Feb 11, 2015, 11:49 am
Last edit by: drewguy
If you've never gone through this process read this before posting!
Note: Please consider that with high probability, United is monitoring this thread, so please pay attention on what you post!
DOT Investigation Updates
-------
According to USA Today, Ben Mutzabaugh:
Note that United has also accidentally cancelled "legitimate" tickets paid for in USD, purchased in USD from LHR... Please check your other tickets if purchased today to ensure they were not unilaterally cancelled.
However, there is no chance at all that you can have your tickets re-instated if you complain to DOT on the basis of DOT rule § 399.88:
Form for filing DOT complaint. File complaint as soon as your ticket is cancelled.
Link to PDF of enforcement bodies for European customers affected. File complaint as soon as your ticket is cancelled.
Tips for DOT Complaint:
Template For Complaint:
-----
Tips for retrieving your ticket number:
https://www.united.com/web/en-US/app...NRCD=2/11/2015
Freedom of Information Act Request
File #2015-147, Office of the Secretary of Transportation - Receipt acknowledged 3/13/15
http://www.dot.gov/individuals/foia/office-secretary-foia-information
Relevant excerpt from my request on 2/24/15. There no need for multiple requests for the same thing, though feel free to request more or different information obviously. I'll post any updates as I get them.
"Under the Freedom of Information Act, 5 U.S. C. subsection 552, I am requesting access to any and all records of correspondence, including electronic, between anyone working for, or on the behalf of, United Airlines and its subsidiaries, and with anyone working for, or on the behalf of, the Department of Transportation; specifically this would include only the date range beginning on February 11th, 2015 through and including February 24th, 2015.
In addition, I am requesting access to any and all internal records and correspondence in relation to coming to the decision made on February 23rd, 2015 regarding the Office of Aviation Enforcement and Proceedings Determination Regarding United Airlines Mistaken Fare, with the exception of any of the consumer submitted complaints via phone, email, website, or letter. Specifically, this would be any records beginning on February 11th, 2015 through and including February 24th, 2015."
Note: Please consider that with high probability, United is monitoring this thread, so please pay attention on what you post!
DOT Investigation Updates
- 02/23/15: DOT says UA does not have to honor the fare; link to DOT's full explanation (pdf)
- 02/12/15: DOT Statement
- 02/12/15: fox news mentions DOT investigation and mention update by 5:00 pm ET -- posted by xSTRIKEx6864
- 02/12/15: Fox news clip -- posted by FlyingLasse
- 02/12/15: Another clip on fox news interviewing the pointsguy -- posted by FlyingLasse
- 02/12/15: Person in charge at the dot is Alex Taday (don't bombard him with email - or we will all regret it) -- posted by sonofzeus
- 02/12/15: Fox News update: UA honoring fares will depends on complaints made at the DOT.... -- posted by synd
-------
According to USA Today, Ben Mutzabaugh:
United is voiding the bookings of several thousand individuals who were attempting to take advantage of an error a third-party software provider made when it applied an incorrect currency exchange rate, despite United having properly filed its fares. Most of these bookings were for travel originating in the United Kingdom, and the level of bookings made with Danish Kroner as the local currency was significantly higher than normal during the limited period that customers made these bookings.
However, there is no chance at all that you can have your tickets re-instated if you complain to DOT on the basis of DOT rule § 399.88:
§ 399.88 Prohibition on post-purchase price increase.
(a) It is an unfair and deceptive practice within the meaning of 49 U.S.C. 41712 for any seller of scheduled air transportation within, to or from the United States, or of a tour (i.e., a combination of air transportation and ground or cruise accommodations), or tour component (e.g., a hotel stay) that includes scheduled air transportation within, to or from the United States, to increase the price of that air transportation, tour or tour component to a consumer, including but not limited to an increase in the price of the seat, an increase in the price for the carriage of passenger baggage, or an increase in an applicable fuel surcharge, after the air transportation has been purchased by the consumer, except in the case of an increase in a government-imposed tax or fee. A purchase is deemed to have occurred when the full amount agreed upon has been paid by the consumer.
