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[PREM FARE GONE] UA: NCL-EWR 600 DKK (mistaken fare) DOT ruled; see wiki for link

Old Feb 11, 2015, 11:49 am
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Last edit by: drewguy
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Note: Please consider that with high probability, United is monitoring this thread, so please pay attention on what you post!

DOT Investigation UpdatesNews Media Updates:

-------

According to USA Today, Ben Mutzabaugh:
United is voiding the bookings of several thousand individuals who were attempting to take advantage of an error a third-party software provider made when it applied an incorrect currency exchange rate, despite United having properly filed its fares. Most of these bookings were for travel originating in the United Kingdom, and the level of bookings made with Danish Kroner as the local currency was significantly higher than normal during the limited period that customers made these bookings.
Note that United has also accidentally cancelled "legitimate" tickets paid for in USD, purchased in USD from LHR... Please check your other tickets if purchased today to ensure they were not unilaterally cancelled.

However, there is no chance at all that you can have your tickets re-instated if you complain to DOT on the basis of DOT rule § 399.88:
§ 399.88 Prohibition on post-purchase price increase.

(a) It is an unfair and deceptive practice within the meaning of 49 U.S.C. 41712 for any seller of scheduled air transportation within, to or from the United States, or of a tour (i.e., a combination of air transportation and ground or cruise accommodations), or tour component (e.g., a hotel stay) that includes scheduled air transportation within, to or from the United States, to increase the price of that air transportation, tour or tour component to a consumer, including but not limited to an increase in the price of the seat, an increase in the price for the carriage of passenger baggage, or an increase in an applicable fuel surcharge, after the air transportation has been purchased by the consumer, except in the case of an increase in a government-imposed tax or fee. A purchase is deemed to have occurred when the full amount agreed upon has been paid by the consumer.
Form for filing DOT complaint. File complaint as soon as your ticket is cancelled.

Link to PDF of enforcement bodies for European customers affected. File complaint as soon as your ticket is cancelled.


Tips for DOT Complaint:
  • File on DOT for every ticket number affected.
  • If you have one reservation with four people traveling (four tickets) file 4 DOT complaints, one per ticket.
  • If you have separate reservations, file a DOT complaint for each.
  • The DOT complaint website may take several minutes to load, depending on demand.
  • When you go to upload a file, be careful as it will reset all your radio buttons. So, if you want a copy of the complaint, make sure you double check that "Yes" is still selected before submitting, especially if you upload a file.

Template For Complaint:
United has unilaterally cancelled my ticket without my consent.

Facts:
1. The ticket was ticketed (had a ticket number).
2. I received a confirmation number, ticket number, and emails stating both
3. The ticket was paid for and my credit card charged.

United must reinstate the ticket within its original cabin. This trip is for travel TO the United States.

At no time during the booking process was any other fare than the Danish Krone equivalent displayed. As a reasonable, prudent consumer, I believed I was paying the price displayed to me on the website. United never sent or displayed the equivalent fare in any other currency.

Trip Details
Ticket #: 016XXXXXXXXXX
PNR: XXXXXX
Routing: LHR-EWR-LAX-HNL

Attachments: Attached is a document showing the ticket, routing, and providing proof that the reservation was ticketed.

Filename: Cancelled - UA Reservation - LHR-EWR-LAX-HNL - XXXXXX - 016XXXXXXXXXX.pdf

+-------------------------------------------------------+
| Relevant Law |
| http://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/399.88 |
+-------------------------------------------------------+
§ 399.88 Prohibition on post-purchase price increase.

(a) It is an unfair and deceptive practice within the meaning of 49 U.S.C. 41712 for any seller of scheduled air transportation within, to or from the United States, or of a tour (i.e., a combination of air transportation and ground or cruise accommodations), or tour component (e.g., a hotel stay) that includes scheduled air transportation within, to or from the United States, to increase the price of that air transportation, tour or tour component to a consumer, including but not limited to an increase in the price of the seat, an increase in the price for the carriage of passenger baggage, or an increase in an applicable fuel surcharge, after the air transportation has been purchased by the consumer, except in the case of an increase in a government-imposed tax or fee. A purchase is deemed to have occurred when the full amount agreed upon has been paid by the consumer.

