Feb 11, 2015, 11:49 am
Last edit by: drewguy
If you've never gone through this process read this before posting!
Note: Please consider that with high probability, United is monitoring this thread, so please pay attention on what you post!
DOT Investigation Updates
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According to USA Today, Ben Mutzabaugh:
Note that United has also accidentally cancelled "legitimate" tickets paid for in USD, purchased in USD from LHR... Please check your other tickets if purchased today to ensure they were not unilaterally cancelled.
However, there is no chance at all that you can have your tickets re-instated if you complain to DOT on the basis of DOT rule § 399.88:
Form for filing DOT complaint. File complaint as soon as your ticket is cancelled.
Link to PDF of enforcement bodies for European customers affected. File complaint as soon as your ticket is cancelled.
Tips for DOT Complaint:
Template For Complaint:
-----
Tips for retrieving your ticket number:
https://www.united.com/web/en-US/app...NRCD=2/11/2015
Freedom of Information Act Request
File #2015-147, Office of the Secretary of Transportation - Receipt acknowledged 3/13/15
http://www.dot.gov/individuals/foia/office-secretary-foia-information
Relevant excerpt from my request on 2/24/15. There no need for multiple requests for the same thing, though feel free to request more or different information obviously. I'll post any updates as I get them.
"Under the Freedom of Information Act, 5 U.S. C. subsection 552, I am requesting access to any and all records of correspondence, including electronic, between anyone working for, or on the behalf of, United Airlines and its subsidiaries, and with anyone working for, or on the behalf of, the Department of Transportation; specifically this would include only the date range beginning on February 11th, 2015 through and including February 24th, 2015.
In addition, I am requesting access to any and all internal records and correspondence in relation to coming to the decision made on February 23rd, 2015 regarding the Office of Aviation Enforcement and Proceedings Determination Regarding United Airlines Mistaken Fare, with the exception of any of the consumer submitted complaints via phone, email, website, or letter. Specifically, this would be any records beginning on February 11th, 2015 through and including February 24th, 2015."
Note: Please consider that with high probability, United is monitoring this thread, so please pay attention on what you post!
DOT Investigation Updates
- 02/23/15: DOT says UA does not have to honor the fare; link to DOT's full explanation (pdf)
- 02/12/15: DOT Statement
- 02/12/15: fox news mentions DOT investigation and mention update by 5:00 pm ET -- posted by xSTRIKEx6864
- 02/12/15: Fox news clip -- posted by FlyingLasse
- 02/12/15: Another clip on fox news interviewing the pointsguy -- posted by FlyingLasse
- 02/12/15: Person in charge at the dot is Alex Taday (don't bombard him with email - or we will all regret it) -- posted by sonofzeus
- 02/12/15: Fox News update: UA honoring fares will depends on complaints made at the DOT.... -- posted by synd
-------
According to USA Today, Ben Mutzabaugh:
United is voiding the bookings of several thousand individuals who were attempting to take advantage of an error a third-party software provider made when it applied an incorrect currency exchange rate, despite United having properly filed its fares. Most of these bookings were for travel originating in the United Kingdom, and the level of bookings made with Danish Kroner as the local currency was significantly higher than normal during the limited period that customers made these bookings.
However, there is no chance at all that you can have your tickets re-instated if you complain to DOT on the basis of DOT rule § 399.88:
§ 399.88 Prohibition on post-purchase price increase.
(a) It is an unfair and deceptive practice within the meaning of 49 U.S.C. 41712 for any seller of scheduled air transportation within, to or from the United States, or of a tour (i.e., a combination of air transportation and ground or cruise accommodations), or tour component (e.g., a hotel stay) that includes scheduled air transportation within, to or from the United States, to increase the price of that air transportation, tour or tour component to a consumer, including but not limited to an increase in the price of the seat, an increase in the price for the carriage of passenger baggage, or an increase in an applicable fuel surcharge, after the air transportation has been purchased by the consumer, except in the case of an increase in a government-imposed tax or fee. A purchase is deemed to have occurred when the full amount agreed upon has been paid by the consumer.
