Feb 11, 2015, 11:49 am
Last edit by: drewguy
If you've never gone through this process read this before posting!
Note: Please consider that with high probability, United is monitoring this thread, so please pay attention on what you post!
DOT Investigation Updates
-------
According to USA Today, Ben Mutzabaugh:
Note that United has also accidentally cancelled "legitimate" tickets paid for in USD, purchased in USD from LHR... Please check your other tickets if purchased today to ensure they were not unilaterally cancelled.
However, there is no chance at all that you can have your tickets re-instated if you complain to DOT on the basis of DOT rule § 399.88:
Form for filing DOT complaint. File complaint as soon as your ticket is cancelled.
Link to PDF of enforcement bodies for European customers affected. File complaint as soon as your ticket is cancelled.
Tips for DOT Complaint:
Template For Complaint:
-----
Tips for retrieving your ticket number:
https://www.united.com/web/en-US/app...NRCD=2/11/2015
Freedom of Information Act Request
File #2015-147, Office of the Secretary of Transportation - Receipt acknowledged 3/13/15
http://www.dot.gov/individuals/foia/office-secretary-foia-information
Relevant excerpt from my request on 2/24/15. There no need for multiple requests for the same thing, though feel free to request more or different information obviously. I'll post any updates as I get them.
"Under the Freedom of Information Act, 5 U.S. C. subsection 552, I am requesting access to any and all records of correspondence, including electronic, between anyone working for, or on the behalf of, United Airlines and its subsidiaries, and with anyone working for, or on the behalf of, the Department of Transportation; specifically this would include only the date range beginning on February 11th, 2015 through and including February 24th, 2015.
In addition, I am requesting access to any and all internal records and correspondence in relation to coming to the decision made on February 23rd, 2015 regarding the Office of Aviation Enforcement and Proceedings Determination Regarding United Airlines Mistaken Fare, with the exception of any of the consumer submitted complaints via phone, email, website, or letter. Specifically, this would be any records beginning on February 11th, 2015 through and including February 24th, 2015."
Note: Please consider that with high probability, United is monitoring this thread, so please pay attention on what you post!
DOT Investigation Updates
- 02/23/15: DOT says UA does not have to honor the fare; link to DOT's full explanation (pdf)
- 02/12/15: DOT Statement
- 02/12/15: fox news mentions DOT investigation and mention update by 5:00 pm ET -- posted by xSTRIKEx6864
- 02/12/15: Fox news clip -- posted by FlyingLasse
- 02/12/15: Another clip on fox news interviewing the pointsguy -- posted by FlyingLasse
- 02/12/15: Person in charge at the dot is Alex Taday (don't bombard him with email - or we will all regret it) -- posted by sonofzeus
- 02/12/15: Fox News update: UA honoring fares will depends on complaints made at the DOT.... -- posted by synd
-------
According to USA Today, Ben Mutzabaugh:
United is voiding the bookings of several thousand individuals who were attempting to take advantage of an error a third-party software provider made when it applied an incorrect currency exchange rate, despite United having properly filed its fares. Most of these bookings were for travel originating in the United Kingdom, and the level of bookings made with Danish Kroner as the local currency was significantly higher than normal during the limited period that customers made these bookings.
However, there is no chance at all that you can have your tickets re-instated if you complain to DOT on the basis of DOT rule § 399.88:
§ 399.88 Prohibition on post-purchase price increase.
(a) It is an unfair and deceptive practice within the meaning of 49 U.S.C. 41712 for any seller of scheduled air transportation within, to or from the United States, or of a tour (i.e., a combination of air transportation and ground or cruise accommodations), or tour component (e.g., a hotel stay) that includes scheduled air transportation within, to or from the United States, to increase the price of that air transportation, tour or tour component to a consumer, including but not limited to an increase in the price of the seat, an increase in the price for the carriage of passenger baggage, or an increase in an applicable fuel surcharge, after the air transportation has been purchased by the consumer, except in the case of an increase in a government-imposed tax or fee. A purchase is deemed to have occurred when the full amount agreed upon has been paid by the consumer.