+-------------------------------------------------------+
| Relevant FAQ |
| http://airconsumer.ost.dot.gov/rules/EAPP_2_FAQ.pdf |
+-------------------------------------------------------+
Does the prohibition on post-purchase price increases in section 399.88(a) apply in the situation where a carrier mistakenly offers an airfare due to a computer problem or human error and a consumer purchases the ticket at that fare before the carrier is able to fix the mistake?

Section 399.88(a) states that it is an unfair and deceptive practice for any seller of scheduled air transportation within, to, or from the United States, or of a tour or tour component that includes scheduled air transportation within, to, or from the United States, to increase the price of that air transportation to a consumer after the air transportation has been purchased by the consumer, except in the case of a government-imposed tax or fee and only if the passenger is advised of a possible increase before purchasing a ticket. A purchase occurs when the full amount agreed upon has been paid by the consumer. Therefore, if a consumer purchases a fare and that consumer receives confirmation (such as a confirmation email and/or the purchase appears on their credit card statement or online account summary) of their purchase, then the seller of air transportation cannot increase the price of that air transportation to that consumer, even when the fare is a “mistake.”
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Tips for retrieving your ticket number:
  1. paste(right click copy link location first) following link into your web browser
  2. change XXXXXX next to COPNR= for your reservation number and LASTNAME next to LN= for you SURNAME
  3. go to the webpage address you have just created

https://www.united.com/web/en-US/app...NRCD=2/11/2015


Originally Posted by MatthewLAX
Originally Posted by MatthewLAX View Post
R E L A X

Breathe deep.

Congrats on all who got in.

Now comes the fun part.

1. Discovery - mistake fare is posted on FT. Novices frantically checks how much vacation time they have and if the dates of availability mesh with their schedules. Experienced FTers just book it and worry about contacting spouses or their boss later. Word spreads like wildfire.

2. Excitement - Tickets purchased, confirmation emails received and dates of travel shared with other FTers. Discussions of what to see and do and where to stay crop up in other threads. Novices contact source to change seats or inquire about upgrades, Seasoned FTers sit back and enjoy reading the discussion threads.

3. Stress Stage 1 - Concern over paper ticket delivery - Novices Frantically check otheFedEx website every few hours, constant monitoring of driveway for FedEx truck. Seasoned FT veterans sit back and relax.

4. Glee and happiness - Paper tickets in hand, vacation request submitted, spouses finally informed, hotel reservations made and bragging to friends and co-workers begins. Both novices and experts get very excited.

5. Stress Stage 2 - Rumors of fare not being honored, discussion threads about the airline and ticketing agency ensue. Rumors crop up like crabgrass at this stage. Many FTers begin to worry excessively about whether or not the trip will happen. Novices make non-refundable and financial committments to their trip. Seasoned FTers make mixed drinks (and maybe a sandwich) and is patient.

6. Reality Check - Accurate information is obtained - usually takes place a week to 10 days after mistake fare is published. Confirmed information from the source as to whether or not tickets will be honored.

7a. Pure Joy (Icelandair style- Fare is Honored) - Lots of happy people, FT threads on shared information regarding hotels, restaurants, tours, etc. Jealousy from others sets in. First "FT guinea pigs" embark, post confirmation threads that all is ok.


7b Hostile Feelings (Copa Airlines Style - fare is not honored) - Many angry and disappointed FTers. Refunds are issued. Novices have multiple discussion threads of lawsuits and hostile correspondence, FT pros mutter "c'est la vie" and look for the next fare mistake.