(a) It is an unfair and deceptive practice within the meaning of 49 U.S.C. 41712 for any seller of scheduled air transportation within, to or from the United States, or of a tour (i.e., a combination of air transportation and ground or cruise accommodations), or tour component (e.g., a hotel stay) that includes scheduled air transportation within, to or from the United States, to increase the price of that air transportation, tour or tour component to a consumer, including but not limited to an increase in the price of the seat, an increase in the price for the carriage of passenger baggage, or an increase in an applicable fuel surcharge, after the air transportation has been purchased by the consumer, except in the case of an increase in a government-imposed tax or fee. A purchase is deemed to have occurred when the full amount agreed upon has been paid by the consumer.
Link to PDF of enforcement bodies for European customers affected. File complaint as soon as your ticket is cancelled.
Tips for DOT Complaint:
- File on DOT for every ticket number affected.
- If you have one reservation with four people traveling (four tickets) file 4 DOT complaints, one per ticket.
- If you have separate reservations, file a DOT complaint for each.
- The DOT complaint website may take several minutes to load, depending on demand.
- When you go to upload a file, be careful as it will reset all your radio buttons. So, if you want a copy of the complaint, make sure you double check that "Yes" is still selected before submitting, especially if you upload a file.
Template For Complaint:
United has unilaterally cancelled my ticket without my consent.
Facts:
1. The ticket was ticketed (had a ticket number).
2. I received a confirmation number, ticket number, and emails stating both
3. The ticket was paid for and my credit card charged.
United must reinstate the ticket within its original cabin. This trip is for travel TO the United States.
At no time during the booking process was any other fare than the Danish Krone equivalent displayed. As a reasonable, prudent consumer, I believed I was paying the price displayed to me on the website. United never sent or displayed the equivalent fare in any other currency.
Trip Details
Ticket #: 016XXXXXXXXXX
PNR: XXXXXX
Routing: LHR-EWR-LAX-HNL
Attachments: Attached is a document showing the ticket, routing, and providing proof that the reservation was ticketed.
Filename: Cancelled - UA Reservation - LHR-EWR-LAX-HNL - XXXXXX - 016XXXXXXXXXX.pdf
+-------------------------------------------------------+
| Relevant Law |
| http://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/399.88 |
+-------------------------------------------------------+
§ 399.88 Prohibition on post-purchase price increase.
(a) It is an unfair and deceptive practice within the meaning of 49 U.S.C. 41712 for any seller of scheduled air transportation within, to or from the United States, or of a tour (i.e., a combination of air transportation and ground or cruise accommodations), or tour component (e.g., a hotel stay) that includes scheduled air transportation within, to or from the United States, to increase the price of that air transportation, tour or tour component to a consumer, including but not limited to an increase in the price of the seat, an increase in the price for the carriage of passenger baggage, or an increase in an applicable fuel surcharge, after the air transportation has been purchased by the consumer, except in the case of an increase in a government-imposed tax or fee. A purchase is deemed to have occurred when the full amount agreed upon has been paid by the consumer.
+-------------------------------------------------------+
| Relevant FAQ |
| http://airconsumer.ost.dot.gov/rules/EAPP_2_FAQ.pdf |
+-------------------------------------------------------+
Does the prohibition on post-purchase price increases in section 399.88(a) apply in the situation where a carrier mistakenly offers an airfare due to a computer problem or human error and a consumer purchases the ticket at that fare before the carrier is able to fix the mistake?
Section 399.88(a) states that it is an unfair and deceptive practice for any seller of scheduled air transportation within, to, or from the United States, or of a tour or tour component that includes scheduled air transportation within, to, or from the United States, to increase the price of that air transportation to a consumer after the air transportation has been purchased by the consumer, except in the case of a government-imposed tax or fee and only if the passenger is advised of a possible increase before purchasing a ticket. A purchase occurs when the full amount agreed upon has been paid by the consumer. Therefore, if a consumer purchases a fare and that consumer receives confirmation (such as a confirmation email and/or the purchase appears on their credit card statement or online account summary) of their purchase, then the seller of air transportation cannot increase the price of that air transportation to that consumer, even when the fare is a “mistake.”
Facts:
1. The ticket was ticketed (had a ticket number).
2. I received a confirmation number, ticket number, and emails stating both
3. The ticket was paid for and my credit card charged.
United must reinstate the ticket within its original cabin. This trip is for travel TO the United States.
