive), but they were unable to influence the company to reverse the policy.
As for the mechanics of this program, the company enlisted the corporate travel agency to create individual FF and hotel accounts for all traveling employees. All employees were required to sign over Power of Attorney on these accounts to the travel agent as a condition of employment. The travel agency would purchase award tickets with the RDMs in the account to augment our business travel. As individuals, we kept the EQMs (and status), but were not allowed to access the RDMs or hotel points for personal use. For rental cars, the TAs negotiated a non-points earning rate, so they were not a factor. The company eliminated this policy about 2 years ago (right before the company was taken over).
Overall, I can't see how they saved any money through this program. Most travel the employees did required extreme flexibility (back in the pre change-fee days), so most refused FF tickets when the TA offered them. When they began to force us to take them, it often led to many change fees and ticket cancellations. Plus they were paying the Corporate TAs (who had a branch on campus to support only our company) a fortune to manage this for us. I suspect the reason that it finally was eliminated was that it was actually costing the company money rather than providing any savings.
As someone who traveled extremely frequently at times over 13 years for the company, I still am quite pissed off about losing the millions of miles I should rightfully have.
When the policy ended, I went in to see if I could salvage what was left. I was able to talk AA and US into allowing me to merge my work and personal accounts (about 50k left in each). However, the other airlines wouldn't allow me to access them for security purposes as the TA loaded a bogus address and birthday for me into these accounts. 
As for the mechanics of this program, the company enlisted the corporate travel agency to create individual FF and hotel accounts for all traveling employees. All employees were required to sign over Power of Attorney on these accounts to the travel agent as a condition of employment. The travel agency would purchase award tickets with the RDMs in the account to augment our business travel. As individuals, we kept the EQMs (and status), but were not allowed to access the RDMs or hotel points for personal use. For rental cars, the TAs negotiated a non-points earning rate, so they were not a factor. The company eliminated this policy about 2 years ago (right before the company was taken over).
Overall, I can't see how they saved any money through this program. Most travel the employees did required extreme flexibility (back in the pre change-fee days), so most refused FF tickets when the TA offered them. When they began to force us to take them, it often led to many change fees and ticket cancellations. Plus they were paying the Corporate TAs (who had a branch on campus to support only our company) a fortune to manage this for us. I suspect the reason that it finally was eliminated was that it was actually costing the company money rather than providing any savings.
As someone who traveled extremely frequently at times over 13 years for the company, I still am quite pissed off about losing the millions of miles I should rightfully have.
When the policy ended, I went in to see if I could salvage what was left. I was able to talk AA and US into allowing me to merge my work and personal accounts (about 50k left in each). However, the other airlines wouldn't allow me to access them for security purposes as the TA loaded a bogus address and birthday for me into these accounts.