Flying Lawyer

It becomes fraud the very moment you buy the ticket with the INTENTION not to use it for a flight but only pretend that you want to fly to get other benefits you would normally not be entitled to. It is neither the act of buying the ticket nor the act of returning it but the combination of both linked by the INTENTION.

Ok, some will now ask, who will ever make evidence of this intention. This is another issue. But if you confess this story, it becomes fraud.

BenjaminNYC

Sorry, I disagree. What you describe is the "old FlyerTalk", IMHO. When FT started and up until a few years ago, it was all about "beating the system". Now, honestly, FT has a *lot* more real business travelers who care about good service vs. upgrading mistake fares and "gaming the system".

This "new FT" is, in my opinion, far more useful and interesting. ^

roundtheworld

I would go one step further.. its not about gaming the system or beating it. It is about knowing the rules and using them to your advantage... anything else can screw you, as we have seen with flamboyant1 when he was kicked out of the FCT/FCL in FRA.... If you are gaming the system, or beating it(bending and breaking the rules) then sooner or later will get into trouble...

It's the same thing with the TSA... everyone knows the liquid stuff is stupid, so why provoke the TSA guys with silly little bags written something insulting on them... in Europe this can get oyu into trouble as free speech is defined as free as long oyu are not insulting ...

anyway. On the one hand I think it was cool, on the other hand the story is BS as:

The lounge is at B44
The lounge is a Business lounge and not Senator
You can use the lounge as an arriving passenger if oyu hold a *A BP and a *G card. (It doesn't say departing.....)
B44 is non Schengen, assuming he went out and in through the B security line he would have NOT gotten in with a domestic (Schengen) BP



So somewhere along the logic the story is wrong.

BenjaminNYC

I can say without hesitation that the OP was in upgraded C on UA, meaning no UA Arrivals access and no *G access to LH lounges. LH may allow their own F and C pax into the lounges on arrival, but they don't for UA (as they shouldn't); *G access is for departures only.

Hence kevinsac's 'need' to defraud Lufthansa. I know they won't and probably couldn't from a practicality perspective, but I REALLY wish some airline would go after the people on this board that play these kind of games. It just makes it harder on the rest of legitimate business travelers.

At least QF took care of the huge group in the Qantas Club that was essentially steling from the club. ^

Lennart

Where in the fare rules does it say that you actually have to use the ticket? As a matter of fact, a refundable ticket you do not have to use. That is the whole idea of it. You buy it and you can fully decide whether you want to use it, just hold it for a while b/c you are speculating on rising airfares. Whatever, but the whole idea of a refundable ticket is that you might not use it. The question is why is still refundable after the BP was printed?

What about T mobile contracts? I'm sure T mobile believes you are actually going to use them and thus gives you Miles. If you actually plan on just selling the phones on ebay and collecting the miles and even getting the monthly fee waived b/c you collaborate with a dealer, isn't that breaking the intention that T mobile supposes you have? I really don't see a difference. None of the rules explicitly require this intention.

SebFra

Fully agree. Furthermore, extremely stupid to tell all the details here, because:
1. Lufthansa will easily find out which ticket agent it was according day, time, amount and he will run into big trouble - although he only wanted to help you
2. Assuming that Lufthansa didn't recognise yet this 'whole' they now might have much more information.

Again, how stupid is it to tell this story here. For what?

flysurfer

Bragging about skinning cats.

Rudi

I repeat (and I am not sorry for that double posting) what I did already post on aug-4-2002:

post or not, share or not: (secret?) tips

From time to time, there are 'heated' discussions on this board, when tips are shared/promoted how to maximise our frequent flier profits.

Often these discussions are held in specific threads promoting such a maximised 'profit-taking'.

I myself am in favor of sharing on this board. Mainly for the following reasons:

* Fairness to Randy and his/our board here is, in my opinion, to publish/post openly here.
* Fairness to our fellow FlyerTalkers here on this/our board is, in my opinion, to share as much informations here on this board as possible (and as legally ok).
* Fairness to the airlines: if loopholes really harm them, then I don't mind if they get to know. They will anyway know if many consumers take chances.
* Fairness on this board: don't attack (the) poster(s) - discuss/argue the arguments pro and contra.

