An $8000 "entry fee" for LH Gold lounge
#91
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Capetown
Programs: Marriott Lifetime Plat, IHG and Hilton Diamond, LH SEN, BA Gold
Posts: 10,163
In this case, on the other hand, the ticket is refundable. It is irrelevant that the passenger has checked in and received a boarding pass. Checking in and receiving a boarding pass is not an irrevocable promise to take the flight. On the contrary, the airline's rules completely allow the passenger to cancel the checkin and receive a refund on the ticket. This holds true even after the passenger has used the lounge! (This may be a bad loophole, but it is the rule nonetheless.)
I always use a "thick thumb check" and this is very reliable:
- Would you disclose your plan in details to the contractual counterpart's management (not to a salesgirl)?
- Do you expect the contractual counterpart's management to agree to your plan on full knowledge of the details?
- Are you definitely sure that you are right from an ethical point?
#92
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: BCT. Formerly known as attorney28
Programs: LH HON,BA GGL GfL,Hyatt LT Glob,Mrtt LT P,Hilt LT D,IC Amb,Acc P,GHA Tit,LHW Strlg,Sixt/Av/Hz D/Pres
Posts: 6,819
Wait and see what the BGH will say one day . Just rememeber the "sitting-on-a-train-without-a-ticket-and-not-notifiying-the-conductor-case". It is fraud. Or the "ordering-a-beer-in-a-pub-without-having-the-ability-to-pay-case". It is fraud. It is very simple to alledge without and reasoning that I am "wrong claiming". The German BGH developed a great creativity to define unethical behaviour as fraud. I really do not believe that you would advise your clients - if being asked as professional - that there is no risk. If so, your are a brave guy but should increase your professional indemnity insurance.
As was already pointed out, if you follow the facts as stated by the OP, there was no misrepresentation, and there was no error.
Originally Posted by kevinsac
However, for what it's worth, I acted in full disclosure. Both the ticket agent and the warden(s) knew what I was doing. The ticket agent told me to come to the front of the line when I was ready to return the ticket; she knew I would be back in a few hours and had no intent of flying because I only wanted the ticket for lounge entry. She told me not to stand in the long line.
The lounge warden(s) also knew that I had no intent to fly. Warden 1 refused me entry, according to the rules. She stated I had to have an onward flight. (Skip the first ticket to MUC.) When I presented my Hong Kong ticket at the counter, Warden 1 was busy, so I gave the ticket to Warden 2. She asked if I had any baggage (huh?) and when I replied "No", she offered to check me in. When I asked her not to check me in (did not know if I could still get a refund then), Warden 1 turned to Warden 2 and said "This is the gentlemen who was here a few minutes ago...." and then told her that I only wanted to use the lounge but was not eligible until I had an onward ticket. I specifically told Warden 2 (with Warden 1 listening) that I was returning the ticket upon leaving the lounge. I did not have a boarding pass. They let me in only with an onward ticket and without a boarding pass.
The lounge warden(s) also knew that I had no intent to fly. Warden 1 refused me entry, according to the rules. She stated I had to have an onward flight. (Skip the first ticket to MUC.) When I presented my Hong Kong ticket at the counter, Warden 1 was busy, so I gave the ticket to Warden 2. She asked if I had any baggage (huh?) and when I replied "No", she offered to check me in. When I asked her not to check me in (did not know if I could still get a refund then), Warden 1 turned to Warden 2 and said "This is the gentlemen who was here a few minutes ago...." and then told her that I only wanted to use the lounge but was not eligible until I had an onward ticket. I specifically told Warden 2 (with Warden 1 listening) that I was returning the ticket upon leaving the lounge. I did not have a boarding pass. They let me in only with an onward ticket and without a boarding pass.
Originally Posted by Flying Lawyer
For those who like a quick lesson in German criminal law.
Fraud requires:
* Missrepresentation: At the latest the moment he asked for a boarding pass in the clear intention not to fly and at the very latest he presented the pass to the lounge dragon he conducted a missprepresentation.
