Feb 11, 2015, 11:49 am
Last edit by: drewguy
If you've never gone through this process read this before posting!
Note: Please consider that with high probability, United is monitoring this thread, so please pay attention on what you post!
DOT Investigation Updates
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According to USA Today, Ben Mutzabaugh:
Note that United has also accidentally cancelled "legitimate" tickets paid for in USD, purchased in USD from LHR... Please check your other tickets if purchased today to ensure they were not unilaterally cancelled.
However, there is no chance at all that you can have your tickets re-instated if you complain to DOT on the basis of DOT rule § 399.88:
Form for filing DOT complaint. File complaint as soon as your ticket is cancelled.
Link to PDF of enforcement bodies for European customers affected. File complaint as soon as your ticket is cancelled.
Tips for DOT Complaint:
Template For Complaint:
-----
Tips for retrieving your ticket number:
https://www.united.com/web/en-US/app...NRCD=2/11/2015
Freedom of Information Act Request
File #2015-147, Office of the Secretary of Transportation - Receipt acknowledged 3/13/15
http://www.dot.gov/individuals/foia/office-secretary-foia-information
Relevant excerpt from my request on 2/24/15. There no need for multiple requests for the same thing, though feel free to request more or different information obviously. I'll post any updates as I get them.
"Under the Freedom of Information Act, 5 U.S. C. subsection 552, I am requesting access to any and all records of correspondence, including electronic, between anyone working for, or on the behalf of, United Airlines and its subsidiaries, and with anyone working for, or on the behalf of, the Department of Transportation; specifically this would include only the date range beginning on February 11th, 2015 through and including February 24th, 2015.
In addition, I am requesting access to any and all internal records and correspondence in relation to coming to the decision made on February 23rd, 2015 regarding the Office of Aviation Enforcement and Proceedings Determination Regarding United Airlines Mistaken Fare, with the exception of any of the consumer submitted complaints via phone, email, website, or letter. Specifically, this would be any records beginning on February 11th, 2015 through and including February 24th, 2015."
Note: Please consider that with high probability, United is monitoring this thread, so please pay attention on what you post!
DOT Investigation Updates
- 02/23/15: DOT says UA does not have to honor the fare; link to DOT's full explanation (pdf)
- 02/12/15: DOT Statement
- 02/12/15: fox news mentions DOT investigation and mention update by 5:00 pm ET -- posted by xSTRIKEx6864
- 02/12/15: Fox news clip -- posted by FlyingLasse
- 02/12/15: Another clip on fox news interviewing the pointsguy -- posted by FlyingLasse
- 02/12/15: Person in charge at the dot is Alex Taday (don't bombard him with email - or we will all regret it) -- posted by sonofzeus
- 02/12/15: Fox News update: UA honoring fares will depends on complaints made at the DOT.... -- posted by synd
-------
According to USA Today, Ben Mutzabaugh:
United is voiding the bookings of several thousand individuals who were attempting to take advantage of an error a third-party software provider made when it applied an incorrect currency exchange rate, despite United having properly filed its fares. Most of these bookings were for travel originating in the United Kingdom, and the level of bookings made with Danish Kroner as the local currency was significantly higher than normal during the limited period that customers made these bookings.
However, there is no chance at all that you can have your tickets re-instated if you complain to DOT on the basis of DOT rule § 399.88:
§ 399.88 Prohibition on post-purchase price increase.
(a) It is an unfair and deceptive practice within the meaning of 49 U.S.C. 41712 for any seller of scheduled air transportation within, to or from the United States, or of a tour (i.e., a combination of air transportation and ground or cruise accommodations), or tour component (e.g., a hotel stay) that includes scheduled air transportation within, to or from the United States, to increase the price of that air transportation, tour or tour component to a consumer, including but not limited to an increase in the price of the seat, an increase in the price for the carriage of passenger baggage, or an increase in an applicable fuel surcharge, after the air transportation has been purchased by the consumer, except in the case of an increase in a government-imposed tax or fee. A purchase is deemed to have occurred when the full amount agreed upon has been paid by the consumer.
(a) It is an unfair and deceptive practice within the meaning of 49 U.S.C. 41712 for any seller of scheduled air transportation within, to or from the United States, or of a tour (i.e., a combination of air transportation and ground or cruise accommodations), or tour component (e.g., a hotel stay) that includes scheduled air transportation within, to or from the United States, to increase the price of that air transportation, tour or tour component to a consumer, including but not limited to an increase in the price of the seat, an increase in the price for the carriage of passenger baggage, or an increase in an applicable fuel surcharge, after the air transportation has been purchased by the consumer, except in the case of an increase in a government-imposed tax or fee. A purchase is deemed to have occurred when the full amount agreed upon has been paid by the consumer.