(a) It is an unfair and deceptive practice within the meaning of 49 U.S.C. 41712 for any seller of scheduled air transportation within, to or from the United States, or of a tour (i.e., a combination of air transportation and ground or cruise accommodations), or tour component (e.g., a hotel stay) that includes scheduled air transportation within, to or from the United States, to increase the price of that air transportation, tour or tour component to a consumer, including but not limited to an increase in the price of the seat, an increase in the price for the carriage of passenger baggage, or an increase in an applicable fuel surcharge, after the air transportation has been purchased by the consumer, except in the case of an increase in a government-imposed tax or fee. A purchase is deemed to have occurred when the full amount agreed upon has been paid by the consumer.
Link to PDF of enforcement bodies for European customers affected. File complaint as soon as your ticket is cancelled.
Tips for DOT Complaint:
- File on DOT for every ticket number affected.
- If you have one reservation with four people traveling (four tickets) file 4 DOT complaints, one per ticket.
- If you have separate reservations, file a DOT complaint for each.
- The DOT complaint website may take several minutes to load, depending on demand.
- When you go to upload a file, be careful as it will reset all your radio buttons. So, if you want a copy of the complaint, make sure you double check that "Yes" is still selected before submitting, especially if you upload a file.
Template For Complaint:
United has unilaterally cancelled my ticket without my consent.
Facts:
1. The ticket was ticketed (had a ticket number).
2. I received a confirmation number, ticket number, and emails stating both
3. The ticket was paid for and my credit card charged.
United must reinstate the ticket within its original cabin. This trip is for travel TO the United States.
At no time during the booking process was any other fare than the Danish Krone equivalent displayed. As a reasonable, prudent consumer, I believed I was paying the price displayed to me on the website. United never sent or displayed the equivalent fare in any other currency.
Trip Details
Ticket #: 016XXXXXXXXXX
PNR: XXXXXX
Routing: LHR-EWR-LAX-HNL
Attachments: Attached is a document showing the ticket, routing, and providing proof that the reservation was ticketed.
Filename: Cancelled - UA Reservation - LHR-EWR-LAX-HNL - XXXXXX - 016XXXXXXXXXX.pdf
+-------------------------------------------------------+
| Relevant Law |
| http://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/399.88 |
+-------------------------------------------------------+
§ 399.88 Prohibition on post-purchase price increase.
(a) It is an unfair and deceptive practice within the meaning of 49 U.S.C. 41712 for any seller of scheduled air transportation within, to or from the United States, or of a tour (i.e., a combination of air transportation and ground or cruise accommodations), or tour component (e.g., a hotel stay) that includes scheduled air transportation within, to or from the United States, to increase the price of that air transportation, tour or tour component to a consumer, including but not limited to an increase in the price of the seat, an increase in the price for the carriage of passenger baggage, or an increase in an applicable fuel surcharge, after the air transportation has been purchased by the consumer, except in the case of an increase in a government-imposed tax or fee. A purchase is deemed to have occurred when the full amount agreed upon has been paid by the consumer.
+-------------------------------------------------------+
| Relevant FAQ |
| http://airconsumer.ost.dot.gov/rules/EAPP_2_FAQ.pdf |
+-------------------------------------------------------+
Does the prohibition on post-purchase price increases in section 399.88(a) apply in the situation where a carrier mistakenly offers an airfare due to a computer problem or human error and a consumer purchases the ticket at that fare before the carrier is able to fix the mistake?
Section 399.88(a) states that it is an unfair and deceptive practice for any seller of scheduled air transportation within, to, or from the United States, or of a tour or tour component that includes scheduled air transportation within, to, or from the United States, to increase the price of that air transportation to a consumer after the air transportation has been purchased by the consumer, except in the case of a government-imposed tax or fee and only if the passenger is advised of a possible increase before purchasing a ticket. A purchase occurs when the full amount agreed upon has been paid by the consumer. Therefore, if a consumer purchases a fare and that consumer receives confirmation (such as a confirmation email and/or the purchase appears on their credit card statement or online account summary) of their purchase, then the seller of air transportation cannot increase the price of that air transportation to that consumer, even when the fare is a “mistake.”
Facts:
1. The ticket was ticketed (had a ticket number).
2. I received a confirmation number, ticket number, and emails stating both
3. The ticket was paid for and my credit card charged.
United must reinstate the ticket within its original cabin. This trip is for travel TO the United States.