(a) It is an unfair and deceptive practice within the meaning of 49 U.S.C. 41712 for any seller of scheduled air transportation within, to or from the United States, or of a tour (i.e., a combination of air transportation and ground or cruise accommodations), or tour component (e.g., a hotel stay) that includes scheduled air transportation within, to or from the United States, to increase the price of that air transportation, tour or tour component to a consumer, including but not limited to an increase in the price of the seat, an increase in the price for the carriage of passenger baggage, or an increase in an applicable fuel surcharge, after the air transportation has been purchased by the consumer, except in the case of an increase in a government-imposed tax or fee. A purchase is deemed to have occurred when the full amount agreed upon has been paid by the consumer.
Link to PDF of enforcement bodies for European customers affected. File complaint as soon as your ticket is cancelled.
Tips for DOT Complaint:
- File on DOT for every ticket number affected.
- If you have one reservation with four people traveling (four tickets) file 4 DOT complaints, one per ticket.
- If you have separate reservations, file a DOT complaint for each.
- The DOT complaint website may take several minutes to load, depending on demand.
- When you go to upload a file, be careful as it will reset all your radio buttons. So, if you want a copy of the complaint, make sure you double check that "Yes" is still selected before submitting, especially if you upload a file.
Template For Complaint:
United has unilaterally cancelled my ticket without my consent.
Facts:
1. The ticket was ticketed (had a ticket number).
2. I received a confirmation number, ticket number, and emails stating both
3. The ticket was paid for and my credit card charged.
United must reinstate the ticket within its original cabin. This trip is for travel TO the United States.
At no time during the booking process was any other fare than the Danish Krone equivalent displayed. As a reasonable, prudent consumer, I believed I was paying the price displayed to me on the website. United never sent or displayed the equivalent fare in any other currency.
Trip Details
Ticket #: 016XXXXXXXXXX
PNR: XXXXXX
Routing: LHR-EWR-LAX-HNL
Attachments: Attached is a document showing the ticket, routing, and providing proof that the reservation was ticketed.
Filename: Cancelled - UA Reservation - LHR-EWR-LAX-HNL - XXXXXX - 016XXXXXXXXXX.pdf
+-------------------------------------------------------+
| Relevant Law |
| http://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/399.88 |
+-------------------------------------------------------+
§ 399.88 Prohibition on post-purchase price increase.
(a) It is an unfair and deceptive practice within the meaning of 49 U.S.C. 41712 for any seller of scheduled air transportation within, to or from the United States, or of a tour (i.e., a combination of air transportation and ground or cruise accommodations), or tour component (e.g., a hotel stay) that includes scheduled air transportation within, to or from the United States, to increase the price of that air transportation, tour or tour component to a consumer, including but not limited to an increase in the price of the seat, an increase in the price for the carriage of passenger baggage, or an increase in an applicable fuel surcharge, after the air transportation has been purchased by the consumer, except in the case of an increase in a government-imposed tax or fee. A purchase is deemed to have occurred when the full amount agreed upon has been paid by the consumer.
+-------------------------------------------------------+
| Relevant FAQ |
| http://airconsumer.ost.dot.gov/rules/EAPP_2_FAQ.pdf |
+-------------------------------------------------------+
Does the prohibition on post-purchase price increases in section 399.88(a) apply in the situation where a carrier mistakenly offers an airfare due to a computer problem or human error and a consumer purchases the ticket at that fare before the carrier is able to fix the mistake?
Section 399.88(a) states that it is an unfair and deceptive practice for any seller of scheduled air transportation within, to, or from the United States, or of a tour or tour component that includes scheduled air transportation within, to, or from the United States, to increase the price of that air transportation to a consumer after the air transportation has been purchased by the consumer, except in the case of a government-imposed tax or fee and only if the passenger is advised of a possible increase before purchasing a ticket. A purchase occurs when the full amount agreed upon has been paid by the consumer. Therefore, if a consumer purchases a fare and that consumer receives confirmation (such as a confirmation email and/or the purchase appears on their credit card statement or online account summary) of their purchase, then the seller of air transportation cannot increase the price of that air transportation to that consumer, even when the fare is a “mistake.”