Link to PDF of enforcement bodies for European customers affected. File complaint as soon as your ticket is cancelled.
Tips for DOT Complaint:
- File on DOT for every ticket number affected.
- If you have one reservation with four people traveling (four tickets) file 4 DOT complaints, one per ticket.
- If you have separate reservations, file a DOT complaint for each.
- The DOT complaint website may take several minutes to load, depending on demand.
- When you go to upload a file, be careful as it will reset all your radio buttons. So, if you want a copy of the complaint, make sure you double check that "Yes" is still selected before submitting, especially if you upload a file.
Template For Complaint:
United has unilaterally cancelled my ticket without my consent.
Facts:
1. The ticket was ticketed (had a ticket number).
2. I received a confirmation number, ticket number, and emails stating both
3. The ticket was paid for and my credit card charged.
United must reinstate the ticket within its original cabin. This trip is for travel TO the United States.
At no time during the booking process was any other fare than the Danish Krone equivalent displayed. As a reasonable, prudent consumer, I believed I was paying the price displayed to me on the website. United never sent or displayed the equivalent fare in any other currency.
Trip Details
Ticket #: 016XXXXXXXXXX
PNR: XXXXXX
Routing: LHR-EWR-LAX-HNL
Attachments: Attached is a document showing the ticket, routing, and providing proof that the reservation was ticketed.
Filename: Cancelled - UA Reservation - LHR-EWR-LAX-HNL - XXXXXX - 016XXXXXXXXXX.pdf
+-------------------------------------------------------+
| Relevant Law |
| http://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/399.88 |
+-------------------------------------------------------+
§ 399.88 Prohibition on post-purchase price increase.
(a) It is an unfair and deceptive practice within the meaning of 49 U.S.C. 41712 for any seller of scheduled air transportation within, to or from the United States, or of a tour (i.e., a combination of air transportation and ground or cruise accommodations), or tour component (e.g., a hotel stay) that includes scheduled air transportation within, to or from the United States, to increase the price of that air transportation, tour or tour component to a consumer, including but not limited to an increase in the price of the seat, an increase in the price for the carriage of passenger baggage, or an increase in an applicable fuel surcharge, after the air transportation has been purchased by the consumer, except in the case of an increase in a government-imposed tax or fee. A purchase is deemed to have occurred when the full amount agreed upon has been paid by the consumer.
+-------------------------------------------------------+
| Relevant FAQ |
| http://airconsumer.ost.dot.gov/rules/EAPP_2_FAQ.pdf |
+-------------------------------------------------------+
Does the prohibition on post-purchase price increases in section 399.88(a) apply in the situation where a carrier mistakenly offers an airfare due to a computer problem or human error and a consumer purchases the ticket at that fare before the carrier is able to fix the mistake?
Section 399.88(a) states that it is an unfair and deceptive practice for any seller of scheduled air transportation within, to, or from the United States, or of a tour or tour component that includes scheduled air transportation within, to, or from the United States, to increase the price of that air transportation to a consumer after the air transportation has been purchased by the consumer, except in the case of a government-imposed tax or fee and only if the passenger is advised of a possible increase before purchasing a ticket. A purchase occurs when the full amount agreed upon has been paid by the consumer. Therefore, if a consumer purchases a fare and that consumer receives confirmation (such as a confirmation email and/or the purchase appears on their credit card statement or online account summary) of their purchase, then the seller of air transportation cannot increase the price of that air transportation to that consumer, even when the fare is a “mistake.”
Facts:
1. The ticket was ticketed (had a ticket number).
2. I received a confirmation number, ticket number, and emails stating both
3. The ticket was paid for and my credit card charged.
United must reinstate the ticket within its original cabin. This trip is for travel TO the United States.
At no time during the booking process was any other fare than the Danish Krone equivalent displayed. As a reasonable, prudent consumer, I believed I was paying the price displayed to me on the website. United never sent or displayed the equivalent fare in any other currency.
Trip Details
Ticket #: 016XXXXXXXXXX
PNR: XXXXXX
Routing: LHR-EWR-LAX-HNL
Attachments: Attached is a document showing the ticket, routing, and providing proof that the reservation was ticketed.
