Jun 19, 2013, 9:45 pm

FlyerTalk Forums Expert How-Tos and Guides

Last edit by: fti

People, please edit/use the wiki so same questions are not always asked.

The current CTA decision on the Yangon deal is only for tickets canceled by SWISS Airlines for the seven merged complaints/companions and tickets canceled by Jet Airways for one complainant and companions
- It's not about other carriers because each carrier submits different tariffs.
- If you are not one of the complainants or their companions above who were mentioned in the respective cases, you need to submit a case yourself for hearing.
- There's currently one person who is on Iberia for CTA decision, one can either wait for results or submit a complaint to CTA.

Result of the current case for LX in brief is:
- CTA found 5(F) in the tariff used to be unclear for canceling tickets on erroneously quoted fares.
- 5(F) is unjust and unreasonable and must be revised or taken down by July 9, 2013 (or SWISS can appeal by then)
- SWISS did not use its tariff correctly to cancel the tickets.
- SWISS must compensate one complainant's First Class ticket and any related expenses by July 18, 2013 provided with evidence.
- SWISS must transport other complainants (and their companions) in the original price charged with same booking class and routing by June 18, 2014.

Result of the current case for 9W in brief is:
- Tariff on file had no clauses for "erroneous fares" and was updated subsequently, which means it is not relevant to this event
- Therefore, 9W is to reinstate the tickets with a 1-year validity for transport between the same points and the same booking class.

CTA official news can be read here for general overview of the case.

Actual CTA case review can be found here for reference should you wish to file a complaint.

If you have a similar case that's with SWISS, you need to file with CTA to get a result through informal process first before it gets to formal process. The entire procedure can take up to 3 months for each and the result may not be same cause it's case-by-base and the reviewer of the case can be different.

To file an informal complaint with CTA, see here. Click through all of the pages to get to the online form for the informal complaint. Or click here.

To file a formal complaint after informal complaint has been closed, see here. Continue on to the next page to see the address or email address for the formal complaint.

The July 17th and 18th responses from LX can be found here:

Other Letters:

Feel free to add dates, flights, etc., in order to plan DOs, etc.

Aug 4: SFO-ICN (UA893)
Jason8612

Aug 5: ICN-SFO (UA892)
Jason8612

Aug 7: SFO-ICN (UA893)
Jason8612

Aug 11: ICN-NRT-ORD (UA78, UA882)
Jason8612

Aug 14: BOS-IAD-NRT-ICN (UA285, UA803, UA79)
Deltspygt

Aug 19: ICN-NRT-IAD-BOS (UA78, UA804, UA352)
Deltspygt

Oct 1: UA433-UA893
JeredF +1

Oct 8: UA892-UA242
JeredF +1

Oct 9: BOS-SFO-ICN (UA433, UA893)
BigJC

Oct 13: ICN-NRT-ORD-BOS (UA78, UA882, UA744)
BigJC

Oct 21: BOS-SFO UA433 to SFO-ICN UA893
Sterndogg +1
flyerdude88 (SFO - ICN portion only)

Oct 23: ICN - SFO UA 892
flyerdude88

Oct 27: ICN-SFO UA892 to SFO-BOS UA286
Sterndogg +1

Nov 05: BOS-ORD UA521, ORD-NRT UA881
kokonutz, I012609, BingoSF +1

Nov 11: ICN-SFO UA892, SFO-IAD UA727
kokonutz, I012609, BingoSF +1

Nov 26: BOS-SFO UA433, SFO-NRT UA837, NRT-ICN UA79
thepla

Nov 27: BOS-ORD-NRT-ICN (UA501, UA881, UA196)
BigJC+1

Nov 29: Planning 2 days in TPE, been to ICN
thepla

Dec 1: ICN-SFO UA892, SFO-ORD UA698, ORD-BOS UA961
thepla

Dec 1: ICN-NRT-IAD-BOS (UA78, UA804, UA822)
BigJC+1

Dec 15: BOS-SFO UA433, SFO-ICN UA893
songzm

Dec 25: BOS-IAD UA285, IAD-NRT UA803, NRT-ICN UA79
Dinoscool3 +2

Dec 30: ICN-SFO UA892, SFO-BOS UA444
songzm

Dec 31: ICN-SFO UA892, SFO-BOS UA770
Dinoscool3 +2

Jan 11: BOS-SFO UA1523, Jan 12: SFO-ICN UA893
margarita girl

Jan 12: BOS-SFO UA433, SFO-ICN UA893
Zebranz

14 Jan: BOS-SFO UA433 to SFO-ICN UA893
ORDOGG

19 Jan: ICN-SFO UA892 to SFO-ORD UA698 to ORD-BOS UA961
ORDOGG

Jan 22: ICN-SFO UA892 SFO-BOS UA500
margarita girl

Feb 5: ICN-SFO UA892 SFO-BOS UA242
Zebranz

CMB-DFW EY F

FARE IS GONE

FARE RULES (thanks to SQ421)
FRTLK Fare Rules (RT)
FOWLK Fare Rules (OW)

