(Gone) RGN - SFO in F $450 one way AI; other N. America cities included
May 6, 2012, 2:16 am
#2341
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 42
Just re-read 14 CFR Sec. 399.88. It applies solely to post-sale fare increases, not to cancellations with full refunds. As written, it is perfectly consistent with basic contract law principles.
To take this one step further, I see nothing in the regs that would allow for a private right of action, even assuming the CFR section did apply to mistake fare cancellations.
As for the risk of hefty fines, I would be unsurprised were the DOT to see the complaints much as I do: the crocodile tears of a handful of frustrated opportunists. If the OTA's and carriers wish to pay compensation beyond full refunds I expect they would do so for business reasons having little to do with the risk of DOT sanctions.
As a hobby flyer who loves a great deal, I'm sorry I can't support the rallying cry of those whose tix were cancelled. Unfortunately, neither the law nor the equities favor the purchasers of these too-good-to-be-true deals.
If there is some other code provision I may have missed, I would happily revisit my conclusion.
--mcz
To take this one step further, I see nothing in the regs that would allow for a private right of action, even assuming the CFR section did apply to mistake fare cancellations.
As for the risk of hefty fines, I would be unsurprised were the DOT to see the complaints much as I do: the crocodile tears of a handful of frustrated opportunists. If the OTA's and carriers wish to pay compensation beyond full refunds I expect they would do so for business reasons having little to do with the risk of DOT sanctions.
As a hobby flyer who loves a great deal, I'm sorry I can't support the rallying cry of those whose tix were cancelled. Unfortunately, neither the law nor the equities favor the purchasers of these too-good-to-be-true deals.
If there is some other code provision I may have missed, I would happily revisit my conclusion.
--mcz
(I think there have been anecdotal reports upthread that people have been offered the opportunity to re-purchase their cancelled itineraries at the new, higher prices, but I'm not sure the presence or absence of those reports would change how I see this situation either way.)
With respect to the equities of the situation, I respectfully disagree that they favor KE/Vayama/etc. This fare isn't a "mistake" in the sense that some hapless clerk omitted a zero somewhere. This is a situation in which airlines denominated the prices of their tickets in a particular currency, and then fell asleep at the switch while that currency lost value relative to other, major international currencies. Other corporations and individuals who do business transnationally get burned by such foreign currency fluctuations all the time. Why should airlines and travel agents be any different?
If anything, airlines and travel agents should be held to a higher standard: they need to deal with forex issues on a basically constant basis, and they need to handle those issues responsibly. Obviously, the airlines and travel agents involved here have proven incapable of handling such issues responsibly. They need to pay the price for their mistake if they're to have any reason to behave more responsibly going forward.
I agree, of course, that there's no private right of action under the DOT regs. But the whole point of having a regulatory scheme like this is that it should work without needing a private right of action. The goal here should be to compel KE and Vayama to behave carefully and responsibly, not to compensate individual consumers because they deserve it.
May 6, 2012, 2:18 am
#2342
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: BRU / SCQ / LUX
Programs: Iberia, BAEC GOLD/ Priority Club : ROYAL Amb / Miles and More: SEN
Posts: 913
the new DOT provisions seem fairly watertight! Which is good news... although how soon there will be a ruling/resolution is the main concern. If you were travelling in the next few weeks this might be a problem... tickets might remain cancelled for a while.
What happens then? Well you are generally under an obligation to mitigate your losses under contract law (although to what extent these DOT provisions overrule contract law is to be seen).
If you have non-cancelable/non-refundable tickets and hotels already booked, you will get those back. But how about if you are yet to book those? And the date you purchase those is after the notice of cancellation (even if that later turns out to be invalid).
While something is in dispute it is generally not a good idea to keep outlaying expenses.
The only real get out I can see in all of the new DOT rules is the issue about when parties have paid the 'amount agreed upon'.
How will this be interpreted? Could it be open to argue that the buyer would have reason to suspect the seller would not have agreed upon this price if they had been aware of it? could you argue this round of mistake fares is similar to others where the difference between the 'mistake' fare and the lowest available via another carrier is only a few hundred dollars? (for example the BA mistake ticket fare which I think was $555 in coach, when a third tier airline was offering coach for around $700 IIRC). In those cases it might well be seen as a legitimate competitive discount.