Facts:
1. The ticket was ticketed (had a ticket number).
2. I received a confirmation number, ticket number, and emails stating both
3. The ticket was paid for and my credit card charged.
United must reinstate the ticket within its original cabin. This trip is for travel TO the United States.
At no time during the booking process was any other fare than the Danish Krone equivalent displayed. As a reasonable, prudent consumer, I believed I was paying the price displayed to me on the website. United never sent or displayed the equivalent fare in any other currency.
Trip Details
Ticket #: 016XXXXXXXXXX
PNR: XXXXXX
Routing: LHR-EWR-LAX-HNL
Attachments: Attached is a document showing the ticket, routing, and providing proof that the reservation was ticketed.
Filename: Cancelled - UA Reservation - LHR-EWR-LAX-HNL - XXXXXX - 016XXXXXXXXXX.pdf
+-------------------------------------------------------+
| Relevant Law |
| http://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/399.88 |
+-------------------------------------------------------+
§ 399.88 Prohibition on post-purchase price increase.
(a) It is an unfair and deceptive practice within the meaning of 49 U.S.C. 41712 for any seller of scheduled air transportation within, to or from the United States, or of a tour (i.e., a combination of air transportation and ground or cruise accommodations), or tour component (e.g., a hotel stay) that includes scheduled air transportation within, to or from the United States, to increase the price of that air transportation, tour or tour component to a consumer, including but not limited to an increase in the price of the seat, an increase in the price for the carriage of passenger baggage, or an increase in an applicable fuel surcharge, after the air transportation has been purchased by the consumer, except in the case of an increase in a government-imposed tax or fee. A purchase is deemed to have occurred when the full amount agreed upon has been paid by the consumer.
+-------------------------------------------------------+
| Relevant FAQ |
| http://airconsumer.ost.dot.gov/rules/EAPP_2_FAQ.pdf |
+-------------------------------------------------------+
Does the prohibition on post-purchase price increases in section 399.88(a) apply in the situation where a carrier mistakenly offers an airfare due to a computer problem or human error and a consumer purchases the ticket at that fare before the carrier is able to fix the mistake?
Section 399.88(a) states that it is an unfair and deceptive practice for any seller of scheduled air transportation within, to, or from the United States, or of a tour or tour component that includes scheduled air transportation within, to, or from the United States, to increase the price of that air transportation to a consumer after the air transportation has been purchased by the consumer, except in the case of a government-imposed tax or fee and only if the passenger is advised of a possible increase before purchasing a ticket. A purchase occurs when the full amount agreed upon has been paid by the consumer. Therefore, if a consumer purchases a fare and that consumer receives confirmation (such as a confirmation email and/or the purchase appears on their credit card statement or online account summary) of their purchase, then the seller of air transportation cannot increase the price of that air transportation to that consumer, even when the fare is a “mistake.”
Tips for retrieving your ticket number:
- paste(right click copy link location first) following link into your web browser
- change XXXXXX next to COPNR= for your reservation number and LASTNAME next to LN= for you SURNAME
- go to the webpage address you have just created
https://www.united.com/web/en-US/app...NRCD=2/11/2015
Originally Posted by MatthewLAX
Originally Posted by MatthewLAX View Post
R E L A X
Breathe deep.
Congrats on all who got in.
Now comes the fun part.
1. Discovery - mistake fare is posted on FT. Novices frantically checks how much vacation time they have and if the dates of availability mesh with their schedules. Experienced FTers just book it and worry about contacting spouses or their boss later. Word spreads like wildfire.
2. Excitement - Tickets purchased, confirmation emails received and dates of travel shared with other FTers. Discussions of what to see and do and where to stay crop up in other threads. Novices contact source to change seats or inquire about upgrades, Seasoned FTers sit back and enjoy reading the discussion threads.
3. Stress Stage 1 - Concern over paper ticket delivery - Novices Frantically check otheFedEx website every few hours, constant monitoring of driveway for FedEx truck. Seasoned FT veterans sit back and relax.
4. Glee and happiness - Paper tickets in hand, vacation request submitted, spouses finally informed, hotel reservations made and bragging to friends and co-workers begins. Both novices and experts get very excited.
