Jun 19, 2013, 9:45 pm

FlyerTalk Forums Expert How-Tos and Guides

Last edit by: fti

People, please edit/use the wiki so same questions are not always asked.

The current CTA decision on the Yangon deal is only for tickets canceled by SWISS Airlines for the seven merged complaints/companions and tickets canceled by Jet Airways for one complainant and companions
- It's not about other carriers because each carrier submits different tariffs.
- If you are not one of the complainants or their companions above who were mentioned in the respective cases, you need to submit a case yourself for hearing.
- There's currently one person who is on Iberia for CTA decision, one can either wait for results or submit a complaint to CTA.

Result of the current case for LX in brief is:
- CTA found 5(F) in the tariff used to be unclear for canceling tickets on erroneously quoted fares.
- 5(F) is unjust and unreasonable and must be revised or taken down by July 9, 2013 (or SWISS can appeal by then)
- SWISS did not use its tariff correctly to cancel the tickets.
- SWISS must compensate one complainant's First Class ticket and any related expenses by July 18, 2013 provided with evidence.
- SWISS must transport other complainants (and their companions) in the original price charged with same booking class and routing by June 18, 2014.

Result of the current case for 9W in brief is:
- Tariff on file had no clauses for "erroneous fares" and was updated subsequently, which means it is not relevant to this event
- Therefore, 9W is to reinstate the tickets with a 1-year validity for transport between the same points and the same booking class.

CTA official news can be read here for general overview of the case.

Actual CTA case review can be found here for reference should you wish to file a complaint.

If you have a similar case that's with SWISS, you need to file with CTA to get a result through informal process first before it gets to formal process. The entire procedure can take up to 3 months for each and the result may not be same cause it's case-by-base and the reviewer of the case can be different.

To file an informal complaint with CTA, see here. Click through all of the pages to get to the online form for the informal complaint. Or click here.

To file a formal complaint after informal complaint has been closed, see here. Continue on to the next page to see the address or email address for the formal complaint.

The July 17th and 18th responses from LX can be found here:

Other Letters:

Feel free to add dates, flights, etc., in order to plan DOs, etc.

Aug 4: SFO-ICN (UA893)
Jason8612

Aug 5: ICN-SFO (UA892)
Jason8612

Aug 7: SFO-ICN (UA893)
Jason8612

Aug 11: ICN-NRT-ORD (UA78, UA882)
Jason8612

Aug 14: BOS-IAD-NRT-ICN (UA285, UA803, UA79)
Deltspygt

Aug 19: ICN-NRT-IAD-BOS (UA78, UA804, UA352)
Deltspygt

Oct 1: UA433-UA893
JeredF +1

Oct 8: UA892-UA242
JeredF +1

Oct 9: BOS-SFO-ICN (UA433, UA893)
BigJC

Oct 13: ICN-NRT-ORD-BOS (UA78, UA882, UA744)
BigJC

Oct 21: BOS-SFO UA433 to SFO-ICN UA893
Sterndogg +1
flyerdude88 (SFO - ICN portion only)

