sbm12

This is precisely what structuring looks like and almost certainly will set off a flag if the teller is paying attention. Read examples 2 and 4 in the FINCEN guide: http://www.fincen.gov/whatsnew/pdf/CTRPamphletBW.pdf.

pierre mclopez

Gosh.....if we could combine I'm terribly grieving with http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/ameri...off-cards.html, we're talking award-winning docu-melodrama.

thehawk75

I'd actually like someone to challenge this structuring nonsense. From a philosophical stand point, a CTR is a violation of privacy. Granted the days of privacy for the people and transparency for the peoples servant government have long been reversed. Even if the law had basis back in the 70's, the trigger point hasn't changed at all (hint, about $10K in 1970 could have bought a modest house in a good working class neighborhood). Thus by extension of inflation, many more folks have lost privacy in this regard.

I've always hated the argument by authority figures 'if you haven't done anything wrong, then you have nothing to worry about, just submit to this intrusion of your privacy so that you can help us capture the real criminals'. There have been countless times throughout history where those who submitted conveniently became criminals.

A very loose comparison, but, when you are pulled over for speeding, and the cop asks you 'do you know how fast you were going', do you answer truthfully?

Perhaps at a different time in the history of this country you could have admitted that you knew you were speeding by about 10 MPH and the cop would have respected you for this, however, that is but a distant memory, and popularized by old Hollywood movies. You would be foolish to admit to such a thing. Cop will note that you admitted to the speed you were going and issue you the summons anyway. You've effectively waived your 5th amendment right.

Back to this whole structuring argument. What is the 'law' doesn't necessarily make it right or moral. There could by a myriad reasons why one does not want to make a deposit over $10K, one of which might be to avoid a CTR. And the reason to avoid a CTR might be nothing more than just to want to maintain privacy in a very non-private world.

For the record, I've never split a deposit. And it's not because I don't care about the CTR. I actually want them to fill it out for me. I hope to help overwhelm the bureaucracy with excess data in hope to emphasize the the fact that CTR's do not catch actual money launderers, but just erode law abiding citizens privacy. I figure a way I can to help maintain my fellow citizens privacy is generate a bunch of pointless reports and contribute too data overload. Also, who knows, maybe if one day the USA completes it's transformation into the USSA, I'd prefer to have a well established file of pointless CTRs that mean nothing, thus for the day when I actually want to ex-patriot myself from this place, a few extra CTRs on that day won't look like much, and perhaps I'll have more ease in taking my hard earned (and legally earned) money with me without having to pay some tithe to someone in a uniform or worse forfeit all what is mine when I leave.

At any rate, I digress...what is, is.

Right now the law can (and likely will) make an example out of you if you structure your deposits, continue to do so at your own risk.

Moderators, feel free to move this to OMNI if you don't want to read it here.

smcgrath12

Care to explain why you consider my post/warning on the Amex thread as "melodrama"? I was certainly not making any emotional appeal to anybody nor was it an imaginary staged performance.

Andy2

I appreciate the link and it provides useful reading. I think there are some important distinctions between these examples and what I do. Note that in the examples, the "criminal" had more than $10,000 in possession at a given time. I believe the $7,500 is a little too close to $10,000 for comfort, so I will use my transactions as an example.

1. I have been purchasing $5,000 a week. I don't want to purchase more than $5,000 at a time for some specific reasons.

A. I have them delivered to the office and the UPS lady makes a comment or two regarding the weight. More than two boxes would irritate her. Plus, more than two packages would simply take up too much space in the delivery area.

B. I do not want cash laying around and I deposit as soon as I can. I have identified 5-6 banks that I can make deposits at during a long lunch. As I have stated previously, two of the banks have requested that I not deposit more than $1,000 per week. So I break up my deposits in increments of $1,000 at 5-6 different banks. There aren't more than 5 banks in my lunchtime walking area and I don't really have time to do more than 5-6 deposits on a long lunchtime anyway. I have to go back and forth to the office to load the coins since the laptop bag will only hold $2,000.

C. I wish to use different credit cards for each $5,000 transaction. As has been discussed before, if too much is placed on any one credit card, I run the risk of the card being cancelled. Plus I have the desire to diversify my miles/points accumulation among different programs, so I want to use a different card every time I purchase $5,000.