Filename: Cancelled - UA Reservation - LHR-EWR-LAX-HNL - XXXXXX - 016XXXXXXXXXX.pdf
+-------------------------------------------------------+
| Relevant Law |
| http://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/399.88 |
+-------------------------------------------------------+
§ 399.88 Prohibition on post-purchase price increase.
(a) It is an unfair and deceptive practice within the meaning of 49 U.S.C. 41712 for any seller of scheduled air transportation within, to or from the United States, or of a tour (i.e., a combination of air transportation and ground or cruise accommodations), or tour component (e.g., a hotel stay) that includes scheduled air transportation within, to or from the United States, to increase the price of that air transportation, tour or tour component to a consumer, including but not limited to an increase in the price of the seat, an increase in the price for the carriage of passenger baggage, or an increase in an applicable fuel surcharge, after the air transportation has been purchased by the consumer, except in the case of an increase in a government-imposed tax or fee. A purchase is deemed to have occurred when the full amount agreed upon has been paid by the consumer.
+-------------------------------------------------------+
| Relevant FAQ |
| http://airconsumer.ost.dot.gov/rules/EAPP_2_FAQ.pdf |
+-------------------------------------------------------+
Does the prohibition on post-purchase price increases in section 399.88(a) apply in the situation where a carrier mistakenly offers an airfare due to a computer problem or human error and a consumer purchases the ticket at that fare before the carrier is able to fix the mistake?
Section 399.88(a) states that it is an unfair and deceptive practice for any seller of scheduled air transportation within, to, or from the United States, or of a tour or tour component that includes scheduled air transportation within, to, or from the United States, to increase the price of that air transportation to a consumer after the air transportation has been purchased by the consumer, except in the case of a government-imposed tax or fee and only if the passenger is advised of a possible increase before purchasing a ticket. A purchase occurs when the full amount agreed upon has been paid by the consumer. Therefore, if a consumer purchases a fare and that consumer receives confirmation (such as a confirmation email and/or the purchase appears on their credit card statement or online account summary) of their purchase, then the seller of air transportation cannot increase the price of that air transportation to that consumer, even when the fare is a “mistake.”
Tips for retrieving your ticket number:
- paste(right click copy link location first) following link into your web browser
- change XXXXXX next to COPNR= for your reservation number and LASTNAME next to LN= for you SURNAME
- go to the webpage address you have just created
https://www.united.com/web/en-US/app...NRCD=2/11/2015
Originally Posted by MatthewLAX
Originally Posted by MatthewLAX View Post
R E L A X
Breathe deep.
Congrats on all who got in.
Now comes the fun part.
1. Discovery - mistake fare is posted on FT. Novices frantically checks how much vacation time they have and if the dates of availability mesh with their schedules. Experienced FTers just book it and worry about contacting spouses or their boss later. Word spreads like wildfire.
2. Excitement - Tickets purchased, confirmation emails received and dates of travel shared with other FTers. Discussions of what to see and do and where to stay crop up in other threads. Novices contact source to change seats or inquire about upgrades, Seasoned FTers sit back and enjoy reading the discussion threads.
3. Stress Stage 1 - Concern over paper ticket delivery - Novices Frantically check otheFedEx website every few hours, constant monitoring of driveway for FedEx truck. Seasoned FT veterans sit back and relax.
4. Glee and happiness - Paper tickets in hand, vacation request submitted, spouses finally informed, hotel reservations made and bragging to friends and co-workers begins. Both novices and experts get very excited.
5. Stress Stage 2 - Rumors of fare not being honored, discussion threads about the airline and ticketing agency ensue. Rumors crop up like crabgrass at this stage. Many FTers begin to worry excessively about whether or not the trip will happen. Novices make non-refundable and financial committments to their trip. Seasoned FTers make mixed drinks (and maybe a sandwich) and is patient.
6. Reality Check - Accurate information is obtained - usually takes place a week to 10 days after mistake fare is published. Confirmed information from the source as to whether or not tickets will be honored.
7a. Pure Joy (Icelandair style- Fare is Honored) - Lots of happy people, FT threads on shared information regarding hotels, restaurants, tours, etc. Jealousy from others sets in. First "FT guinea pigs" embark, post confirmation threads that all is ok.