At no time during the booking process was any other fare than the Danish Krone equivalent displayed. As a reasonable, prudent consumer, I believed I was paying the price displayed to me on the website. United never sent or displayed the equivalent fare in any other currency.
Trip Details
Ticket #: 016XXXXXXXXXX
PNR: XXXXXX
Routing: LHR-EWR-LAX-HNL
Attachments: Attached is a document showing the ticket, routing, and providing proof that the reservation was ticketed.
Filename: Cancelled - UA Reservation - LHR-EWR-LAX-HNL - XXXXXX - 016XXXXXXXXXX.pdf
+-------------------------------------------------------+
| Relevant Law |
| http://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/399.88 |
+-------------------------------------------------------+
§ 399.88 Prohibition on post-purchase price increase.
(a) It is an unfair and deceptive practice within the meaning of 49 U.S.C. 41712 for any seller of scheduled air transportation within, to or from the United States, or of a tour (i.e., a combination of air transportation and ground or cruise accommodations), or tour component (e.g., a hotel stay) that includes scheduled air transportation within, to or from the United States, to increase the price of that air transportation, tour or tour component to a consumer, including but not limited to an increase in the price of the seat, an increase in the price for the carriage of passenger baggage, or an increase in an applicable fuel surcharge, after the air transportation has been purchased by the consumer, except in the case of an increase in a government-imposed tax or fee. A purchase is deemed to have occurred when the full amount agreed upon has been paid by the consumer.
+-------------------------------------------------------+
| Relevant FAQ |
| http://airconsumer.ost.dot.gov/rules/EAPP_2_FAQ.pdf |
+-------------------------------------------------------+
Does the prohibition on post-purchase price increases in section 399.88(a) apply in the situation where a carrier mistakenly offers an airfare due to a computer problem or human error and a consumer purchases the ticket at that fare before the carrier is able to fix the mistake?
Section 399.88(a) states that it is an unfair and deceptive practice for any seller of scheduled air transportation within, to, or from the United States, or of a tour or tour component that includes scheduled air transportation within, to, or from the United States, to increase the price of that air transportation to a consumer after the air transportation has been purchased by the consumer, except in the case of a government-imposed tax or fee and only if the passenger is advised of a possible increase before purchasing a ticket. A purchase occurs when the full amount agreed upon has been paid by the consumer. Therefore, if a consumer purchases a fare and that consumer receives confirmation (such as a confirmation email and/or the purchase appears on their credit card statement or online account summary) of their purchase, then the seller of air transportation cannot increase the price of that air transportation to that consumer, even when the fare is a “mistake.”
Tips for retrieving your ticket number:
- paste(right click copy link location first) following link into your web browser
- change XXXXXX next to COPNR= for your reservation number and LASTNAME next to LN= for you SURNAME
- go to the webpage address you have just created
https://www.united.com/web/en-US/app...NRCD=2/11/2015
Originally Posted by MatthewLAX
Originally Posted by MatthewLAX View Post
R E L A X
Breathe deep.
Congrats on all who got in.
Now comes the fun part.
1. Discovery - mistake fare is posted on FT. Novices frantically checks how much vacation time they have and if the dates of availability mesh with their schedules. Experienced FTers just book it and worry about contacting spouses or their boss later. Word spreads like wildfire.
2. Excitement - Tickets purchased, confirmation emails received and dates of travel shared with other FTers. Discussions of what to see and do and where to stay crop up in other threads. Novices contact source to change seats or inquire about upgrades, Seasoned FTers sit back and enjoy reading the discussion threads.
3. Stress Stage 1 - Concern over paper ticket delivery - Novices Frantically check otheFedEx website every few hours, constant monitoring of driveway for FedEx truck. Seasoned FT veterans sit back and relax.
4. Glee and happiness - Paper tickets in hand, vacation request submitted, spouses finally informed, hotel reservations made and bragging to friends and co-workers begins. Both novices and experts get very excited.
5. Stress Stage 2 - Rumors of fare not being honored, discussion threads about the airline and ticketing agency ensue. Rumors crop up like crabgrass at this stage. Many FTers begin to worry excessively about whether or not the trip will happen. Novices make non-refundable and financial committments to their trip. Seasoned FTers make mixed drinks (and maybe a sandwich) and is patient.