WHEN ARE YOU FLYING?
Feel free to add any additional cities you're leaving from!
Please slot yourselves in!!!

ex-CMB
Feb

Mar
8 - Darmajaya
12 - Thaidai
22 - Deadinabsentia

Apr
21 - SQ421, penegal, jozdemir
26 - tahsir21

May
28 - Upperdeck744
29 - bonsaisai (positioning flights SIN-CMB, DFW-ORD)

Jun
12 - lelee

Jul
7 - HansGolden +6
8 - arcticbull + 1
11 - bonsaisai's friend (positioning flights: SIN-CMB, DFW-MCI)
25 - Tycosiao
30 - bonsaisai's friend (positioning flights: MCI-DFW, CMB-SIN)

Aug
17 - DC777Fan
26 - Yi Yang
31 - dcas

Sep

Oct

Nov
8 - harryhv
29 - stephem+4

Dec
6 - roastpuff and (soon) Mrs. roastpuff , JFKEZE (UL Code-share)
7 - DWFI
10 - jlisi984 + dad (CMB-AUH-DFW)
21 - bonsaisai (positioning flights SIN-CMB, DFW-ORD)

ex-AUH
Jan

Feb

Mar

Apr
27 - RICHKLHS

May

Jun
29 - yerffej201

Jul
9 - HansGolden +6
27 - Tycosiao

Aug

Sep

Oct

Nov
30 - stephem+4 (to JFK)

Dec
7 - JFKEZE, DWFI [EY161 nonstop]
9 - roastpuff and (soon) Mrs. Roastpuff

ex-DFW
Jan

Feb

Mar
14 - Thaidai
15 - zainman +1

Apr
25 - SQ421, penegal, jozdemir

May

Jun

Jul

Aug
22 - arcticbull + 1

Sep
22 - bonsaisai (positioning flights ORD-DFW, CMB-SIN)

Oct

Nov
19 - harryhv->Paris

Dec
19 - Yi Yang, jona970318
24 - DWFI (EY160 nonstop)
26 - HansGolden +6 (CDG), LwoodY2K (AUH)

[PREM FARE GONE] RGN First class comes back again!!!!

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Feb 22, 2014, 8:26 am

#9961

Pseudo Nim

Join Date: Jan 2006

Location: In the air

Programs: Occasional RTW club

Posts: 6,924

I think it's my turn to be the snarky arse, but I'm wondering whether we can keep the +1s as PMs to jasonvr. This thread is spectacularly hard to follow already. As added bonus, though, you'd be a) staying undeclared to the public that you've joined and b) saving jasonvr a tremendous amount of hassle fishing out your +1s from the thread to PM you.

Feb 22, 2014, 8:30 am

#9962

yosithezet

Moderator, El Al and Marriott Bonvoy, FlyerTalk Evangelist

Join Date: Feb 2005

Location: SIN

Programs: SQ*G, Mar LTT, Hyatt Glb, AA LTG, LY, HH, IC, BA, DL, UA SLV

Posts: 12,018

Everyone can just PM him their email address to be added. Or, if he has the addresses, he can just email everyone.

Feb 22, 2014, 9:16 am

#9963

palefire

Join Date: Apr 2008

Posts: 389

The email addresses of the 80 were included on pages 5-13 of the Letter to Cathy Murphy of Feb 13, 2014. Perhaps the thing to do, for the purposes of security, would be to insist that only those email addresses (or any other complainant email addresses that later appear in official communications) be on the list? In fact perhaps jasonvr could just start a closed google group with those 80 addresses, and people can opt out if they want to.

jasonvr, do you have that letter? if not, I'll send a copy to the email address that I have for you.

Feb 22, 2014, 9:57 am

#9964

OnAMileHigh

Join Date: Dec 2002

Location: Chicago

Programs: AA Exp Plat, UA 1K MM, DL Plat Hyatt Globalist, MGM Noir

Posts: 882

Quote:

Originally Posted by palefire

All of the e-mail addresses were in yesterday's letter as well, including the five new complaints added by the CTA.

I am more than willing to assist jasonvr in any adminstratative tasks. PM if I can be of assistance.