I have extensivly followed that open-post-policy in the past (mostly about LH miles&more loopholes that I did profit from, sometimes also about fomer swissair loopholes) and have never been punished for doing so - to the contrary I did receive compliments from both airlines in person for doing so, once I even received a bunch of complimentary bonus miles with an accompanying thank-you email (from Swissair that was, and I did report this on FT too).

My FT aka is even my real first-name, very easy to reckognize for airlines.

Lennart

If LH did not notice this earlier and need FT to tell them about it, they have quite some deeper problems...

redleft

What's the old saying: opinions are like XXXXXXXX, everyone has one and they all sound different.

^ to the OP.
Bragging? I doubt it. To share a way around the system, more likely.

Get over yourselves, people. What the OP did obviously does not meet with the approval of everyone here, as some point or another (other than BJ) we have all done something which bends the rules a little. I think he found an ingenious way of getting into the lounge. Instead of sitting with the masses, he wanted into the lounge. If he asked nicely, what was wrong with warden letting him in as a courtesy?

If the warden had thought it was fraudulous and high treason, she would have called LEO and had him dealt with then.

tommy777

I love it when people who travel on their employers/clients dime look down on UA NC travelers...

The OP didn't do anything illegal and calling it stealing is offending to say the least.. How many times have YOU been screwed by a lounge dragon who doesn't know the rules? "You can not bring a guest, only C pax get free drink chits". The stories on FT are many.. Also, LH is making up it's own rules when they feel like it and break the *Alliance contracts when they don't let *G in to their Senator lounges at some airports. I guess it's stealing when a Senator is using the SAS Scandinavian *G lounges instead of the Business lounges which they are very welcome to all over the SAS system, while SAS *G (and other *Gs) are hushed to the rotten LH business lounges while the Senator lounges are wide open. (happened to me at LIN many times)

The OP bought an F ticket on LH and returned it. How anyone can find that shady, I don't understand. He had bought the ticket and was eligible to enter the lounge.

If the LH lounge dragon had used a little bit of common sense, she would have let the OP wait for his friend in the lounge

BenjaminNYC

What on earth are you talking about? Who's "looking down" on UA NC flyers? I'm just saying that they're not entitled to LH's (or UA's) arrivals facilities.

Regarding who buys the ticket (1) you have no idea, unless you know all of us personally; and (2) it makes no difference whatsoever to this discussion.



She should have broken her employers rules for the OP, who didn't even fly her airline, in the name of "common sense"?

I think you need to get some common sense. @:-)

tcswede

So it is Ok to post if you agree with the OP - and all others should shut up = get over ourselves Great advice

Again - we talk about a SEN lounge in FRA - if you care to search FT - you will find more threads on the quiteness outside the SEN lounges compared to the ZOO going on inside and not the perceived quiteness as posted by the OP.

Give me a break - there are actually places still on this planet where interaction between a service provider and their customers can be resolved without calling in the cavalary = LEO - even if the result is not always the one desired by the customer

Cheers

Thomas

tommy777

I'm not gonna comment on the first part of your post, I just read the thread....

I'm glad you never meet any lounge dragons who breaks the rules in the airlines favor. I meet them pretty often..

(and it looks like others do too: http://flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=683100)

Common sense: "Hi, I just arrived from LAX on UA in business class and I have a friend arriving on a later flight. I'm *G and hope it's not too much trouble for me to wait here until he arrives"

If that's not common sense, I don't know what is...

tcswede

I love the endless discussion on poeple who travel on other people dimes - why should they need to excuse themselves and not voice an opinion ???

There is clearly a reverance on FT for those true travelers who do everything on their own dime - yippee ^ what a great bunch - give them a round of applause (unfortunately there is no smiley for clapping hands...)

But FT is about sharing experiences collected during frequent travel - there is no fine print in lieu of the validity based on who paid for it - even if desired more often than not by some posters.

If your company pays you to be somewhere - than there is a reason more often than not - and if they find that you do not deserve it - then you stay at home. But as long as you are sent places - you have experiences that you can share.

I'll stop here...

Cheers

Thomas