7b Hostile Feelings (Copa Airlines Style - fare is not honored) - Many angry and disappointed FTers. Refunds are issued. Novices have multiple discussion threads of lawsuits and hostile correspondence, FT pros mutter "c'est la vie" and look for the next fare mistake.
8a Success (Honored) - Trip Report thread becomes very active
R E L A X
Breathe deep.
Congrats on all who got in.
Now comes the fun part.
1. Discovery - mistake fare is posted on FT. Novices frantically checks how much vacation time they have and if the dates of availability mesh with their schedules. Experienced FTers just book it and worry about contacting spouses or their boss later. Word spreads like wildfire.
2. Excitement - Tickets purchased, confirmation emails received and dates of travel shared with other FTers. Discussions of what to see and do and where to stay crop up in other threads. Novices contact source to change seats or inquire about upgrades, Seasoned FTers sit back and enjoy reading the discussion threads.
3. Stress Stage 1 - Concern over paper ticket delivery - Novices Frantically check otheFedEx website every few hours, constant monitoring of driveway for FedEx truck. Seasoned FT veterans sit back and relax.
4. Glee and happiness - Paper tickets in hand, vacation request submitted, spouses finally informed, hotel reservations made and bragging to friends and co-workers begins. Both novices and experts get very excited.
5. Stress Stage 2 - Rumors of fare not being honored, discussion threads about the airline and ticketing agency ensue. Rumors crop up like crabgrass at this stage. Many FTers begin to worry excessively about whether or not the trip will happen. Novices make non-refundable and financial committments to their trip. Seasoned FTers make mixed drinks (and maybe a sandwich) and is patient.
6. Reality Check - Accurate information is obtained - usually takes place a week to 10 days after mistake fare is published. Confirmed information from the source as to whether or not tickets will be honored.
7a. Pure Joy (Icelandair style- Fare is Honored) - Lots of happy people, FT threads on shared information regarding hotels, restaurants, tours, etc. Jealousy from others sets in. First "FT guinea pigs" embark, post confirmation threads that all is ok.
7b Hostile Feelings (Copa Airlines Style - fare is not honored) - Many angry and disappointed FTers. Refunds are issued. Novices have multiple discussion threads of lawsuits and hostile correspondence, FT pros mutter "c'est la vie" and look for the next fare mistake.
8a Success (Honored) - Trip Report thread becomes very active
Freedom of Information Act Request
File #2015-147, Office of the Secretary of Transportation - Receipt acknowledged 3/13/15
http://www.dot.gov/individuals/foia/office-secretary-foia-information
Relevant excerpt from my request on 2/24/15. There no need for multiple requests for the same thing, though feel free to request more or different information obviously. I'll post any updates as I get them.
"Under the Freedom of Information Act, 5 U.S. C. subsection 552, I am requesting access to any and all records of correspondence, including electronic, between anyone working for, or on the behalf of, United Airlines and its subsidiaries, and with anyone working for, or on the behalf of, the Department of Transportation; specifically this would include only the date range beginning on February 11th, 2015 through and including February 24th, 2015.
In addition, I am requesting access to any and all internal records and correspondence in relation to coming to the decision made on February 23rd, 2015 regarding the Office of Aviation Enforcement and Proceedings Determination Regarding United Airlines Mistaken Fare, with the exception of any of the consumer submitted complaints via phone, email, website, or letter. Specifically, this would be any records beginning on February 11th, 2015 through and including February 24th, 2015."
[PREM FARE GONE] UA: NCL-EWR 600 DKK (mistaken fare) DOT ruled; see wiki for link
Feb 20, 2015, 11:02 am
#4756
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: LHR
Programs: M&M,HH Gold,Accor Plat.,Priority Club Plat. Ambassador,Club Carlson Gold,Marriott Gold,GHA Plat.
Posts: 1,627
Exactly. I am not sure everyone here understands that billing address is a crucial tool for most online retailers to verify whether the person purchasing is legit. They know if a false billing country has been used as per my previous post.
THAT SAID, before I get attacked....United have already cancelled the tickets for other reasons i.e. that the price was a mistake. If DOT ruled against UA, it would seem difficult for them to turn around now and say "OK well we are now cancelling most of them because they used a false billing address". I guess it is possible but I think it is far from clearcut legally speaking.
THAT SAID, before I get attacked....United have already cancelled the tickets for other reasons i.e. that the price was a mistake. If DOT ruled against UA, it would seem difficult for them to turn around now and say "OK well we are now cancelling most of them because they used a false billing address". I guess it is possible but I think it is far from clearcut legally speaking.