At no time during the booking process was any other fare than the Danish Krone equivalent displayed. As a reasonable, prudent consumer, I believed I was paying the price displayed to me on the website. United never sent or displayed the equivalent fare in any other currency.
Trip Details
Ticket #: 016XXXXXXXXXX
PNR: XXXXXX
Routing: LHR-EWR-LAX-HNL
Attachments: Attached is a document showing the ticket, routing, and providing proof that the reservation was ticketed.
Filename: Cancelled - UA Reservation - LHR-EWR-LAX-HNL - XXXXXX - 016XXXXXXXXXX.pdf
+-------------------------------------------------------+
| Relevant Law |
| http://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/399.88 |
+-------------------------------------------------------+
§ 399.88 Prohibition on post-purchase price increase.
(a) It is an unfair and deceptive practice within the meaning of 49 U.S.C. 41712 for any seller of scheduled air transportation within, to or from the United States, or of a tour (i.e., a combination of air transportation and ground or cruise accommodations), or tour component (e.g., a hotel stay) that includes scheduled air transportation within, to or from the United States, to increase the price of that air transportation, tour or tour component to a consumer, including but not limited to an increase in the price of the seat, an increase in the price for the carriage of passenger baggage, or an increase in an applicable fuel surcharge, after the air transportation has been purchased by the consumer, except in the case of an increase in a government-imposed tax or fee. A purchase is deemed to have occurred when the full amount agreed upon has been paid by the consumer.
+-------------------------------------------------------+
| Relevant FAQ |
| http://airconsumer.ost.dot.gov/rules/EAPP_2_FAQ.pdf |
+-------------------------------------------------------+
Does the prohibition on post-purchase price increases in section 399.88(a) apply in the situation where a carrier mistakenly offers an airfare due to a computer problem or human error and a consumer purchases the ticket at that fare before the carrier is able to fix the mistake?
Section 399.88(a) states that it is an unfair and deceptive practice for any seller of scheduled air transportation within, to, or from the United States, or of a tour or tour component that includes scheduled air transportation within, to, or from the United States, to increase the price of that air transportation to a consumer after the air transportation has been purchased by the consumer, except in the case of a government-imposed tax or fee and only if the passenger is advised of a possible increase before purchasing a ticket. A purchase occurs when the full amount agreed upon has been paid by the consumer. Therefore, if a consumer purchases a fare and that consumer receives confirmation (such as a confirmation email and/or the purchase appears on their credit card statement or online account summary) of their purchase, then the seller of air transportation cannot increase the price of that air transportation to that consumer, even when the fare is a “mistake.”
Tips for retrieving your ticket number:
- paste(right click copy link location first) following link into your web browser
- change XXXXXX next to COPNR= for your reservation number and LASTNAME next to LN= for you SURNAME
- go to the webpage address you have just created
https://www.united.com/web/en-US/app...NRCD=2/11/2015
Originally Posted by MatthewLAX
Originally Posted by MatthewLAX View Post
R E L A X
Breathe deep.
Congrats on all who got in.
Now comes the fun part.
1. Discovery - mistake fare is posted on FT. Novices frantically checks how much vacation time they have and if the dates of availability mesh with their schedules. Experienced FTers just book it and worry about contacting spouses or their boss later. Word spreads like wildfire.
2. Excitement - Tickets purchased, confirmation emails received and dates of travel shared with other FTers. Discussions of what to see and do and where to stay crop up in other threads. Novices contact source to change seats or inquire about upgrades, Seasoned FTers sit back and enjoy reading the discussion threads.
3. Stress Stage 1 - Concern over paper ticket delivery - Novices Frantically check otheFedEx website every few hours, constant monitoring of driveway for FedEx truck. Seasoned FT veterans sit back and relax.
4. Glee and happiness - Paper tickets in hand, vacation request submitted, spouses finally informed, hotel reservations made and bragging to friends and co-workers begins. Both novices and experts get very excited.
5. Stress Stage 2 - Rumors of fare not being honored, discussion threads about the airline and ticketing agency ensue. Rumors crop up like crabgrass at this stage. Many FTers begin to worry excessively about whether or not the trip will happen. Novices make non-refundable and financial committments to their trip. Seasoned FTers make mixed drinks (and maybe a sandwich) and is patient.