6. Reality Check - Accurate information is obtained - usually takes place a week to 10 days after mistake fare is published. Confirmed information from the source as to whether or not tickets will be honored.
7a. Pure Joy (Icelandair style- Fare is Honored) - Lots of happy people, FT threads on shared information regarding hotels, restaurants, tours, etc. Jealousy from others sets in. First "FT guinea pigs" embark, post confirmation threads that all is ok.
7b Hostile Feelings (Copa Airlines Style - fare is not honored) - Many angry and disappointed FTers. Refunds are issued. Novices have multiple discussion threads of lawsuits and hostile correspondence, FT pros mutter "c'est la vie" and look for the next fare mistake.
8a Success (Honored) - Trip Report thread becomes very active
R E L A X
Breathe deep.
Congrats on all who got in.
Now comes the fun part.
1. Discovery - mistake fare is posted on FT. Novices frantically checks how much vacation time they have and if the dates of availability mesh with their schedules. Experienced FTers just book it and worry about contacting spouses or their boss later. Word spreads like wildfire.
2. Excitement - Tickets purchased, confirmation emails received and dates of travel shared with other FTers. Discussions of what to see and do and where to stay crop up in other threads. Novices contact source to change seats or inquire about upgrades, Seasoned FTers sit back and enjoy reading the discussion threads.
3. Stress Stage 1 - Concern over paper ticket delivery - Novices Frantically check otheFedEx website every few hours, constant monitoring of driveway for FedEx truck. Seasoned FT veterans sit back and relax.
4. Glee and happiness - Paper tickets in hand, vacation request submitted, spouses finally informed, hotel reservations made and bragging to friends and co-workers begins. Both novices and experts get very excited.
5. Stress Stage 2 - Rumors of fare not being honored, discussion threads about the airline and ticketing agency ensue. Rumors crop up like crabgrass at this stage. Many FTers begin to worry excessively about whether or not the trip will happen. Novices make non-refundable and financial committments to their trip. Seasoned FTers make mixed drinks (and maybe a sandwich) and is patient.
6. Reality Check - Accurate information is obtained - usually takes place a week to 10 days after mistake fare is published. Confirmed information from the source as to whether or not tickets will be honored.
7a. Pure Joy (Icelandair style- Fare is Honored) - Lots of happy people, FT threads on shared information regarding hotels, restaurants, tours, etc. Jealousy from others sets in. First "FT guinea pigs" embark, post confirmation threads that all is ok.
7b Hostile Feelings (Copa Airlines Style - fare is not honored) - Many angry and disappointed FTers. Refunds are issued. Novices have multiple discussion threads of lawsuits and hostile correspondence, FT pros mutter "c'est la vie" and look for the next fare mistake.
8a Success (Honored) - Trip Report thread becomes very active
Freedom of Information Act Request
File #2015-147, Office of the Secretary of Transportation - Receipt acknowledged 3/13/15
http://www.dot.gov/individuals/foia/office-secretary-foia-information
Relevant excerpt from my request on 2/24/15. There no need for multiple requests for the same thing, though feel free to request more or different information obviously. I'll post any updates as I get them.
"Under the Freedom of Information Act, 5 U.S. C. subsection 552, I am requesting access to any and all records of correspondence, including electronic, between anyone working for, or on the behalf of, United Airlines and its subsidiaries, and with anyone working for, or on the behalf of, the Department of Transportation; specifically this would include only the date range beginning on February 11th, 2015 through and including February 24th, 2015.
In addition, I am requesting access to any and all internal records and correspondence in relation to coming to the decision made on February 23rd, 2015 regarding the Office of Aviation Enforcement and Proceedings Determination Regarding United Airlines Mistaken Fare, with the exception of any of the consumer submitted complaints via phone, email, website, or letter. Specifically, this would be any records beginning on February 11th, 2015 through and including February 24th, 2015."
[PREM FARE GONE] UA: NCL-EWR 600 DKK (mistaken fare) DOT ruled; see wiki for link
Feb 20, 2015, 2:44 am
#4681
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Londinium
Programs: BAEC
Posts: 930
What bothers me is that these posters have no responses to cogent arguments about how this can't be misrepresentation. Instead they continue with the same arguments that have had more holes poked in them than the ozone layer.