After the introduction of the secure code tools, this is not necessary anymore; I mean, of course the address is necessary, but you can prove your valid purchase, simply showing your credit card or your credit card statement, maybe printed 3 h before check-in! Personally it happened 2 times to me to use my wrong address (wrong zip code or wrong street address due to a house moving) but this don't entitle any airline to cancel your tkt or deny your boarding, since you can prove your personal details. And , in that case, I would sue them to the court!
So, guys, calm down!
Feb 20, 2015, 11:03 am
#4757
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: London / Los Angeles
Programs: Hilton Diamond, IHG Diamond Ambassador, Marriott Platinum, Hyatt Globalist, BA Silver
Posts: 1,631
Wow lots of noise on this thread, especially from people with no understanding of the law. A key question here is appears to me to be whether one element of the booking process that appears to exist primarily (entirely?) as a mechanism to protect UA from unauthorized use of credit cards in booking process could be turned back on actual authorized user of such card as means for UA to void contract (or argue none had been created in first place). I look forward to reading the briefs on that issue if UA winds up pursuing it.
Feb 20, 2015, 11:05 am
#4758
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: NY
Programs: The local deli gives me 1 free sandwich after I buy 10
Posts: 4,026
There's a lot of legalese being thrown around here--some relevant but mostly not, some correct, but mostly not. As a recovering lawyer, one thing I know to be true is this: when it comes to legal analysis, you get what you pay for and this thread certainly confirms it. This post is, admittedly, no exception, but I wanted to add two points anyway.
First, although we still don't know who the mysterious third party is, keep in mind the possibility that UA's contract with the third party requires that UA try to minimize or mitigate the damages caused by the mistake before UA can claim any damages from the third party for the third party's mistakes. It's possible that if the DOT ultimately sides with passengers, UA will have no liability itself but will have a massive, well-founded claim against the third party and will be able to argue in that claim that it tried (by canceling the tickets) to minimize the damage, at least it was until it was legally compelled to honor them. Short version: UA may have canceled to preserve its rights against the third party even if it expects ultimately to honor the tickets.
Second, on the topic of mitigation and UA's use of "big data" (see a bunch of earlier posts), let's all remember that if UA had some very simple, common sense checks built into their ticketing engine, this all could have been avoided. Imagine, for example, a simple rule that said that any international RT first class ticket sold for less than $250 USD would need to be confirmed by an actual human before being confirmed/ticketed. FT posters could easily put together a list of common sense checks like this in ten minutes. In the grand scheme of things, this very simple measure would prevent events like this one from occurring without adding delay to normal ticketing. If airlines are going to engage in strategic pricing via geographic price discrimination, as they all currently do, I don't think it's unreasonable for DOT or others to require airlines, rather than consumers, to carry the burden of ensuring that the prices paid are correct before itineraries are confirmed/ticketed. And that's something I believe the current rules regarding post-confirmation changes accomplish. The fact that the DOT hasn't already softened its rules despite having concerns about "bad faith" practices by travelers suggests to me that, at least for now, they remain concerned about preserving the sanctity of "confirmed" tickets. We'll see if that changes, but as a frequent traveler, I hope it doesn't.
Full disclosure: I did not buy one of these tickets but know others who did and am keenly interested in how this plays out.
First, although we still don't know who the mysterious third party is, keep in mind the possibility that UA's contract with the third party requires that UA try to minimize or mitigate the damages caused by the mistake before UA can claim any damages from the third party for the third party's mistakes. It's possible that if the DOT ultimately sides with passengers, UA will have no liability itself but will have a massive, well-founded claim against the third party and will be able to argue in that claim that it tried (by canceling the tickets) to minimize the damage, at least it was until it was legally compelled to honor them. Short version: UA may have canceled to preserve its rights against the third party even if it expects ultimately to honor the tickets.