Last edited by OnAMileHigh; Feb 22, 2014 at 10:07 am

Feb 22, 2014, 10:55 am

#9965

jasonvr

Join Date: Feb 2005

Location: So Cal

Programs: UA Gold/0.744MM, WN AL, Hyatt Diamond, MR Scum, Hertz PC, National Exec, Avis PC

Posts: 5,561

Per the previous posts, yes, the +1's can stop. I just needed a general sentiment.

As far as PMs - they will NOT be accepted. If you're not on an official CTA document that I have in my possession, you will not be added. I will invite everyone based on those email addresses. That should keep the group "pure". I will post back when the group is created and everyone should be a member. If at that time you think you should have been included, but weren't (likely due to either CTA or myself messing up your email address), I'll address it then. I'll also address additional cases that subsequently get joined to the original as best as I can.

I'll start on the process this afternoon after I'm done running errands.

As far as the discovery question above, I'm assuming that is referring to legal discovery, not "hey look what we stumbled upon" discovery

IANAL, but haven't we been told multiple times that CTA is not a court, but rather a "quasi-judicial administrative tribunal responsible for a wide range of adjudicative and regulatory economic matters pertaining to federally-regulated air, rail, marine and extra-provincial bus transportation". Is there even a discovery process? Or is the concern about separate or subsequent legal proceedings?

PS:
Those conspiracy theorists/worrywarts/engineers out there (like me) may realize that keeping the membership to the emails in the CTA letters is a good way to maintain the purity, but it actually leaves me as the "wild card". I could be anyone including an interloper, especially since I volunteered to take on this effort and the email you will see in the site will NOT be the email in the group (my Google address is not the one listed in the CTA complaint). The only rebuttal I can provide is to look at my posting history. I have been "in" on the RGN sales since R1 (check out post 26 of that thread), but I have not flown any because *A wasn't in on R1 and I missed out on R2. A truly paranoid person could devise a scheme whereby I am verified to be who I say I am by using the email in the complaint and the email in the group and proving the two actually go to the same person

Feb 22, 2014, 11:03 am

#9966

jasonvr

Join Date: Feb 2005

Location: So Cal

Programs: UA Gold/0.744MM, WN AL, Hyatt Diamond, MR Scum, Hertz PC, National Exec, Avis PC

Posts: 5,561

Quote:

Formal Agency decisions are binding on all parties unless overturned. There are three ways to overturn a decision:

If, subsequent to the Decision being issued, there has been a change in the facts or circumstances pertaining to the Decision, the Agency may be requested to review it;
You may file a request for leave to appeal (on a matter of law or jurisdiction) to the Federal Court of Appeal within one month after the date of the Decision;
The Governor-in-Council (Cabinet) may, at any time, vary or rescind any Decision of the Agency.

They tried the "change in facts" argument. They filed for a leave to appeal. And they decided to ask the Governor-in-Council.

Feb 22, 2014, 11:13 am

#9967

BZRORG

Join Date: Jun 2013

Programs: 1K

Posts: 93

Would it be possible to include others that are also in the process but with different carriers? While not relevant directly to our cases, the thought process and discussion could be beneficial.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jasonvr

Feb 22, 2014, 3:27 pm

#9968

Deltahater

Join Date: Aug 2004

Location: SAT

Programs: AA EXP BA Gold, TK Gold, Hyatt Globalist, Hilton Diamond, AS 100K, QR PLT, SAS Gold, IHG Spire, AMR

Posts: 5,898

Quote:

Originally Posted by BZRORG

Would it be possible to include others that are also in the process but with different carriers? While not relevant directly to our cases, the thought process and discussion could be beneficial.

I disagree.

IB is handling this completely differently than LX. I think this requires laser sharp focus and dedication and including other carriers will dilute that.

This is an not a wednesday night bar trivia gathering, but a matter that could have a million dollar+ profit impact on LX. They are taking it seriously and so should we.

Feb 22, 2014, 4:25 pm

#9969

BZRORG

Join Date: Jun 2013

Programs: 1K

Posts: 93

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deltahater

Firstly, please dont assume I am not taking this seriously.
Secondly, I am not suggesting the inclusion of other carriers so those that have different plating carries can opine on how/what the LX folk should write.

I am suggesting, those with verifiable skin in the game with other carriers that have already sent in their formal complaints against other carriers be given the forum to listen in, and only listen in, on the thought process of the LX group, in a fly on the wall type of scenario.

While you are correct in saying the specifics of each are different, the overriding theme is that each set of carriers are, in fact arguing on the same common derivation of their respective positions, give or take.