Fraud requires:
* Missrepresentation: At the latest the moment he asked for a boarding pass in the clear intention not to fly and at the very latest he presented the pass to the lounge dragon he conducted a missprepresentation.
Originally Posted by Flying Lawyer
* Creating an error: The lounge dragon obviously was in error about his real intentions.
Check facts first - give lessons in law later.
(Moreover, if he had purchased a ticket and had had the boarding pass which entitles him to enter the lounge, he would have had a contractual right to enter the lounge with it, so the "Rechtswidrigkeit des Vermgensvorteils" would have been missing at the time the boarding pass would be presented to the lounge dragon. And if you want to construe fraud at the moment of the ticket purchase, there was no misrepresentation to the LH ticket agent either (and no error), if he expressly tells her he only wants the ticket to get into the lounge and that he'll return it later.)
#93
Suspended
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,229
Oh boy
I think the OP has done the only thing he could do at this instance.
He has played them, as (assuming) learned on this forum.
So, whats the problem?? He has been honest about his intentions to the sales person as well as the lounge dragon.
If the purchase incurred fees, who cares what he does with his money.
Did he steal from the lounge and/or LH? No, he was holding a valid ticket.
All he did was using a little loop hole. And the least important one that could ever be in the german / Lufthansa system.
Does one always has oblige the: Tu was man Dir sagt! / Do what you are ordered to!???
I say: well done^
He has played them, as (assuming) learned on this forum.
So, whats the problem?? He has been honest about his intentions to the sales person as well as the lounge dragon.
If the purchase incurred fees, who cares what he does with his money.
Did he steal from the lounge and/or LH? No, he was holding a valid ticket.
All he did was using a little loop hole. And the least important one that could ever be in the german / Lufthansa system.
Does one always has oblige the: Tu was man Dir sagt! / Do what you are ordered to!???
I say: well done^
#94
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Capetown
Programs: Marriott Lifetime Plat, IHG and Hilton Diamond, LH SEN, BA Gold
Posts: 10,163
I fully agree.
(Moreover, if he had purchased a ticket and had had the boarding pass which entitles him to enter the lounge, he would have had a contractual right to enter the lounge with it, so the "Rechtswidrigkeit des Vermögensvorteils" would have been missing at the time the boarding pass would be presented to the lounge dragon.
But honestly, I have to earn some real money now. Some FT'ler know me personally and know who I am - maybe I am too careful based on the type of people and entities I advise - I would never ever take the risk even to advise my clients in a way that they bring themselves in inappropriate situations. And you read from other posters here that LH takes it seriously. So, give any advice you like but be aware that there can be unpleasant consequences.
#95
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: BCT. Formerly known as attorney28
Programs: LH HON,BA GGL GfL,Hyatt LT Glob,Mrtt LT P,Hilt LT D,IC Amb,Acc P,GHA Tit,LHW Strlg,Sixt/Av/Hz D/Pres
Posts: 6,819
Ok, next time you buy a ticket tell the airlines sales agent you just want to buy it for the sake of getting a meal in the FCL and you have no intention to fly at all and and tell the girl at check in that you don't want to fly but just want to check in for that very same reason and wait whether or not she will check you in. If not, you should reconsider your thoughts.
But honestly, I have to earn some real money now. Some FT'ler know me personally and know who I am - maybe I am too careful based on the type of people and entities I advise - I would never ever take the risk even to advise my clients in a way that they bring themselves in inappropriate situations. And you read from other posters here that LH takes it seriously. So, give any advice you like but be aware that there can be unpleasant consequences.
But honestly, I have to earn some real money now. Some FT'ler know me personally and know who I am - maybe I am too careful based on the type of people and entities I advise - I would never ever take the risk even to advise my clients in a way that they bring themselves in inappropriate situations. And you read from other posters here that LH takes it seriously. So, give any advice you like but be aware that there can be unpleasant consequences.