5. Stress Stage 2 - Rumors of fare not being honored, discussion threads about the airline and ticketing agency ensue. Rumors crop up like crabgrass at this stage. Many FTers begin to worry excessively about whether or not the trip will happen. Novices make non-refundable and financial committments to their trip. Seasoned FTers make mixed drinks (and maybe a sandwich) and is patient.
6. Reality Check - Accurate information is obtained - usually takes place a week to 10 days after mistake fare is published. Confirmed information from the source as to whether or not tickets will be honored.
7a. Pure Joy (Icelandair style- Fare is Honored) - Lots of happy people, FT threads on shared information regarding hotels, restaurants, tours, etc. Jealousy from others sets in. First "FT guinea pigs" embark, post confirmation threads that all is ok.
7b Hostile Feelings (Copa Airlines Style - fare is not honored) - Many angry and disappointed FTers. Refunds are issued. Novices have multiple discussion threads of lawsuits and hostile correspondence, FT pros mutter "c'est la vie" and look for the next fare mistake.
8a Success (Honored) - Trip Report thread becomes very active
R E L A X
Breathe deep.
Congrats on all who got in.
Now comes the fun part.
1. Discovery - mistake fare is posted on FT. Novices frantically checks how much vacation time they have and if the dates of availability mesh with their schedules. Experienced FTers just book it and worry about contacting spouses or their boss later. Word spreads like wildfire.
2. Excitement - Tickets purchased, confirmation emails received and dates of travel shared with other FTers. Discussions of what to see and do and where to stay crop up in other threads. Novices contact source to change seats or inquire about upgrades, Seasoned FTers sit back and enjoy reading the discussion threads.
3. Stress Stage 1 - Concern over paper ticket delivery - Novices Frantically check otheFedEx website every few hours, constant monitoring of driveway for FedEx truck. Seasoned FT veterans sit back and relax.
4. Glee and happiness - Paper tickets in hand, vacation request submitted, spouses finally informed, hotel reservations made and bragging to friends and co-workers begins. Both novices and experts get very excited.
5. Stress Stage 2 - Rumors of fare not being honored, discussion threads about the airline and ticketing agency ensue. Rumors crop up like crabgrass at this stage. Many FTers begin to worry excessively about whether or not the trip will happen. Novices make non-refundable and financial committments to their trip. Seasoned FTers make mixed drinks (and maybe a sandwich) and is patient.
6. Reality Check - Accurate information is obtained - usually takes place a week to 10 days after mistake fare is published. Confirmed information from the source as to whether or not tickets will be honored.
7a. Pure Joy (Icelandair style- Fare is Honored) - Lots of happy people, FT threads on shared information regarding hotels, restaurants, tours, etc. Jealousy from others sets in. First "FT guinea pigs" embark, post confirmation threads that all is ok.
7b Hostile Feelings (Copa Airlines Style - fare is not honored) - Many angry and disappointed FTers. Refunds are issued. Novices have multiple discussion threads of lawsuits and hostile correspondence, FT pros mutter "c'est la vie" and look for the next fare mistake.
8a Success (Honored) - Trip Report thread becomes very active
Freedom of Information Act Request
File #2015-147, Office of the Secretary of Transportation - Receipt acknowledged 3/13/15
http://www.dot.gov/individuals/foia/office-secretary-foia-information
Relevant excerpt from my request on 2/24/15. There no need for multiple requests for the same thing, though feel free to request more or different information obviously. I'll post any updates as I get them.
"Under the Freedom of Information Act, 5 U.S. C. subsection 552, I am requesting access to any and all records of correspondence, including electronic, between anyone working for, or on the behalf of, United Airlines and its subsidiaries, and with anyone working for, or on the behalf of, the Department of Transportation; specifically this would include only the date range beginning on February 11th, 2015 through and including February 24th, 2015.
In addition, I am requesting access to any and all internal records and correspondence in relation to coming to the decision made on February 23rd, 2015 regarding the Office of Aviation Enforcement and Proceedings Determination Regarding United Airlines Mistaken Fare, with the exception of any of the consumer submitted complaints via phone, email, website, or letter. Specifically, this would be any records beginning on February 11th, 2015 through and including February 24th, 2015."