So with no response to that they instead focus on "you're not a lawyer" and generally picking at the minor points of people's posts. Any response to that is met with "you can't stand criticism".
It's gotten tedious.
So with no response to that they instead focus on "you're not a lawyer" and generally picking at the minor points of people's posts. Any response to that is met with "you can't stand criticism".
It's gotten tedious.
Feb 20, 2015, 2:53 am
#4682
Join Date: Apr 2005
Programs: AF/KL FB Plat ; A3 Gold ; HH Gold ; IHG Plat Amb
Posts: 2,380
The reason that UA puts billing address and card issuing country at the same level is because for 99.99% of the times, they are indeed the same, and in the very few cases they differ, the user and/or the airline pay more fees but that happens very rarely: no need to build a 1 million USD system to solve problems that cost a few USD a month.
Feb 20, 2015, 4:20 am
#4683
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: NYC
Posts: 6,434
What bothers me is that these posters have no responses to cogent arguments about how this can't be misrepresentation. Instead they continue with the same arguments that have had more holes poked in them than the ozone layer.
So with no response to that they instead focus on "you're not a lawyer" and generally picking at the minor points of people's posts. Any response to that is met with "you can't stand criticism".
It's gotten tedious.
So with no response to that they instead focus on "you're not a lawyer" and generally picking at the minor points of people's posts. Any response to that is met with "you can't stand criticism".
It's gotten tedious.
The DOT has expressed concern that "individuals are purchasing these tickets in bad faith and not on the mistaken belief that a good deal is now available". There are a lot of judges who reflexively favor corporations over individuals.
Feb 20, 2015, 4:25 am
#4684
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 43
What bothers me is that these posters have no responses to cogent arguments about how this can't be misrepresentation. Instead they continue with the same arguments that have had more holes poked in them than the ozone layer.
So with no response to that they instead focus on "you're not a lawyer" and generally picking at the minor points of people's posts. Any response to that is met with "you can't stand criticism".
It's gotten tedious.
So with no response to that they instead focus on "you're not a lawyer" and generally picking at the minor points of people's posts. Any response to that is met with "you can't stand criticism".
It's gotten tedious.
For everyone else, United just outsourced over a 1000 jobs, including mechanics positions (no offence to anyone who works for an outsourcing firm, but you don't exactly have sterling reputations.)
Hope you all booked codeshares.
Feb 20, 2015, 4:30 am
#4685
Suspended
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Watchlisted by the prejudiced, en route to purgatory
Programs: Just Say No to Fleecing and Blacklisting
Posts: 102,095
A lot of these tickets involved economy class flights. 
And UA voided those issued ticket flight segment coupons too.
That "bad faith" vs "mistaken belief" is a false dichotomy structuring, even as some may find it to be evidence of the US DOT's existing bias in favor of the airlines.
There are people who -- like me -- booked these tickets in Denmark and had their tickets hit by UA too.
The people whom I informed about this opportunity heard from me while I was literally watching planes take off or land from CPH. They were only told that there is a very good deal to fly on United from London to anywhere UA flies if booking it on United.com right now. Even I had no clue that it was a currency issue until well after I had given up booking on United.com that day.
And UA voided those issued ticket flight segment coupons too.The problem isn't whether it really is or isn't misrepresentation in some objective sense, the problem is that the matter will be resolved by decision makers who could well be hostile to this type of transaction and that it can provide an excuse, should they want to do so, for ruling against those who bought the tickets.
The DOT has expressed concern that "individuals are purchasing these tickets in bad faith and not on the mistaken belief that a good deal is now available". There are a lot of judges who reflexively favor corporations over individuals.
The DOT has expressed concern that "individuals are purchasing these tickets in bad faith and not on the mistaken belief that a good deal is now available". There are a lot of judges who reflexively favor corporations over individuals.
There are people who -- like me -- booked these tickets in Denmark and had their tickets hit by UA too.
The people whom I informed about this opportunity heard from me while I was literally watching planes take off or land from CPH. They were only told that there is a very good deal to fly on United from London to anywhere UA flies if booking it on United.com right now. Even I had no clue that it was a currency issue until well after I had given up booking on United.com that day.