6. Reality Check - Accurate information is obtained - usually takes place a week to 10 days after mistake fare is published. Confirmed information from the source as to whether or not tickets will be honored.
7a. Pure Joy (Icelandair style- Fare is Honored) - Lots of happy people, FT threads on shared information regarding hotels, restaurants, tours, etc. Jealousy from others sets in. First "FT guinea pigs" embark, post confirmation threads that all is ok.
7b Hostile Feelings (Copa Airlines Style - fare is not honored) - Many angry and disappointed FTers. Refunds are issued. Novices have multiple discussion threads of lawsuits and hostile correspondence, FT pros mutter "c'est la vie" and look for the next fare mistake.
8a Success (Honored) - Trip Report thread becomes very active
R E L A X
Breathe deep.
Congrats on all who got in.
Now comes the fun part.
1. Discovery - mistake fare is posted on FT. Novices frantically checks how much vacation time they have and if the dates of availability mesh with their schedules. Experienced FTers just book it and worry about contacting spouses or their boss later. Word spreads like wildfire.
2. Excitement - Tickets purchased, confirmation emails received and dates of travel shared with other FTers. Discussions of what to see and do and where to stay crop up in other threads. Novices contact source to change seats or inquire about upgrades, Seasoned FTers sit back and enjoy reading the discussion threads.
3. Stress Stage 1 - Concern over paper ticket delivery - Novices Frantically check otheFedEx website every few hours, constant monitoring of driveway for FedEx truck. Seasoned FT veterans sit back and relax.
4. Glee and happiness - Paper tickets in hand, vacation request submitted, spouses finally informed, hotel reservations made and bragging to friends and co-workers begins. Both novices and experts get very excited.
5. Stress Stage 2 - Rumors of fare not being honored, discussion threads about the airline and ticketing agency ensue. Rumors crop up like crabgrass at this stage. Many FTers begin to worry excessively about whether or not the trip will happen. Novices make non-refundable and financial committments to their trip. Seasoned FTers make mixed drinks (and maybe a sandwich) and is patient.
6. Reality Check - Accurate information is obtained - usually takes place a week to 10 days after mistake fare is published. Confirmed information from the source as to whether or not tickets will be honored.
7a. Pure Joy (Icelandair style- Fare is Honored) - Lots of happy people, FT threads on shared information regarding hotels, restaurants, tours, etc. Jealousy from others sets in. First "FT guinea pigs" embark, post confirmation threads that all is ok.
7b Hostile Feelings (Copa Airlines Style - fare is not honored) - Many angry and disappointed FTers. Refunds are issued. Novices have multiple discussion threads of lawsuits and hostile correspondence, FT pros mutter "c'est la vie" and look for the next fare mistake.
8a Success (Honored) - Trip Report thread becomes very active
Freedom of Information Act Request
File #2015-147, Office of the Secretary of Transportation - Receipt acknowledged 3/13/15
http://www.dot.gov/individuals/foia/office-secretary-foia-information
Relevant excerpt from my request on 2/24/15. There no need for multiple requests for the same thing, though feel free to request more or different information obviously. I'll post any updates as I get them.
"Under the Freedom of Information Act, 5 U.S. C. subsection 552, I am requesting access to any and all records of correspondence, including electronic, between anyone working for, or on the behalf of, United Airlines and its subsidiaries, and with anyone working for, or on the behalf of, the Department of Transportation; specifically this would include only the date range beginning on February 11th, 2015 through and including February 24th, 2015.
In addition, I am requesting access to any and all internal records and correspondence in relation to coming to the decision made on February 23rd, 2015 regarding the Office of Aviation Enforcement and Proceedings Determination Regarding United Airlines Mistaken Fare, with the exception of any of the consumer submitted complaints via phone, email, website, or letter. Specifically, this would be any records beginning on February 11th, 2015 through and including February 24th, 2015."