[PREM FARE GONE] UA: NCL-EWR 600 DKK (mistaken fare) DOT ruled; see wiki for link
Feb 13, 2015, 12:38 am
#3182
Moderator: Mileage Run, United Airlines; FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The City/Honolulu
Programs: UA 3MM; Hyatt Glob*****; Hilton Diamond
Posts: 14,473
Third and Final Warning. See specifically 12.3. I have received an unprecedented number of RBPs today about repeated violations of this rule. The horse has been beaten enough. This thread is not moving forward. If this continues it will be closed until there is word from the DOT.
Before you post again in this thread, read and embrace the following TOS Rules. Here's a tip, if you think your post might be in violation of any of the following, it probably is:
12.1 Friendly, Respectful and Welcoming
FlyerTalk is a community and is intended to be a friendly, helpful and collegial place.
Please post in a friendly, respectful, welcoming manner. 'Snarky,' unfriendly posts will not be allowed. If you don't have something constructive to contribute to a thread, please do not post.
Unhelpful posts, such as "Do a search" or those that merely comment on the worthiness of others' posts or threads are neither friendly nor welcoming and will not be allowed. If you can't be helpful or contribute substantive content to a thread, please refrain from posting.
12.2 Avoid Getting Personal
If you have a difference of opinion with another member, challenge the idea — NOT the person. Getting personal with another member is not allowed. Personal attacks, insults, baiting and flaming will not be tolerated.
FlyerTalk is a diverse, multi-cultural community. Expressions of prejudice or discrimination in any form are not permitted (such as those concerning race, nationality, religious belief, gender, sexual orientation, age, disability, etc).
If another member gets personal with you, do not retaliate. Retaliation may well subject you to the same discipline. Instead, please use the 'Alert a moderator to this thread' button in the lower-left-hand-corner of each post, send a note explaining your concern to the moderator team, and leave it to them to handle. Please also see Rule 22 — When you believe someone has violated the rules.
12.3 Disruptive or repetitive posting
Posts that are inflammatory, inciting or unnecessarily provocative are not allowed.
Disrupting a forum by repetitively posting comments of the same general theme or 'piling-on' by posting merely to reinforce or bump a prior post of a disruptive nature are both examples of disruptive posting and not permitted. (emphasis added)
-----------------------
Pat89339
Moderator, Mileage Run Forum
Before you post again in this thread, read and embrace the following TOS Rules. Here's a tip, if you think your post might be in violation of any of the following, it probably is:
12.1 Friendly, Respectful and Welcoming
FlyerTalk is a community and is intended to be a friendly, helpful and collegial place.
Please post in a friendly, respectful, welcoming manner. 'Snarky,' unfriendly posts will not be allowed. If you don't have something constructive to contribute to a thread, please do not post.
Unhelpful posts, such as "Do a search" or those that merely comment on the worthiness of others' posts or threads are neither friendly nor welcoming and will not be allowed. If you can't be helpful or contribute substantive content to a thread, please refrain from posting.
12.2 Avoid Getting Personal
If you have a difference of opinion with another member, challenge the idea — NOT the person. Getting personal with another member is not allowed. Personal attacks, insults, baiting and flaming will not be tolerated.
FlyerTalk is a diverse, multi-cultural community. Expressions of prejudice or discrimination in any form are not permitted (such as those concerning race, nationality, religious belief, gender, sexual orientation, age, disability, etc).
If another member gets personal with you, do not retaliate. Retaliation may well subject you to the same discipline. Instead, please use the 'Alert a moderator to this thread' button in the lower-left-hand-corner of each post, send a note explaining your concern to the moderator team, and leave it to them to handle. Please also see Rule 22 — When you believe someone has violated the rules.
12.3 Disruptive or repetitive posting
Posts that are inflammatory, inciting or unnecessarily provocative are not allowed.