Oct 23: ICN - SFO UA 892
flyerdude88

Oct 27: ICN-SFO UA892 to SFO-BOS UA286
Sterndogg +1

Nov 05: BOS-ORD UA521, ORD-NRT UA881
kokonutz, I012609, BingoSF +1

Nov 11: ICN-SFO UA892, SFO-IAD UA727
kokonutz, I012609, BingoSF +1

Nov 26: BOS-SFO UA433, SFO-NRT UA837, NRT-ICN UA79
thepla

Nov 27: BOS-ORD-NRT-ICN (UA501, UA881, UA196)
BigJC+1

Nov 29: Planning 2 days in TPE, been to ICN
thepla

Dec 1: ICN-SFO UA892, SFO-ORD UA698, ORD-BOS UA961
thepla

Dec 1: ICN-NRT-IAD-BOS (UA78, UA804, UA822)
BigJC+1

Dec 15: BOS-SFO UA433, SFO-ICN UA893
songzm

Dec 25: BOS-IAD UA285, IAD-NRT UA803, NRT-ICN UA79
Dinoscool3 +2

Dec 30: ICN-SFO UA892, SFO-BOS UA444
songzm

Dec 31: ICN-SFO UA892, SFO-BOS UA770
Dinoscool3 +2

Jan 11: BOS-SFO UA1523, Jan 12: SFO-ICN UA893
margarita girl

Jan 12: BOS-SFO UA433, SFO-ICN UA893
Zebranz

14 Jan: BOS-SFO UA433 to SFO-ICN UA893
ORDOGG

19 Jan: ICN-SFO UA892 to SFO-ORD UA698 to ORD-BOS UA961
ORDOGG

Jan 22: ICN-SFO UA892 SFO-BOS UA500
margarita girl

Feb 5: ICN-SFO UA892 SFO-BOS UA242
Zebranz

CMB-DFW EY F

FARE IS GONE

FARE RULES (thanks to SQ421)
FRTLK Fare Rules (RT)
FOWLK Fare Rules (OW)

WHEN ARE YOU FLYING?
Feel free to add any additional cities you're leaving from!
Please slot yourselves in!!!

ex-CMB
Feb

Mar
8 - Darmajaya
12 - Thaidai
22 - Deadinabsentia

Apr
21 - SQ421, penegal, jozdemir
26 - tahsir21

May
28 - Upperdeck744
29 - bonsaisai (positioning flights SIN-CMB, DFW-ORD)

Jun
12 - lelee

Jul
7 - HansGolden +6
8 - arcticbull + 1
11 - bonsaisai's friend (positioning flights: SIN-CMB, DFW-MCI)
25 - Tycosiao
30 - bonsaisai's friend (positioning flights: MCI-DFW, CMB-SIN)

Aug
17 - DC777Fan
26 - Yi Yang
31 - dcas

Sep

Oct

Nov
8 - harryhv
29 - stephem+4

Dec
6 - roastpuff and (soon) Mrs. roastpuff , JFKEZE (UL Code-share)
7 - DWFI
10 - jlisi984 + dad (CMB-AUH-DFW)
21 - bonsaisai (positioning flights SIN-CMB, DFW-ORD)

ex-AUH
Jan

Feb

Mar

Apr
27 - RICHKLHS

May

Jun
29 - yerffej201

Jul
9 - HansGolden +6
27 - Tycosiao

Aug

Sep

Oct

Nov
30 - stephem+4 (to JFK)

Dec
7 - JFKEZE, DWFI [EY161 nonstop]
9 - roastpuff and (soon) Mrs. Roastpuff

ex-DFW
Jan

Feb

Mar
14 - Thaidai
15 - zainman +1

Apr
25 - SQ421, penegal, jozdemir

May

Jun

Jul

Aug
22 - arcticbull + 1

Sep
22 - bonsaisai (positioning flights ORD-DFW, CMB-SIN)

Oct

Nov
19 - harryhv->Paris

Dec
19 - Yi Yang, jona970318
24 - DWFI (EY160 nonstop)
26 - HansGolden +6 (CDG), LwoodY2K (AUH)

[PREM FARE GONE] RGN First class comes back again!!!!

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Feb 21, 2014, 4:16 pm

#9946

RCyyz

Join Date: Dec 2007

Location: Body in Downtown YYZ, heart and mind elsewhere

Programs: UA 50K, refugee from AC E50K, Marriott Lifetime Plat

Posts: 5,132

My this case does continue to be interesting!

Quote:

Originally Posted by redtailshark

CTA to adjudicate the question (1): the "serious question" of the validity of Tarriff 5F, the "technical error" and related interpretations.

Keeping in mind that I am not a lawyer, this is not my understanding. LX has referred this matter to the Governor-in-Council and thus requested that the CTA issue a Stay until such time as the Governor-in-Council replies. As I have stated previously, I consider this a gross abuse of the system!

In a previous ruling, the Supreme Court of Canada set a standard that in order for a Stay to be issued (pending Governor-in-Council rulings), 3 conditions must be met. The CTA agrees that condition #1 is met, but conditions #2 and #3 are not met. Accordingly a Stay will not be granted and this whole Governor-in-Council thing goes away.

I think the CTA is doing exactly the right thing here! ^

I assume that the CTA has previously ruled against LX. The Federal Court of Appeal has already told LX to go away and have a nice life. The Stay pending Governor-in-Council is not granted. So effectively LX is being ordered to settle with all of you no later than 24 March. And you all have until 04 April to agree or not with whatever settlement is offered.