So if I buy $5,000 a week to improve the circulation of these coins and I deposit $5,000 per week, never having $10,000 in my possession at one time, how is this structuring in the examples you cite? I do not know that each of my orders will be accepted, nor do I know that this program will continue.

I admit I don't fully understand the structuring laws, so feel free to criticize or enlighten me.

Clincher

I appreciate the link as well.
Hmmm... here is how a laymen sees it.
What John and Jane are doing is structuring. What John and Jane may be trying to hide as they structure their deposits may the reason for prosecution.
Buying coins within your means, depositing in a bank account, and using this to pay off a credit card does not seem to fit the definition of structuring. However, if 'rinse and repeat' is your practise they certainly have a right to look even deeper into your activity.

CTR was set up to prevent fraud and money laundering; any financial transaction which generates an asset or a value as the result of an illegal act, which may involve actions such as tax evasion or false accounting. -wikipedia
I just don't see that buying coins from a government agency, which allows nearly 25K to be purchased with a credit card on which a person has a credit limit well over that, is suspicious activity worthy of prosecution.

Seems the worse that can happen if you are practicing 'rinse and repeat' is the credit card company calls and says we don't want you as a customer anymore. And bad for credit rating.

Please, all you financial wizards and lawyers, confirm no one is going to jail for any activity described in this thread. Unless, of course the extra attention reveals some other illegal activity. As thehawk says, 'if you haven't done anything wrong, then you have nothing to worry about

pierre mclopez

Nothing personal. Just my wry,twisted humor.....madly in love and Amex cuts off my dollar coins. Down so far it looks like up. Sub-Shakespeare FF tragedy.

Chasey would understand.

leisure32

knock on wood, but I've had nothing but great experiences with them and I've been a customer for over 15 years from both a business and personal account perspective

chimmy826

I wish I could agree with you, but I used to work for a quasi-government agency and used to file SARs each and every day, so I can say with a good deal of certainty that I have more than average knowledge in the area. And though you may be right in that CTRs themselves don't capture a good deal of criminals, SARs do. Because so many folks are worried about having the CTR filled out, they evade the law and instead have SARs filed on them because of their suspicious looking activity. That's when the investigations begin.

chimmy826

I agree with you. I don't think you are structuring. But even though you are not structuring, it could appear that you are structuring. I wouldn't sweat it either way.

Carl Johnson

You're not structuring or coming anywhere close to it. You don't HAVE more than $5000 in a week, and for each deposit, you take in either as much as they will take, or as much as you can carry.

Structuring is not the mere making deposits of less than $10,000. Structuring is breaking up your deposits with the intent of avoiding having a CTR filed.

Don't worry about it.

And what do you eat, that walking around during your lunch hour between your office and 5 or 6 different banks carrying 40 pounds of coins is something you can do with no problem?

luv2buynfly

How many miles does it take to buy a "Get Out of Jail Free" Card?

Or maybe AA Lifetime Plat gives you one free? (undocumented tidbit?)

Get out of Jail Free Card

mrpickles

I AGREE. And LLM made me the king of coins so my word is final.

thehawk75

Here's the problem...

in civilized company (much earlier in this thread) we all agreed to not brag about our coin churning.

You shared with us your 178 boxes story, and... well... good for you.

I am certain you have done more.

I as many others, have simply not shared our total total purchases/deposits with the forum.

In total, if we want to put tape measures up to our groin and take measurement, although never having done 178 X 10 X 250 at one time, I've certainly gone well above that in total, more than double, well more, close to triple... and in fact... could go higher (as I'm sure you could as well), I just simply find the CC funding bank accounts a much easier game.

At any rate, I did enjoy your photos. That was cool. I wish I had taken a few... especially the time when my 18 month old daughter thought to help me out by suggesting to carry 'more' (i.e. a 'box of $2500...not $250, $2500) in my arms into the bank when I already had $10,500 in my back pack (and after struggling with it, anchored on my shoulders/back). At this time daddy likes to continue the myth that he is the strongest man in the world...

mrpickles

I never made any such agreement so don't include me when you state "we all agreed...." what nonsence!

Funding bank accounts IS MUCH EASIER and as far as that goes I have only barely touched 200k in the last month so in that arena you can be the king of bank accounts. My real money is tied up in trust funds.