Disrupting a forum by repetitively posting comments of the same general theme or 'piling-on' by posting merely to reinforce or bump a prior post of a disruptive nature are both examples of disruptive posting and not permitted. (emphasis added)
-----------------------
Pat89339
Moderator, Mileage Run Forum
Feb 13, 2015, 12:39 am
#3185
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Between AMS and BRU
Posts: 8,852
They are not interested in that part of the transaction, and they shouldn't. It's a payment issue, and full and authorized payments were made.
So all this back-and-forth is really starting to wear thin, let's wait what the DOT says. That's one of the first steps, nobody needs an ethics discussion here.
Last edited by RTW1; Feb 13, 2015 at 12:44 am
Feb 13, 2015, 12:39 am
#3186
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: London
Programs: Hilton, IHG - BA, GA, LH, QR, SV, TK
Posts: 17,008
This childish squabble is getting tiresome!
It's odd when a lawyer is unable to grasp the crystal clear difference between nationality and country of residence.
Anyone, lay or lawyer, who has spent any time in Cairo, London, New York - any of the world's great cities - will have been surrounded by people carrying passports incongruent with the countries they are living in. It might seem different from Omaha, but there you are.
To infer someone's nationality from the country he or she lives in, is foolish. And quite sensibly, UA shows little interest in nationality at this stage of travel planning. In the final stages of reserving and paying you have the opportunity to provide details of your passport: but this is not obligatory.
Anyone, lay or lawyer, who has spent any time in Cairo, London, New York - any of the world's great cities - will have been surrounded by people carrying passports incongruent with the countries they are living in. It might seem different from Omaha, but there you are.
To infer someone's nationality from the country he or she lives in, is foolish. And quite sensibly, UA shows little interest in nationality at this stage of travel planning. In the final stages of reserving and paying you have the opportunity to provide details of your passport: but this is not obligatory.
Feb 13, 2015, 12:40 am
#3187
Suspended
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Watchlisted by the prejudiced, en route to purgatory
Programs: Just Say No to Fleecing and Blacklisting
Posts: 102,095
UA needed to lawyer itself up better internationally and/or invest some of its government-assisted income streams in more extensive internal controls technology that prevents this from hitting them and their customers.
UA choose to make the default billing country for these tickets list Denmark and bill mainly in DKK. This situation was UA being UA. It will be interesting to see if UA does any more systemic fixes than just merely take issue with its currency conversion approach.
Feb 13, 2015, 12:43 am
#3188
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 4,859
A certain companys lawyers are arguing just that now.
Feb 13, 2015, 12:45 am
#3189
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,310
Feb 13, 2015, 12:47 am
#3190
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Seat 2A
Programs: AA EXP LT GLD 1MM, BA GLD, NH/UA*G, Hyatt Dia, Marr Tit LT PLT, IHG Spire,HH Dia, MGM NOIR,Hertz PC
Posts: 10,571
They just call out the obvious. The opposite of 'mistaken' would be 'intentional' and even a monkey knows that it was not the intention to sell F Tickets for 100$.
Feb 13, 2015, 12:47 am
#3191
Suspended
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: The electrified part of North Carolina
Programs: UA GM, AA GM, DL GM
Posts: 4,157
Feb 13, 2015, 12:51 am
#3192
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: PRG
Programs: OW Sapphire, Herz Gold, Regus Businessworld Gold
Posts: 169
The process you described required you to specify the billing address country in the "Advanced Search" options.
Did you then proceed to make the purchase using a card that doesn't have a Danish billing address? If you did, you lied about the billing address country.
Did you then proceed to make the purchase using a card that doesn't have a Danish billing address? If you did, you lied about the billing address country.
If I would choosed Germany instead of Denmark and pay the same way 5000$, it would be also identified as a fraud or not? It would probably bother anyone so fundamentally ...Or, I cannot to buy on united.com online due to my billing country is not listed? The billing address is now IMO just a placeholder for the UA advocacy. In a free market is perhaps logical that I want to buy chosen products at the lowest price offered.
Feb 13, 2015, 12:52 am
#3193
Join Date: Feb 2015
Programs: united
Posts: 1,636
This childish squabble is getting tiresome!
It's odd when a lawyer is unable to grasp the crystal clear difference between nationality and country of residence.