Second, on the topic of mitigation and UA's use of "big data" (see a bunch of earlier posts), let's all remember that if UA had some very simple, common sense checks built into their ticketing engine, this all could have been avoided. Imagine, for example, a simple rule that said that any international RT first class ticket sold for less than $250 USD would need to be confirmed by an actual human before being confirmed/ticketed. FT posters could easily put together a list of common sense checks like this in ten minutes. In the grand scheme of things, this very simple measure would prevent events like this one from occurring without adding delay to normal ticketing. If airlines are going to engage in strategic pricing via geographic price discrimination, as they all currently do, I don't think it's unreasonable for DOT or others to require airlines, rather than consumers, to carry the burden of ensuring that the prices paid are correct before itineraries are confirmed/ticketed. And that's something I believe the current rules regarding post-confirmation changes accomplish. The fact that the DOT hasn't already softened its rules despite having concerns about "bad faith" practices by travelers suggests to me that, at least for now, they remain concerned about preserving the sanctity of "confirmed" tickets. We'll see if that changes, but as a frequent traveler, I hope it doesn't.
Full disclosure: I did not buy one of these tickets but know others who did and am keenly interested in how this plays out.
^ I will keep this in my personal WIKI for later use.
Feb 20, 2015, 11:10 am
#4759
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: London / Los Angeles
Programs: Hilton Diamond, IHG Diamond Ambassador, Marriott Platinum, Hyatt Globalist, BA Silver
Posts: 1,631
Well, as already discussed about 200 pages behind, in the past, the address was used as proof of autentication because, before the introduction of the MasterCard SecureCode/Visa Verified, every person who was literally handling a credit card, could have used it to book flights, even if he wasn't entitled for (basically making a fraud!). Often, to verify transactions banks were used to make a call to the customer (I've received several for this reasons).
After the introduction of the secure code tools, this is not necessary anymore; I mean, of course the address is necessary, but you can prove your valid purchase, simply showing your credit card or your credit card statement, maybe printed 3 h before check-in! Personally it happened 2 times to me to use my wrong address (wrong zip code or wrong street address due to a house moving) but this don't entitle any airline to cancel your tkt or deny your boarding, since you can prove your personal details. And , in that case, I would sue them to the court!
So, guys, calm down!
After the introduction of the secure code tools, this is not necessary anymore; I mean, of course the address is necessary, but you can prove your valid purchase, simply showing your credit card or your credit card statement, maybe printed 3 h before check-in! Personally it happened 2 times to me to use my wrong address (wrong zip code or wrong street address due to a house moving) but this don't entitle any airline to cancel your tkt or deny your boarding, since you can prove your personal details. And , in that case, I would sue them to the court!
So, guys, calm down!
I am NOT saying that because United know you used an incorrect country in your billing address that they can void the purchase based on this. I think that would be a completely separate question.
Feb 20, 2015, 11:25 am
#4760
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: NYC
Posts: 6,433
Wow lots of noise on this thread, especially from people with no understanding of the law. A key question here is appears to me to be whether one element of the booking process that appears to exist primarily (entirely?) as a mechanism to protect UA from unauthorized use of credit cards in booking process could be turned back on actual authorized user of such card as means for UA to void contract (or argue none had been created in first place). I look forward to reading the briefs on that issue if UA winds up pursuing it.
Feb 20, 2015, 11:34 am
#4761
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: BOS/ORH
Programs: AS 75K
Posts: 18,323
To the chastising moralists out there. Did I just commit fraud? I tried to book a flight on Air New Zealand's website. The site defaulted me to the US version. The prices were way too high. I went to the bottom of their page and switched to New Zealand and the cost was cut in half. Their site even works properly regardless of what country I put for my billing address. Place of sale is not a residency requirement no matter what anyone wishes to say.
Feb 20, 2015, 11:40 am
#4762
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: CLE
Programs: AA Exec Plat, Hilton Diamond, Hertz PC
Posts: 5,538
To the chastising moralists out there. Did I just commit fraud? I tried to book a flight on Air New Zealand's website. The site defaulted me to the US version. The prices were way too high. I went to the bottom of their page and switched to New Zealand and the cost was cut in half. Their site even works properly regardless of what country I put for my billing address
Feb 20, 2015, 11:42 am
#4764
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: BOS/ORH
Programs: AS 75K
Posts: 18,323
Feb 20, 2015, 12:02 pm
#4767
Join Date: Feb 2015
Programs: united
Posts: 1,636
To the chastising moralists out there. Did I just commit fraud? I tried to book a flight on Air New Zealand's website. The site defaulted me to the US version. The prices were way too high. I went to the bottom of their page and switched to New Zealand and the cost was cut in half. Their site even works properly regardless of what country I put for my billing address. Place of sale is not a residency requirement no matter what anyone wishes to say.
And to be clear, under many definitions of fraud, doing that to induce the airline to make a mistake isn't fraud either.