I think however that argument is a bit of a long shot. But... the DOT rules don't seem to incorporate some of the principles of fairness which may come into play in determining contract disputes. This might be open to challenge.
What happens then? Well you are generally under an obligation to mitigate your losses under contract law (although to what extent these DOT provisions overrule contract law is to be seen).
If you have non-cancelable/non-refundable tickets and hotels already booked, you will get those back. But how about if you are yet to book those? And the date you purchase those is after the notice of cancellation (even if that later turns out to be invalid).
While something is in dispute it is generally not a good idea to keep outlaying expenses.
The only real get out I can see in all of the new DOT rules is the issue about when parties have paid the 'amount agreed upon'.
How will this be interpreted? Could it be open to argue that the buyer would have reason to suspect the seller would not have agreed upon this price if they had been aware of it? could you argue this round of mistake fares is similar to others where the difference between the 'mistake' fare and the lowest available via another carrier is only a few hundred dollars? (for example the BA mistake ticket fare which I think was $555 in coach, when a third tier airline was offering coach for around $700 IIRC). In those cases it might well be seen as a legitimate competitive discount.
I think however that argument is a bit of a long shot. But... the DOT rules don't seem to incorporate some of the principles of fairness which may come into play in determining contract disputes. This might be open to challenge.
:-)
May 6, 2012, 2:37 am
#2343
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: AMS
Programs: KL PFL; BA Gold; A3 Silver; EY Silver; SU Silver
Posts: 2,488
Both of these are untrue. Any airline involved as operating or marketing carrier can plate the ticket. True that in most cases the carrier for the first sub-zone or TC crossing will be issuing it but at times it is impossible (like TC crossing airline can't ticket the other airline's flight but vv it works, etc) thus you have airlines issuing tickets for other airlines' fares. Not as rare as you might think.
May 6, 2012, 3:16 am
#2344
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: BCN-BUE-PSA-GRU
Programs: BA Gold - A3 Gold - FB Gold - IHG Plat - SPG Gold -Hyatt Platinum
Posts: 1,581
Forgive my newbie ignorance, but this is a question for those of you who got cheap tickets out of Rangoon. Are you guys really planning to fly to Rangoon to make use of this offer? Wouldn't the cost of getting there offset the benefits accrued from obtaining the cheap fare?
In short, what do you stand to gain (from a mileage run perspective) from this deal?
In short, what do you stand to gain (from a mileage run perspective) from this deal?
There are around 2.5 billion people living not more than 4/5 hours away from Myanmar so the answer is yes.
Last edited by heramato; May 6, 2012 at 4:18 am
May 6, 2012, 3:18 am
#2345
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: London, UK
Posts: 5,656
Question - has KE filed new fares from RGN to (for example) LAX, so that the price of a new ticket could be included in any complaint / legal action?
Presumably they won't want to stop all ticketing from there entirely and they will come back at some point. If we can show that they are still offering to carry passengers at this new and higher rate, then that is exactly a post-purchase fare increase in line with what the DOT envisaged. For those planning to go with the small claims court route, it would also put a monetary value on your claim i.e the cost of a new ticket for the same route.
Presumably they won't want to stop all ticketing from there entirely and they will come back at some point. If we can show that they are still offering to carry passengers at this new and higher rate, then that is exactly a post-purchase fare increase in line with what the DOT envisaged. For those planning to go with the small claims court route, it would also put a monetary value on your claim i.e the cost of a new ticket for the same route.
May 6, 2012, 3:42 am
#2346
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: YVR
Programs: AC SE, BA silver
Posts: 2,906
I'm not a lawyer but this does seem to be different from other mistake fares in the past, since it wasn't a mistake at all!
The documentation posted upthread made it clear that IATA alerted the airlines to the impending devaluation of the MMK and IATA's own fares were pulled, after which fares priced according to the old exchange rate were still available for several days on many airlines. So it seems pretty clear that this was due to a combination of an unusual event (100-fold devaluation of MMK overnight) with negligence on the airlines' part in not updating the fares in a timely manner.
It is very different from a situation from where someone forgets a 0 or enters the wrong currency when uploading a new fare on a specific airline between specific markets.