Note that since all the cases have been lumped together, it is unlikely that any one person will get a better / different settlement than anyone else.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SOLTATIO

It may be expedited so that the res judicata issue can be decided and resolved in time for them to be joined with the case of the rest of the folks in case SWISS' objection is dismissed?

Again, I don't think so. These 3 people already tried some form of litigation against LX in the USA. So these 3 cases will be heard on their own on a different timeline. I think it likely that the CTA will simply dismiss the cases that were litigated. The one(s) that got withdrawn may still be eligible if the withdrawal was specifically to be able to join the main CTA case.

Feb 21, 2014, 4:55 pm

#9947

cruisr

Join Date: Dec 2004

Programs: UA-1K, MM, Hilton-Diamond, Marriott-Titanium

Posts: 4,432

Quote:

Originally Posted by RCyyz

My this case does continue to be interesting!

I certainly hope NOT....

Feb 21, 2014, 5:10 pm

#9948

jasonvr

Join Date: Feb 2005

Location: So Cal

Programs: UA Gold/0.744MM, WN AL, Hyatt Diamond, MR Scum, Hertz PC, National Exec, Avis PC

Posts: 5,561

I got my letter today as well. I was thinking the same thing about setting up some sort of private forum where we can make a coordinated response. We've got the email addresses and names of everyone who should be allowed into the group which should allow us to prevent interlopers.

I am confused about the pleadings though. Are the pleadings for only the three separately (previously) litigated cases, or is it for everyone? It would seem we should be interested in what the original 7 submitted for their pleadings since they were successful (fully realizing that CTA itself says that largely similar cases may not have the same outcome).

Feb 21, 2014, 6:53 pm

#9949

lewende

Join Date: Aug 2011

Location: 10^7 mm from Ȱ

Programs: Hyatt D/HHonors D/ SPG P/ Marriott P/ IHG P/ UA 1K/ AA EXP/ DL D

Posts: 1,976

Quote:

Originally Posted by RCyyz

Exactly, my thought as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RCyyz

I assume that the CTA has previously ruled against LX. The Federal Court of Appeal has already told LX to go away and have a nice life. The Stay pending Governor-in-Council is not granted.

I think you had a typo here: The Stay pending Governor-in-Council's decision was granted by FCA. See, here is what happened back in Jan. 2014 when CTA filed petition to FCA to:

(1) Quash LX' application of judicial review of CTA decision;
(2) Regardless of (1), a stay of LX' application of judicial review pending the outcome of Governor-in-Council's decision (which may never come);
(3) Regardless of (1) and (2), grant CTA a 20-day response time to rebut LX' application.

About a week ago the decision from FCA is: (1) is dismissed, but (2) is granted while (3) is unknown. This is a marvelous move from CTA to outsmart LX in terms of LX' efforts to drag the whole thing indefinitely have been successfully thwarted.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RCyyz

So effectively LX is being ordered to settle with all of you no later than 24 March. And you all have until 04 April to agree or not with whatever settlement is offered.

That's not my read in today's decision from CTA. LX is only ordered to submit a response by March 24, not to surrender by that time.

Last edited by lewende; Feb 21, 2014 at 7:51 pm Reason: Typo

Feb 21, 2014, 7:41 pm

#9950

Sykes

Join Date: Aug 2008

Location: SF Bay Area

Programs: UA 1K, Hyatt Globalist, Virtuoso Travel Agent, Commercial Pilot

Posts: 2,117

Quote:

Originally Posted by lewende

That's not my read in today's decision from CTA. LX is only ordered to submit a response by March 24, not to surrender by that time.

This is my interpretation as well. The CTA has not issued any ruling whatsoever regarding cases outside of 7 initial complaints (other than to delay the proceedings until the initial complaints were settled). The CTA is now inviting SWISS and the other 83(+) parties to file pleadings in support of or in response to the other complaints. The CTA has said several times that each case is considered separately and based on its own merits, so we will have to wait until the formal proceedings regarding the second set of complaints are complete before SWISS is required to take any action except for that ordered during the first case.