Feb 20, 2015, 4:32 am
#4686
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 12
As has been said before, it is impossible to confidently distinguish between those two categories in this case. Spirit Airways has flights right now for 1200+miles which cost $23; ryanair had 30 euro cent fares on a 750 mile route last week. How is an ordinary consumer (not FT member) supposed to know what a mistake is and isn't? They can't, realistically, which leaves them open to predatory cancellations if the DOT rule gets neutered here
Feb 20, 2015, 4:37 am
#4687
Suspended
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Watchlisted by the prejudiced, en route to purgatory
Programs: Just Say No to Fleecing and Blacklisting
Posts: 102,095
As has been said before, it is impossible to confidently distinguish between those two categories in this case. Spirit Airways has flights right now for 1200+miles which cost $23; ryanair had 30 euro cent fares on a 750 mile route last week. How is an ordinary consumer (not FT member) supposed to know what a mistake is and isn't? They can't, realistically, which leaves them open to predatory cancellations if the DOT rule gets neutered here
Feb 20, 2015, 4:42 am
#4688
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Londinium
Programs: BAEC
Posts: 930
All the arguments by people clinging to the hope of a nearly free first class ticket are also tedious... and self-righteous and outrageously self-entitled. And for SCSA's previous rant about hate speech, etc., add "in outer space" to this list. Only someone who is so insecure in the validity of their own arguments would be so upset by any inkling of an opposing opinion.
For everyone else, United just outsourced over a 1000 jobs, including mechanics positions (no offence to anyone who works for an outsourcing firm, but you don't exactly have sterling reputations.)
Hope you all booked codeshares.
For everyone else, United just outsourced over a 1000 jobs, including mechanics positions (no offence to anyone who works for an outsourcing firm, but you don't exactly have sterling reputations.)
Hope you all booked codeshares.
Such a childish tactic: Come out swinging with scurilous accusations, and then when people respond tell them they "hate being criticised". 16 posts on this site, and the vast majority of them are in this thread calling people liars, shameless, and entitled.
Last edited by SCSA; Feb 20, 2015 at 4:53 am
Feb 20, 2015, 4:54 am
#4689
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 12
I don't pay attention to whether or not something may be a mistake or some kind of promotion. I just pay attention to whether or not the hotel-/airline-/OTA-advertised price mentioned is a good deal or not and meets my travel interests or not. When flash deals arise, time is of the essence since there is no time for a lengthy exegesis.
Note that with the Ryanair 30c sale (which was genuine), if you had taken *any* time to try to confirm that the fare was real, you would have failed to get a ticket. So the norm is to buy first, ask questions later - which is a direct result of today's airline fare pricing tactics.
http://www.independent.ie/life/trave...-30990047.html
Feb 20, 2015, 5:02 am
#4692
Join Date: May 2001
Location: TYO
Posts: 1,496
Not just you... of course UA would attempt to try and steer the discourse on this very issue. Whether it's to sway opinion of the ticket holders, or perhaps the DOT who may pop in on the thread to measure consumer sentiment.
Feb 20, 2015, 5:05 am
#4693
Suspended
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Watchlisted by the prejudiced, en route to purgatory
Programs: Just Say No to Fleecing and Blacklisting
Posts: 102,095
I think we need to get back to depersonalizing the topic.
Has anyone else decided to try to check-in on these tickets this weekend? If you do, document your costs involved in it for use in case they deny you transport (unless buying a ticket for the same flights at a different/higher price).
Has anyone else decided to try to check-in on these tickets this weekend? If you do, document your costs involved in it for use in case they deny you transport (unless buying a ticket for the same flights at a different/higher price).
Last edited by GUWonder; Feb 20, 2015 at 5:13 am
Feb 20, 2015, 5:08 am
#4694
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Seattle, WA, USA
Programs: AS MVPG, Hyatt Diamond
Posts: 983
Feb 20, 2015, 5:11 am
#4695
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: SAT
Programs: AA EXP BA Gold, TK Gold, Hyatt Globalist, Hilton Diamond, AS 100K, QR PLT, SAS Gold, IHG Spire, AMR
Posts: 5,898
You have no idea what the courts would do. Neither do I.
Note the case of the woman who is sueing herself in Utah. Weird things happen in US courts.