But under some of the broader definitions of fraud, a false statement is not required- just a misleading or incomplete one.
Feb 20, 2015, 12:04 pm
#4768
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Somewhere on the globe
Posts: 22
..Also, something else that should be food for thought on why the DOT will not act: in regular mistake fare cases, the fare itself is loaded into the global distribution system (GDS) wrong. That in and of itself limits the airline's exposure, because the fare will sell out under its typical conditions (like, 35 seats total). The problem with this situation (and why I've hesitated to call it a "mistake fare") is that there is no issue with the fare -- the issue was with the GBP to DKK conversion (a convenience for flyers!) and therefore did not apply to any one fare, but literally, all of UA's inventory. So instead of 35 lucky people, should UA ever announce it, I bet we will find out that about 35,000 tickets were sold...
I will not bet on the number but 35,000 seems quite high. Perhaps you have information from United that substantiates that number? Or are you just making up some random number without any knowledge?
Feb 20, 2015, 12:06 pm
#4769
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Programs: IHG Plat Amb, United Silver Prem, CC Gold, BA Silver,
Posts: 2
I deliberately didn't post for a few days, just to see how this was going.
I'm a UK citizen, and take around 100 flights per year.
I regularly test prices from airlines' various regional sites for my travels, as there definitely are variations which I work to my advantage. Here in the UK / Europe, that is entirely legal - we cannot discriminate or be discriminated against because of our location inside the Eurozone. In fact, it's been a known loophole in transatlantic flying for some time.
The amount can vary up to as much as a couple of hundred dollars per ticket, so is always worth spending some time checking the options. Yes, clearly this was a mistake. Just like the few times I've picked a wrong date for a flight, realise a minute after confirmation, immediately call the airline and they're happy to help me for an additional $200 plus whatever the difference in ticket costs might be.
I work for a software vendor. We have indemnity insurance in case of things going wrong because of our software which impacts on our customers business. I was able to get 2 tickets at this price and of course would love these to be honoured.
As many other posters here say, for too long all airlines have been raising costs and lowering service/standards/benefits, moreso for frequent flyers. I'd love to catch a break with this but won't lose sleep if the DoT decide UA were right to cancel these, though I think they should be made to make some amends.
I complained directly to United who sent me a mail again saying this was a 3rd party error. I pointed out that as I understand it, that doesn't actually impact their agreement with me.
I'm not hopeful of course.
I'm a UK citizen, and take around 100 flights per year.
I regularly test prices from airlines' various regional sites for my travels, as there definitely are variations which I work to my advantage. Here in the UK / Europe, that is entirely legal - we cannot discriminate or be discriminated against because of our location inside the Eurozone. In fact, it's been a known loophole in transatlantic flying for some time.
The amount can vary up to as much as a couple of hundred dollars per ticket, so is always worth spending some time checking the options. Yes, clearly this was a mistake. Just like the few times I've picked a wrong date for a flight, realise a minute after confirmation, immediately call the airline and they're happy to help me for an additional $200 plus whatever the difference in ticket costs might be.
I work for a software vendor. We have indemnity insurance in case of things going wrong because of our software which impacts on our customers business. I was able to get 2 tickets at this price and of course would love these to be honoured.
As many other posters here say, for too long all airlines have been raising costs and lowering service/standards/benefits, moreso for frequent flyers. I'd love to catch a break with this but won't lose sleep if the DoT decide UA were right to cancel these, though I think they should be made to make some amends.
I complained directly to United who sent me a mail again saying this was a 3rd party error. I pointed out that as I understand it, that doesn't actually impact their agreement with me.
I'm not hopeful of course.
Feb 20, 2015, 12:07 pm
#4770
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: LRM
Programs: UA/DL plat to AA
Posts: 525
...That's part of why I think the DOT won't enforce it. There is a common axiom in law to not apply statutes and regulations in a manner that would lead to absurd results. And no matter how much you and I want to take these flights up in GlobalFirst, that would be an absurd result.
At the same time, I think there is validity to the argument that UA, and other carriers, should employ processes and means to safeguard against such mistakes being presented to the public in the first place. In this case, it it can be argued that they don't have reasonable processes in place (we don't exactly the technology/processes they do have; they will argue that they are reasonable, and there is always a chance that these arguments will be persuasive). If I had to guess, I'd say there would be a fine for UA to make sure that they understand this.
Just an opinion, my $0.02 (how does that convert to DKK?)