[PREM FARE GONE] UA: NCL-EWR 600 DKK (mistaken fare) DOT ruled; see wiki for link
Feb 11, 2015, 6:38 pm
#1996
Join Date: May 2008
Location: BOS/SIN
Programs: SQ
Posts: 2,704
Whether they're "afraid" of the DOT or not, they have little to lose. I guessed earlier today that we're talking about $10 million here. If you're UA, why eat this if there's a reasonable chance you won't have to.
And if you don't like the Reg, and want to get rid of it, this is a great test case for an airline. The facts will never be better for an airline. The mistake (apparently) wasn't even UA's fault. They are truly a victim here. The fare was clearly a mistake (less than even the gov't departure tax): EVERYONE knew this -- heck, they were gaming it by using the Danish website. No one who bought these tickets is a victim of deceptive marketing practices. Arguing that you "deserve" your ticket here is more than a little rich.
So we'll see what happens. It will certainly be interesting.
And if you don't like the Reg, and want to get rid of it, this is a great test case for an airline. The facts will never be better for an airline. The mistake (apparently) wasn't even UA's fault. They are truly a victim here. The fare was clearly a mistake (less than even the gov't departure tax): EVERYONE knew this -- heck, they were gaming it by using the Danish website. No one who bought these tickets is a victim of deceptive marketing practices. Arguing that you "deserve" your ticket here is more than a little rich.
So we'll see what happens. It will certainly be interesting.
Feb 11, 2015, 6:38 pm
#1997
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Programs: DL DM, UA 1K, AA EXP, US G, SPG P, HH D, MR G, NEXUS/GE, DL AMEX Reserve
Posts: 2,035
Feb 11, 2015, 6:39 pm
#1998
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Atlanta, GA / San Francisco, CA
Programs: BA Gold, TK Elite Plus
Posts: 1,150
Whether they're "afraid" of the DOT or not, they have little to lose. I guessed earlier today that we're talking about $10 million here. If you're UA, why eat this if there's a reasonable chance you won't have to.
And if you don't like the Reg, and want to get rid of it, this is a great test case for an airline. The facts will never be better for an airline. The mistake (apparently) wasn't even UA's fault. They are truly a victim here. The fare was clearly a mistake (less than even the gov't departure tax): EVERYONE knew this -- heck, they were gaming it by using the Danish website. No one who bought these tickets is a victim of deceptive marketing practices. Arguing that you "deserve" your ticket here is more than a little rich.
So we'll see what happens. It will certainly be interesting.
And if you don't like the Reg, and want to get rid of it, this is a great test case for an airline. The facts will never be better for an airline. The mistake (apparently) wasn't even UA's fault. They are truly a victim here. The fare was clearly a mistake (less than even the gov't departure tax): EVERYONE knew this -- heck, they were gaming it by using the Danish website. No one who bought these tickets is a victim of deceptive marketing practices. Arguing that you "deserve" your ticket here is more than a little rich.
So we'll see what happens. It will certainly be interesting.
They would end up losing maybe some hundreds of thousands which is nothing, and gain some goodwill back.
The risk to fight every DoT case is high, since DoT fines runs in tens of thousands per incident, meaning the potential is for tens of millions in sanctions and lots of loss-of-face.
Feb 11, 2015, 6:39 pm
#1999
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 736
This is interesting, why were these other fares cheap but not extremely cheap like lhr-lax? If it was just a currency conversion problem, then London-Tokyo would have had to have had a wildly high price to start with, but 10 or 15x lhr-north america is hard to believe (quick look on united shows 3x). What am I missing?
Feb 11, 2015, 6:39 pm
#2000
Join Date: Nov 2005
Programs: Flying Blue Gold, Air Berlin Gold, Etihad Silver (bad move)
Posts: 420
UAL's finances are really their business rather than mine.
Hope that clears things up for you
.
Feb 11, 2015, 6:40 pm
#2001
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Austin, TX, USA
Posts: 283
Whether they're "afraid" of the DOT or not, they have little to lose. I guessed earlier today that we're talking about $10 million here. If you're UA, why eat this if there's a reasonable chance you won't have to.
And if you don't like the Reg, and want to get rid of it, this is a great test case for an airline. The facts will never be better for an airline. The mistake (apparently) wasn't even UA's fault. They are truly a victim here. The fare was clearly a mistake (less than even the gov't departure tax): EVERYONE knew this -- heck, they were gaming it by using the Danish website. No one who bought these tickets is a victim of deceptive marketing practices. Arguing that you "deserve" your ticket here is more than a little rich.