8a Success (Honored) - Trip Report thread becomes very active


Freedom of Information Act Request
File #2015-147, Office of the Secretary of Transportation - Receipt acknowledged 3/13/15

http://www.dot.gov/individuals/foia/office-secretary-foia-information

Relevant excerpt from my request on 2/24/15. There no need for multiple requests for the same thing, though feel free to request more or different information obviously. I'll post any updates as I get them.

"Under the Freedom of Information Act, 5 U.S. C. subsection 552, I am requesting access to any and all records of correspondence, including electronic, between anyone working for, or on the behalf of, United Airlines and its subsidiaries, and with anyone working for, or on the behalf of, the Department of Transportation; specifically this would include only the date range beginning on February 11th, 2015 through and including February 24th, 2015.

In addition, I am requesting access to any and all internal records and correspondence in relation to coming to the decision made on February 23rd, 2015 regarding the Office of Aviation Enforcement and Proceedings Determination Regarding United Airlines Mistaken Fare, with the exception of any of the consumer submitted complaints via phone, email, website, or letter. Specifically, this would be any records beginning on February 11th, 2015 through and including February 24th, 2015."
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[PREM FARE GONE] UA: NCL-EWR 600 DKK (mistaken fare) DOT ruled; see wiki for link

Old Feb 12, 2015, 7:06 pm
  #3091  
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
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Posts: 1,636
Originally Posted by trouble747
Good lord, my very simple point is that location does not equal "nationality." This is not about nationality in any way, shape, or form. No super technical legal arguments needed, I promise.

When do we graduate from law school, anyway?
USC.

"Location does not equal nationality" may prove the statement is not false. But it does not prove that the statement is not misleading, because a misleading statement is one that is literally true but nonetheless misleads.
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Old Feb 12, 2015, 7:07 pm
  #3092  
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Reading the posts on page 1 and 2 of this thread, it is obvious that in order to take advantage of the glitch, credit card users who do not have a credit card with a Danish billing address would have to mislead United by stating that the billing address is in Denmark.
Some people did not (and probably still don't) see any issues with such practice. If they were called to testify in court against UA, how would they explain the fact that they wouldn't have been able to take advantage of the glitch without knowingly providing incorrect information?

Originally Posted by biostatistician
The funniest thing about this to me is that the fare made it through (I guess that goes for most mistake fares), that's just terrible, terrible data management. I work on a lot of databases and always, where appropriate, have data quality checks to minimize gross errors. Granted, it's not possible to eliminate them completely, but errors that are orders of magnitude should be caught prior to being public. Sloppy!
Business as usual at UA

Last edited by Pat89339; Feb 13, 2015 at 12:14 am Reason: TOS 14; consecutive posts
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Old Feb 12, 2015, 7:16 pm
  #3093  
 
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Originally Posted by UA1K_no_more
Reading the posts on page 1 and 2 of this thread, it is obvious that in order to take advantage of the glitch, credit card users who do not have a credit card with a Danish billing address would have to mislead United by stating that the billing address is in Denmark.
Some people did not (and probably still don't) see any issues with such practice. If they were called to testify in court against UA, how would they explain the fact that they didn't provide correct information?
It is not obvious. When I did it here was my process:

1. Advance search.
2. Change Point of sale to denmark
3. Select flights
4. Change Passport information from Denmark (auto fill) back to USA
5. Run CC on file.
6. Go crazy at 5am on a conference call and hope you're on mute because it worked!

When you select Denmark as your point of sale, it autofills your info as Denmark. I changed it back. UA tried to force me to lie to them, and I said no way!