Feb 21, 2014, 7:46 pm

#9951

palefire

Join Date: Apr 2008

Posts: 389

Quote:

Originally Posted by RCyyz

So effectively LX is being ordered to settle with all of you no later than 24 March. And you all have until 04 April to agree or not with whatever settlement is offered.

I don't think that's accurate. The formal process for the 80+ starts from the beginning again -- except to the extent that the ground has shifted, since tariff 5(F) was struck down in the previous case -- so the 24 March deadline is just for LX to file their response to our complaints (not to settle with us).

Feb 21, 2014, 9:14 pm

#9952

yerffej201

Join Date: Nov 2011

Posts: 6,385

Wait, to get this straight...

we have our original 7 complaints (me + 6)
.
.
then another group of 80? where swiss and legal will send 5 boxes of "paper" to everyone?

I can't imagine doing this with 79 other people... we had an email chain going with our group of 7 but i'm not sure if that'll work with 80
this is such a ridiculous process...

Feb 21, 2014, 9:30 pm

#9953

jasonvr

Join Date: Feb 2005

Location: So Cal

Programs: UA Gold/0.744MM, WN AL, Hyatt Diamond, MR Scum, Hertz PC, National Exec, Avis PC

Posts: 5,561

Quote:

Originally Posted by yerffej201

An email chain will not work with a group that large (and it's over 80 people). If no one has already started on the task, and if people agree (post here), I'll start up a private Google group using the addresses in the latest email as well as the posted documents with the original 7. We should be able to lock it down to keep it away from prying eyes

Edit:
Who else noticed that we crossed 10,000 posts in this thread today!

Last edited by jasonvr; Feb 21, 2014 at 9:54 pm

Feb 21, 2014, 9:57 pm

#9954

calvinoeh

Join Date: Jul 2008

Location: Penang, Malaysia

Programs: OZ *G, HHonors Gold, Aclub Plat

Posts: 1,025

Quote:

Originally Posted by jasonvr

google group works for me.

Feb 21, 2014, 9:59 pm

#9955

lewende

Join Date: Aug 2011

Location: 10^7 mm from Ȱ

Programs: Hyatt D/HHonors D/ SPG P/ Marriott P/ IHG P/ UA 1K/ AA EXP/ DL D

Posts: 1,976

Quote:

Originally Posted by jasonvr

Edit:
Who else noticed that we crossed 10,000 posts in this thread today!

Me! And, thanks Swiss!

Feb 21, 2014, 10:44 pm

#9956

groobie

Join Date: Jan 2012

Location: Southern California

Programs: UA Platinum, Marriott Gold, SPG Gold, Club Carlson Gold

Posts: 317

Quote:

Originally Posted by jasonvr

If no one has already started on the task, and if people agree (post here), I'll start up a private Google group using the addresses in the latest email as well as the posted documents with the original 7.

Count me in.

Thanks in advance for setting it up.

Feb 21, 2014, 10:47 pm

#9957

zig2

Join Date: Feb 2010

Location: SFO

Programs: AS MVP, Hyatt Globalist

Posts: 803

Quote:

Originally Posted by groobie

Count me in.

Thanks in advance for setting it up.

Feb 22, 2014, 5:33 am

#9958

emma dog

Join Date: Mar 2006

Location: Hotlanta.

Programs: I've gone underground!

Posts: 4,604

+1

For any lawyers out there, how do we ensure the work isn't discoverable by Swiss?

Feb 22, 2014, 6:17 am

#9959

Deltahater

Join Date: Aug 2004

Location: SAT

Programs: AA EXP BA Gold, TK Gold, Hyatt Globalist, Hilton Diamond, AS 100K, QR PLT, SAS Gold, IHG Spire, AMR

Posts: 5,898

I am not a lawyer, but if you have a lawyer in your group, wouldn't it be work product, and thus protected by client attorney privilege?

BTW, the group of 80 grew by at least 3 ticket holders yesterday

Feb 22, 2014, 8:04 am

#9960

OnAMileHigh

Join Date: Dec 2002

Location: Chicago

Programs: AA Exp Plat, UA 1K MM, DL Plat Hyatt Globalist, MGM Noir

Posts: 882

Quote:

Originally Posted by calvinoeh

google group works for me.