So we'll see what happens. It will certainly be interesting.
And if you don't like the Reg, and want to get rid of it, this is a great test case for an airline. The facts will never be better for an airline. The mistake (apparently) wasn't even UA's fault. They are truly a victim here. The fare was clearly a mistake (less than even the gov't departure tax): EVERYONE knew this -- heck, they were gaming it by using the Danish website. No one who bought these tickets is a victim of deceptive marketing practices. Arguing that you "deserve" your ticket here is more than a little rich.
So we'll see what happens. It will certainly be interesting.
So I'm not worried about UA's profitability here.
Feb 11, 2015, 6:41 pm
#2002
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Trenton, NJ (PHL, EWR)
Programs: A3 Gold, BA Bronze
Posts: 1,633
Feb 11, 2015, 6:42 pm
#2003
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: BTS
Posts: 611
I'd guess it is because UA doesn't have an LON-TYO published fare, so the fare was probably LHR-XXX-TYO split into LHR-XXX and XXX-TYO and the XXX-TYO used a different exchange rate
Feb 11, 2015, 6:43 pm
#2005
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 101
FARE INFORMATION
Fare Breakdown
Airfare: 5,689 GBP
Equivalent Airfare: 57 DKK
U.K. Air Passenger Duty: 2
U.K. Passenger Service Charge: 1
Germany Passenger Service Charge: 158
International Surcharge: 3
Per Person Total: 221
DKK
eTicket Total: 442
DKK
Form of Payment:
XXXX
Last Four Digits XXXX
The airfare you paid on this itinerary totals: 114 DKK
The taxes, fees, and surcharges paid total: 328 DKK
So it looks like they had some difficulty converting GBP also :-).
Feb 11, 2015, 6:44 pm
#2006
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 17,425
If I was UA, I would "cancel" every ticket first to get rid of vast majority of the liability. The rest who complain, I would downgrade those bookings to Y and pay the required 75% of paid fare for this downgrade or simply keep it as it is.
They would end up losing maybe some hundreds of thousands which is nothing, and gain some goodwill back.
The risk to fight every DoT case is high, since DoT fines runs in tens of thousands per incident, meaning the potential is for tens of millions in sanctions and lots of loss-of-face.
They would end up losing maybe some hundreds of thousands which is nothing, and gain some goodwill back.
The risk to fight every DoT case is high, since DoT fines runs in tens of thousands per incident, meaning the potential is for tens of millions in sanctions and lots of loss-of-face.
Feb 11, 2015, 6:44 pm
#2008
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Singapore
Programs: BA Gold, SPG Gold, KF Gold/PPS
Posts: 204
Well now that I look closer at my eTicket from earlier, it shows this:
FARE INFORMATION
Fare Breakdown
Airfare: 5,689 GBP
Equivalent Airfare: 57 DKK
U.K. Air Passenger Duty: 2
U.K. Passenger Service Charge: 1
Germany Passenger Service Charge: 158
International Surcharge: 3
Per Person Total: 221
DKK
eTicket Total: 442
DKK
Form of Payment:
XXXX
Last Four Digits XXXX
The airfare you paid on this itinerary totals: 114 DKK
The taxes, fees, and surcharges paid total: 328 DKK
So it looks like they had some difficulty converting GBP also :-).
FARE INFORMATION
Fare Breakdown
Airfare: 5,689 GBP
Equivalent Airfare: 57 DKK
U.K. Air Passenger Duty: 2
U.K. Passenger Service Charge: 1
Germany Passenger Service Charge: 158
International Surcharge: 3
Per Person Total: 221
DKK
eTicket Total: 442
DKK
Form of Payment:
XXXX
Last Four Digits XXXX
The airfare you paid on this itinerary totals: 114 DKK
The taxes, fees, and surcharges paid total: 328 DKK
So it looks like they had some difficulty converting GBP also :-).
Feb 11, 2015, 6:45 pm
#2009
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Trenton, NJ (PHL, EWR)
Programs: A3 Gold, BA Bronze
Posts: 1,633
more power to you