This thread is becoming very redundant. I'm sorry, I really enjoyed the first 1,000 posts, but I think we may need to stop this until we get action from the DOT.
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Old Feb 12, 2015, 7:20 pm
  #3094  
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: BTS
Posts: 611
Originally Posted by UA1K_no_more
Reading the posts on page 1 and 2 of this thread, it is obvious that in order to take advantage of the glitch, credit card users who do not have a credit card with a Danish billing address would have to mislead United by stating that the billing address is in Denmark.
Some people did not (and probably still don't) see any issues with such practice. If they were called to testify in court against UA, how would they explain the fact that they didn't provide correct information?
1) The billing country is set by default when you change to the Danish website. If UA didn't want ppl from outside ofthe EU to do that, there are several IT solutions to prevent it.

2) The billing country is fairly easy to overlook and just proceed to book

3) My secretary booked the ticket for me and she made a mistake of not changing the billing country field because it was already set (and I had Denmark set for my country preference because I just came back after two weeks there)... a 3rd party made a mistake ... I'm sorry!
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Old Feb 12, 2015, 7:22 pm
  #3095  
 
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Originally Posted by dilanesp
USC.

"Location does not equal nationality" may prove the statement is not false. But it does not prove that the statement is not misleading, because a misleading statement is one that is literally true but nonetheless misleads.
I'm still lost. Are you claiming that, when United asks for 'location or billing address,' they are ACTUALLY asking for your "nationality"? And thus, it would be "misleading" for, say, a permanent resident of the UK, accessing the website from the UK (but of American nationality), to purchase from the UK site? Because although the site asks you to choose the country site matching your location or billing location, they REALLY want you to pick your country of nationality, regardless of where you're buying from?

I doubt that's true. I doubt that's true because the United website does not offer a choice of every possible nationality. The purchasers of the mistake fare may have had to "mislead" (to accept your use of the word as true) United as to their location or billing address. No need to mislead as to nationality, because that isn't the question the website asks.

(And I asked "when," assuming it was a date in the future. Details!)
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Old Feb 12, 2015, 7:29 pm
  #3096  
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 1
Perhaps discussed elsewhere, but my understanding is contractual fraud must generally involve intentional misrepresentation as to a "material" term of the contract or agreement. I must admit I have a difficult time concluding someone's credit card billing country (provided they decided to even pay United that way for their fare) is material to the contract or agreement. If it were material to United, I would imagine United would implement basic safeguards during the booking process to confirm such a "critical" piece of decision making information before ticketing.
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Old Feb 12, 2015, 7:30 pm
  #3097  
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Originally Posted by dlandz
Deceived into what? Does their Denmark website require that the purchaser lives in Denmark? Please direct me to any requirement stated as such on their website or any other relevent documentation
Go to their website to make a reservation, click on "Advanced Search", go to the bottom to change your country and it very, very specifically states that to do this you must have a billing address in the country you selected.

Originally Posted by trouble747
Just a little, considering most fraud statutes would also require that the assertion be material. UA didn't intend to offer a discount to anyone whatsoever. It was a means to make a purchase in a different currency, which as best I can tell is not prohibited by UA (and in any event would likely still not be illegal).
It is material because it dramatically altered the price.

Originally Posted by UA1K_no_more
Reading the posts on page 1 and 2 of this thread, it is obvious that in order to take advantage of the glitch, credit card users who do not have a credit card with a Danish billing address would have to mislead United by stating that the billing address is in Denmark.
Some people did not (and probably still don't) see any issues with such practice. If they were called to testify in court against UA, how would they explain the fact that they wouldn't have been able to take advantage of the glitch without knowingly providing incorrect information?
They wouldn't. You're right.

And while several posters are right that it is very unlikely that criminal action is going to happen, if you commit a fraud by misrepresentation in order to enrich yourself by thousands of dollars, the possibility exists. And if United went to the DOJ and said "We have complete evidence of thousands of people trying to steal millions of dollars" there is a possibility the DOJ would act.

Not much of a possibility, granted. But it's not zero.