Last edited by BZRORG; Feb 22, 2014 at 4:32 pm

Feb 22, 2014, 6:26 pm

#9970

BrewerSEA

Join Date: Nov 2010

Location: Seattle

Programs: AS MVPG 75K

Posts: 2,574

Quote:

Originally Posted by jasonvr

Hey, I may be dense, but I just realized something. LX and Davis are directly following the script on CTA's website. No real thought or deep-dive into the process, just follow it verbatim.

https://www.otc-cta.gc.ca/eng/formal...int-resolution

They tried the "change in facts" argument. They filed for a leave to appeal. And they decided to ask the Governor-in-Council.

Swiss are simply trying to take advantage of every mechanism to appeal this case. They asked the Agency to vary its own decision, tried to appeal through the established process at the FCA, petitioned the GIC, and in a last ditch effort asked the FCA to exercise its ultimate power of judicial review, despite the existence of a privative clause in the Canada Transportion Act that requires extreme deference be given to the findings of the Agency.

Feb 22, 2014, 6:43 pm

#9971

jasonvr

Join Date: Feb 2005

Location: So Cal

Programs: UA Gold/0.744MM, WN AL, Hyatt Diamond, MR Scum, Hertz PC, National Exec, Avis PC

Posts: 5,561

All, the group officially exists. I have confirmed (via my wife's Google account) that the contents are not visible if you are not a member. However, as I was entering all the email addresses and names into a spreadsheet first, I came to the stunning realization that not everyone lives on FT

As such, I don't think blindly inviting everyone on that list into the group is the right way to go about this. Instead, please send me an email via FT with your name and email (I have temporarily enabled this feature). I will cross check that with the CTA letters I have access to. Assuming everything matches up, I'll add you to the group and send back a link. You'll also get an email directly from Google telling you that you've been added.

To email me via FT, use this link:
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/sendm...member&u=50378

I've currently got 3 threads started:

The main discussion thread
Problems, suggestions, issues
Missing persons

Feb 22, 2014, 7:37 pm

#9972

LHR/MEL/Europe FF

FlyerTalk Evangelist

Join Date: Mar 2001

Location: AU

Programs: former Olympic Airways Gold (yeah - still proud of that!)

Posts: 14,406

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrewerSEA

on the last point the distinction is made between the facts of the case (what happened) and an error of fact made by the CTA.

they are two completely separate concepts. the latter is clearly subject to review.

Feb 22, 2014, 7:48 pm

#9973

Deltahater

Join Date: Aug 2004

Location: SAT

Programs: AA EXP BA Gold, TK Gold, Hyatt Globalist, Hilton Diamond, AS 100K, QR PLT, SAS Gold, IHG Spire, AMR

Posts: 5,898

Quote:

Originally Posted by BZRORG

I did not mean to imply that you don't take this seriously.
A listen in position is very different from "here is my situation with 9W...."
you are right, the overriding theme of the red-headed stepchild carriers that are left in the mud is very much identical. "We are victimized by smart consumers...." or is it" We are punished by our own incompetence..." I am not sure anymore.

All the honorable carriers have already transported everybody and are laughing at LX and its dirty scoundrels....

Feb 22, 2014, 7:55 pm

#9974

Deltahater

Join Date: Aug 2004

Location: SAT

Programs: AA EXP BA Gold, TK Gold, Hyatt Globalist, Hilton Diamond, AS 100K, QR PLT, SAS Gold, IHG Spire, AMR

Posts: 5,898

Quote:

Originally Posted by jasonvr

However, as I was entering all the email addresses and names into a spreadsheet first, I came to the stunning realization that not everyone lives on FT

However, is it probably very fair to assume that even those who don't live on FT have an FT connection, otherwise how would they have found out about this?

I hope you know what you signed up for here... I did this for the catera shopping disaster and it become a full time job for a few weeks

Feb 22, 2014, 8:02 pm

#9975

jasonvr

Join Date: Feb 2005

Location: So Cal

Programs: UA Gold/0.744MM, WN AL, Hyatt Diamond, MR Scum, Hertz PC, National Exec, Avis PC

Posts: 5,561

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deltahater

However, is it probably very fair to assume that even those who don't live on FT have an FT connection, otherwise how would they have found out about this?

I hope you know what you signed up for here... I did this for the catera shopping disaster and it become a full time job for a few weeks

Well, I assume that some people MIGHT have heard about it from friends or blogs.

Which Cartera shopping disaster, there have been so many

I fought with them for months over UA's Months of Miles promo and prevailed in the end.