Anyone, lay or lawyer, who has spent any time in Cairo, London, New York - any of the world's great cities - will have been surrounded by people carrying passports incongruent with the countries they are living in. It might seem different from Omaha, but there you are.
To infer someone's nationality from the country he or she lives in, is foolish. And quite sensibly, UA shows little interest in nationality at this stage of travel planning. In the final stages of reserving and paying you have the opportunity to provide details of your passport: but this is not obligatory.
It's odd when a lawyer is unable to grasp the crystal clear difference between nationality and country of residence.
Anyone, lay or lawyer, who has spent any time in Cairo, London, New York - any of the world's great cities - will have been surrounded by people carrying passports incongruent with the countries they are living in. It might seem different from Omaha, but there you are.
To infer someone's nationality from the country he or she lives in, is foolish. And quite sensibly, UA shows little interest in nationality at this stage of travel planning. In the final stages of reserving and paying you have the opportunity to provide details of your passport: but this is not obligatory.
Seriously, this is a BASIC concept in fraud law. Yes, United is entitled to "infer someone's nationality from the country he or she lives in", no matter how foolish you think it is. That fact may shock you, but in fact, MANY websites infer your nationality from your billing address, and certainly if you manipulate that information to circumvent something on a website, you have created legal grounds to rescind the transaction.
You may not like this. You may think it would be better if the law provided that the only way to get out of a contract is if the other party literally lied to you based on the narrowest definition of truth. But that is not the law. Telling the absolute truth but misleading the other party IS enough.
I am from EU, but my country is not listed among the list of billing address countries!!! What could I choosed? Thus, I choosed the country in whose currency I payd, and I supposed my payment would failed, if it does not meet the conditions set by United.
If I would choosed Germany instead of Denmark and pay the same way 5000$, it would be also identified as a fraud or not? It would probably bother anyone so fundamentally ...Or, I cannot to buy on united.com online due to my billing country is not listed? The billing address is now IMO just a placeholder for the UA advocacy. In a free market is perhaps logical that I want to buy chosen products at the lowest price offered.
If I would choosed Germany instead of Denmark and pay the same way 5000$, it would be also identified as a fraud or not? It would probably bother anyone so fundamentally ...Or, I cannot to buy on united.com online due to my billing country is not listed? The billing address is now IMO just a placeholder for the UA advocacy. In a free market is perhaps logical that I want to buy chosen products at the lowest price offered.
You must have missed the point that even UA doesn't use this as an argument to cancel the tickets, they just blame a 3rd party. And they have suspended all tickets, even those that actually did have a Danish billing address.
They are not interested in that part of the transaction, and they shouldn't. It's a payment issue, and full and authorized payments were made.
So all this back-and-forth is really starting to wear thin, let's wait what the DOT says. That's one of the first steps, nobody needs an ethics discussion here.
They are not interested in that part of the transaction, and they shouldn't. It's a payment issue, and full and authorized payments were made.
So all this back-and-forth is really starting to wear thin, let's wait what the DOT says. That's one of the first steps, nobody needs an ethics discussion here.
Last edited by Pat89339; Feb 13, 2015 at 12:59 am Reason: TOS violation Rule 14; consecutive posts
Feb 13, 2015, 12:58 am
#3194
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Atlanta, GA / San Francisco, CA
Programs: BA Gold, TK Elite Plus
Posts: 1,150
Seriously, this is a BASIC concept in fraud law. Yes, United is entitled to "infer someone's nationality from the country he or she lives in", no matter how foolish you think it is. That fact may shock you, but in fact, MANY websites infer your nationality from your billing address, and certainly if you manipulate that information to circumvent something on a website, you have created legal grounds to rescind the transaction.
So no, in Europe it is not fraud, it is a daily occurrence. If you want to operate in the European market, live with it or "GTHO"
Feb 13, 2015, 1:01 am
#3195
Join Date: Feb 2015
Programs: united
Posts: 1,636
But I would venture to say that it is highly unlikely that they will take that position. Rather, they will likely take the common sense position that misleading billing address information that has no effect on the price is not material, but misleading billing address information intentionally entered in order to manipulate a website into selling something worth many thousands of dollars for $100 is material.