More importantly, as one of my posts said earlier, in order for a ticket buyer to prevail in a lawsuit he would have to testify in court that he committed a criminal act. No lawyer is going to let him do that.
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Old Feb 12, 2015, 7:31 pm
  #3098  
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Originally Posted by Tblack15
It is not obvious. When I did it here was my process:

1. Advance search.
2. Change Point of sale to denmark
3. Select flights
4. Change Passport information from Denmark (auto fill) back to USA
5. Run CC on file.
6. Go crazy at 5am on a conference call and hope you're on mute because it worked!
When you click "Advanced Search" to change point of sale, the option says "Billing Address Country". Is that not obvious?
Going through the process you describe required you to set Denmark as the billing address country in order to take advantage of the glitch. Did you use a card with a Danish billing address?

When you say "run CC on file", are you saying that you were signed into your MP account (with a US billing address) before or during making the reservation?
I tried recreating your sequence on the Dutch point of sale site (the Danish one is still down...), and got an error message as soon as I provided my US MP account details. As noted in the first posts in the thread, you'd need to be signed out in order to make the reservation.
If I go through the reservation without being signed in, I am asked to provide the credit card details, and the billing address country is pre-filled to be the country I chose as the "Billing Address Country".
If you weren't signed in, what card did you have "on file"?

Last edited by UA1K_no_more; Feb 12, 2015 at 7:44 pm
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Old Feb 12, 2015, 7:33 pm
  #3099  
 
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Originally Posted by trouble747
I'm still lost. Are you claiming that, when United asks for 'location or billing address,' they are ACTUALLY asking for your "nationality"? And thus, it would be "misleading" for, say, a permanent resident of the UK, accessing the website from the UK (but of American nationality), to purchase from the UK site? Because although the site asks you to choose the country site matching your location or billing location, they REALLY want you to pick your country of nationality, regardless of where you're buying from?

I doubt that's true. I doubt that's true because the United website does not offer a choice of every possible nationality. The purchasers of the mistake fare may have had to "mislead" (to accept your use of the word as true) United as to their location or billing address. No need to mislead as to nationality, because that isn't the question the website asks.

(And I asked "when," assuming it was a date in the future. Details!)
You are assuming that the only material information to the transaction is the information that United directly asks for, and the only situation where there can be fraud is where that information is literally false.

Neither of those statements are true.

Again, assume a situation where a website's business is legal in some jurisdictions and illegal in others (say, online poker). Their credit card system is programmed to only accept payments from the jurisdictions where it is legal. Someone who lives in a jurisdiction where it is illegal knowingly enters a billing address in a legal jurisdiction with the ntent to fool the website into treating her as a resident in a legal jurisdiction. The website finds out and seeks rescission. Do they win? I would say they have a very strong case.

And it would not turn on the website failing to ask the precisely correct question. It's enough that the a reasonable consumer would have understood that the credit card information would mislead the operators of the website.
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Old Feb 12, 2015, 7:33 pm
  #3100  
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 43
Originally Posted by sonofzeus
Wonder how much UAL is paying these "advocates"?
"Advocates" of UA? That's a stretch. It's another hated, low-rated airline most people only fly because price or availability gives them little choice. However, it's easy to jump on the pro-UA bandwagon, at least for the moment, if only to contradict all the people shamelessly whining why they can't have a diamond for the cost of a rhinestone. And, no, UA is definitely no diamond. As the old saying goes, don't expect to get something for (in this case, almost) nothing.
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Old Feb 12, 2015, 7:38 pm
  #3101  
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 1,012
Originally Posted by Tchiowa
It is material because it dramatically altered the price.
That would assume that, but for United believing you were actually purchasing from Denmark, they would not have offered the mistake fare. In reality, United had no intention of offering the fare to anyone, regardless of location. It's not material. It may have been a website manipulation that violates United's terms of service, but it ain't fraud.