The documentation posted upthread made it clear that IATA alerted the airlines to the impending devaluation of the MMK and IATA's own fares were pulled, after which fares priced according to the old exchange rate were still available for several days on many airlines. So it seems pretty clear that this was due to a combination of an unusual event (100-fold devaluation of MMK overnight) with negligence on the airlines' part in not updating the fares in a timely manner.
It is very different from a situation from where someone forgets a 0 or enters the wrong currency when uploading a new fare on a specific airline between specific markets.
May 6, 2012, 3:43 am
#2347
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: midway between EDI and DND
Programs: BA Gold, AA Plat for Life, ex BD Gld (RIP)
Posts: 624
May 6, 2012, 4:15 am
#2348
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: PRG, DRS, VIE
Programs: Marriott Titanium, BA Gold, A3 Gold
Posts: 939
Confused
I wish to bring up an old topic when it was mentioned above "Plus no changes now that the fare is pulled".
I suppose that "the fare is pulled" means that the fare is not available anymore.
But "Plus no changes now", does this means that my ticket cannot be changed anymore even after outbound has been flown?
As I believe all the airlines are now aware of this "glitch" now, so does it comply with FT's rule to call the airline to check my booking now? The reason being that I need to make plans to get to RGN from another corner of the world.
Disclaimer: I have not called the airline yet!!!
I suppose that "the fare is pulled" means that the fare is not available anymore.
But "Plus no changes now", does this means that my ticket cannot be changed anymore even after outbound has been flown?
As I believe all the airlines are now aware of this "glitch" now, so does it comply with FT's rule to call the airline to check my booking now? The reason being that I need to make plans to get to RGN from another corner of the world.
Disclaimer: I have not called the airline yet!!!
I am still not getting why,after flying first segment RGN-BKK of let's say RGN-BKK-AMS-JFK, I would not be able to add stopover as fare rules states "unlimited stopovers" and "free changes" and would trigger repricing?
I plan on having stopovers in Europe on each ticket.
Effectively, I am on 2 stopovers right now, in IST on the HKG-IST-LAX and in ICN on the PRG-NOU deals, where the rules are similar, though TK fare had stopover for a fee.
May 6, 2012, 5:06 am
#2349
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: AU
Programs: former Olympic Airways Gold (yeah - still proud of that!)
Posts: 14,406
I would think under normal circumstances however, when the fare is likely to be the same, there would be no major penalty or increase. But may be different for these tickets.
May 6, 2012, 5:15 am
#2350
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 4,859
I am still not getting why,after flying first segment RGN-BKK of let's say RGN-BKK-AMS-JFK, I would not be able to add stopover as fare rules states "unlimited stopovers" and "free changes" and would trigger repricing?
I plan on having stopovers in Europe on each ticket.
Effectively, I am on 2 stopovers right now, in IST on the HKG-IST-LAX and in ICN on the PRG-NOU deals, where the rules are similar, though TK fare had stopover for a fee.
After flying the first segment though you should be able to change the return for example, and any other flights with connections less then 24h.
The TK and AF fares AFAIR had specific routing rules w/o a HIP check.
Last edited by Lack; May 6, 2012 at 5:25 am
May 6, 2012, 5:26 am
#2351
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Canada
Programs: UA*1K MM SK EBG LATAM BL
Posts: 23,309
For someone that has supposedly 4MM, how do you not know the difference between an interline partner and a mileage partner...
Anyway,
I booked YYZ-YUL-DOH-PVG-BKK-RGN as a UA 60k J award plus $102. Looking forward to QR
Hope I wont be having to redeposit this.
Anyway,
I booked YYZ-YUL-DOH-PVG-BKK-RGN as a UA 60k J award plus $102. Looking forward to QR
Hope I wont be having to redeposit this.
May 6, 2012, 5:27 am
#2352
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: YYZ-HKT-CWL
Programs: aeroplan E .HH.
Posts: 994
Canceled by Vayama 6may still holding Amex funds
May 6, 2012, 5:29 am
#2353
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: PRG, DRS, VIE
Programs: Marriott Titanium, BA Gold, A3 Gold
Posts: 939
It may depend if you need to reissue the ticket. If it needs reissuing then there may be a reprice. That's fairly standard.