More importantly, as one of my posts said earlier, in order for a ticket buyer to prevail in a lawsuit he would have to testify in court that he committed a criminal act. No lawyer is going to let him do that.
They you go tossing around the word "criminal" again! Do you have a particular statute in mind?
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Old Feb 12, 2015, 7:40 pm
  #3102  
 
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Originally Posted by dilanesp
To be perfectly clear-- I said this upthread, but I am sure that the EU has a procedure that you may invoke if the antidiscrimination rule is broken, and I am sure that procedure is not "mislead the seller as to your nationality so that you can buy the ticket". Nowhere in EU consumer protection law will you find a right to declare yourself a Dane when you are not one.
Except you are not declaring yourself as a Dane by selecting Denmark, you are saying I want to see and be billed in DKK. Nowhere does it as or state that you either must reside or be a citizen of Denmark to use the Danish site. You are just making stuff up to suit your argument.
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Old Feb 12, 2015, 7:41 pm
  #3103  
 
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Originally Posted by Tchiowa
Go to their website to make a reservation, click on "Advanced Search", go to the bottom to change your country and it very, very specifically states that to do this you must have a billing address in the country you selected.



It is material because it dramatically altered the price.



They wouldn't. You're right.

And while several posters are right that it is very unlikely that criminal action is going to happen, if you commit a fraud by misrepresentation in order to enrich yourself by thousands of dollars, the possibility exists. And if United went to the DOJ and said "We have complete evidence of thousands of people trying to steal millions of dollars" there is a possibility the DOJ would act.

Not much of a possibility, granted. But it's not zero.

More importantly, as one of my posts said earlier, in order for a ticket buyer to prevail in a lawsuit he would have to testify in court that he committed a criminal act. No lawyer is going to let him do that.
Nice post. Loads of evidence available for the DOJ on Flyer Talk

BTW, Great train wreck here.
This thread has provided much amusement.
Thanks
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Old Feb 12, 2015, 7:49 pm
  #3104  
 
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Originally Posted by UA1K_no_more
When you say "run CC on file", are you saying that you were signed into your MP account (with a US billing address) before or during making the reservation?
I tried recreating that sequence on the Dutch point of sale site, and got an error message as soon as I provided my account details. As noted in the first posts in the thread, you need to be signed out in order to make the reservation.
If I go through the reservation without being signed in, I am asked to provide the credit card details, including the billing address country.

If you weren't signed in, what card did you have "on file"?
Ah yes, the ole Dutch UA website test trick... I was signed into my account, and like I said, I did not use a saved traveler, I changed my passport nationality, and I used my AmEx on file to book this for a friend as well as myself. At first I tried my Visa and it didn't go through.. so I went back for the AmEx and it flew through like Usain Bolt.

Listen, relax. We all know these aren't going to be honored.. Maybe we should have separate threads for people that did book vs. people that didn't? I feel like I'm seeing a trend here of people just hating on us "bookers"...

Yes, I booked one.. no I don't feel guilty, nor do I feel like I lied, nor do I feel bad at all.
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Old Feb 12, 2015, 7:50 pm
  #3105  
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
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Originally Posted by dilanesp
And it would not turn on the website failing to ask the precisely correct question. It's enough that the a reasonable consumer would have understood that the credit card information would mislead the operators of the website.
Friend, I'm not claiming the website asks the wrong question. I'm saying you mistakenly referred to "nationality" when the question doesn't turn on a misrepresentation of nationality, but rather a misrepresentation of physical location or location of billing address. Buyers from the U.S. either misrepresented they were purchasing from Denmark or misrepresented that the billing address of their credit card is in Denmark, but there was no need to misrepresent their nationality, because that isn't a factor (indeed, if someone from Denmark was living in the U.S. and being billed in the U.S., under United's website terms they should choose the U.S. site and not Denmark's).

I'm not making a legal argument. I'm not making ANY argument whatsoever in defense of a purchaser of the fare. Law is about details. You were going on and on about 'how the law works' and ripping people apart 'on the stand,' so I thought I'd throw in a little jab regarding your lack of attention to one particular detail. That's it.
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