I would think under normal circumstances however, when the fare is likely to be the same, there would be no major penalty or increase. But may be different for these tickets.
I would think under normal circumstances however, when the fare is likely to be the same, there would be no major penalty or increase. But may be different for these tickets.
)MPM according to EF is 11296 and the longest route I have is RGN-KUL-LHR-NYC, which according to GC is 11092. Assuming the numbers are correct, I should be ok and the ticket would not need to be repriced, right?
STOPOVERS UNLIMITED FREE STOPOVERS PERMITTED ON THE PRICING
UNIT.
HIP/MILEAGE EXCEPTIONS NO HIP OR MILEAGE EXCEPTIONS APPLY.
VOLUNTARY CHANGES
AFTER DEPARTURE OF JOURNEY AND WITHIN TICKET VALIDITY
CERTAIN DOMESTIC REISSUE PROVISIONS MAY BE OVERRIDDEN
BY THOSE OF DL INTERNATIONAL FARES
NO CHARGE FOR REISSUE CHARGE HIGHEST FEE OF ALL CHANGED
FARE COMPONENTS AND
REPRICE USING CURRENTLY TKTD FARE
PROVIDED ALL OF THE FOLLOWING CONDITIONS ARE MET-
1. NO CHANGE TO 1ST FARE COMPONENT/FARE BREAKS
2. SAME FARE ON 1ST FARE COMPONENT IS USED
3. WHEN NO INTL COUPONS REMAIN - ALL NEW TRAVEL
MUST BE DOMESTIC
4. FULLY FLOWN FARE NOT REPRICED TO FURTHER POINT
5. AF/DL/KL FARES ARE USED
6. ALL RULE AND BOOKING CODE PROVISIONS ARE MET
EXCEPT ACCOMPANIED TRAVEL
7. ADV RES IS MEASURED FROM ORIGINAL TKT DATE TO
DEPARTURE OF PRICING UNIT
OR -
REPRICE USING FARES IN EFFECT WHEN TKT WAS ISSUED
PROVIDED ALL OF THE FOLLOWING CONDITIONS ARE MET-
1. WHEN NO INTL COUPONS REMAIN - ALL NEW TRAVEL
MUST BE DOMESTIC
2. FULLY FLOWN FARE NOT REPRICED TO FURTHER POINT
3. AF/DL/KL FARES ARE USED
4. ALL RULE AND BOOKING CODE PROVISIONS ARE MET
EXCEPT ACCOMPANIED TRAVEL
5. ADV RES IS MEASURED FROM ORIGINAL TKT DATE TO
DEPARTURE OF PRICING UNIT
OR -
CHANGES NOT PERMITTED/REFUND TKT-ANY REMAINING AMT
WILL APPLY TO NEW TKT
REFUND VIA ORIGINAL FORM OF PAYMENT
ENDORSEMENT BOX - HIGHER NON-REF AMT AND NEW
ENDORSEMENTS.
Last edited by honzeek_cz; May 6, 2012 at 5:45 am Reason: new info
May 6, 2012, 5:57 am
#2354
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Paris, France
Programs: UA LT Gold, Air France Platinum Ulti, AA 4MM EXP, SPG Lifetime Plat, Hyatt Globalist, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 725
Since I am traveling in June I booked my positioning flight as well for 80K UA Miles CDG-ZRH-BKK-RGN LX/C-LX/F-TG/C
Hope it all works out
Hope it all works out
May 6, 2012, 6:38 am
#2355
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,259
If you have a ticket that has not been cancelled my strongest recommendation is to make no changes to it and fly it as ticketed. These tickets will not be changeable online and any time a person looks at your ticket they can see the fare paid. Regardless of DOT rules, are you going to argue with an airline agent in kul or CDG or FRA or LHR when they cancel your ticket? Avoiding a human eye is the best strategy here.
Of course, not flying the last segment of a ticketed reservation is a different story. No one can force you to fly if you don't want to, as long as you're willing to risk adverse action if you're caught.
Of course, not flying the last segment of a ticketed reservation is a different story. No one can force you to fly if you don't want to, as long as you're willing to risk adverse action if you're caught.