#96
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Capetown
Programs: Marriott Lifetime Plat, IHG and Hilton Diamond, LH SEN, BA Gold
Posts: 10,163
I did not say that I buy the full story. According to the rules you do not get lounge access with a ticket only.
Again an error but let me quote from your post:
Thats my personal position at this moment. I have my clear opinion on the issue and the given fact that at least two lawyers keep discussion on this shows what I personally never would do. But my hourly rate is to high to continue this interesting discussion. But I promise you, I will present the case either to my students or when I sit next time on the panel in the second exam. Can be an interesting discussion there, too.
Just to make it clear, since you seem to have misunderstood this as well, I am not giving any advice to act like the OP did. I merely pointed out that your insistance that the OP committed fraud was incorrect, and I see that you seem to have understood this by now, as you are unable or unwilling to defend your previously stated incorrect legal opinion.
Thats my personal position at this moment. I have my clear opinion on the issue and the given fact that at least two lawyers keep discussion on this shows what I personally never would do. But my hourly rate is to high to continue this interesting discussion. But I promise you, I will present the case either to my students or when I sit next time on the panel in the second exam. Can be an interesting discussion there, too.
#97
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: MUC/LAX/SMV
Programs: LH, UA, BD, AA, NW, FB, NH, AC, Sixt, Hertz, Avis, *W, HH, Marriott, PC, Leaders Club, AMEX
Posts: 12,406
#98
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: BCT. Formerly known as attorney28
Programs: LH HON,BA GGL GfL,Hyatt LT Glob,Mrtt LT P,Hilt LT D,IC Amb,Acc P,GHA Tit,LHW Strlg,Sixt/Av/Hz D/Pres
Posts: 6,819
Thats my personal position at this moment. I have my clear opinion on the issue and the given fact that at least two lawyers keep discussion on this shows what I personally never would do. But my hourly rate is to high to continue this interesting discussion. But I promise you, I will present the case either to my students or when I sit next time on the panel in the second exam. Can be an interesting discussion there, too.
Oh, and I personally wouldn't do it either.
And your hourly rate is of no concern to anyone here at FT, and neither does the mention of it impress anyone .
#99
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 7
T-Mobiles&more
I always use a "thick thumb check" and this is very reliable:
- Would you disclose your plan in details to the contractual counterpart's management (not to a salesgirl)?
- Do you expect the contractual counterpart's management to agree to your plan on full knowledge of the details?
- Are you definitely sure that you are right from an ethical point?
Would you have the balls to take that business model to T-Mobiles's board?
#100
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Capetown
Programs: Marriott Lifetime Plat, IHG and Hilton Diamond, LH SEN, BA Gold
Posts: 10,163
But I would certainly tell T-Mobile that I will rent 16 lines and pay the monthly rent and I will fulfill every contractual obligation until the bitter end. Nothing more but nothing less. In our lounge case, the disclosure will certainly not be to that detail...
Last edited by Flying Lawyer; Apr 18, 2007 at 3:33 am
#101
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Capetown
Programs: Marriott Lifetime Plat, IHG and Hilton Diamond, LH SEN, BA Gold
Posts: 10,163
I was not meant to impress somebody and I did not give you any figure, did I? Difficult to construe an intention to impress with no information. I just wanted to comment on your absurd approach that I change my opinion just because you consider me to bu "unable or unwilling to defend" my "previously stated incorrect legal opinion.". Period.
#102
Original Member
Join Date: May 1998
Location: CH-3823 Wengen Switzerland
Programs: miles&more, MileagePlus
Posts: 27,041
But I promise you, I will present the case either to my students or when I sit next time on the panel in the second exam.
you are aware, that legally this 'case', having been posted here (and applying the general terms of FT that we all agreed to once) is © of FlyerTalk?
(but never mind: I am interested in the outcome: please post here afterwards. Thank you).
you are aware, that legally this 'case', having been posted here (and applying the general terms of FT that we all agreed to once) is © of FlyerTalk?
(but never mind: I am interested in the outcome: please post here afterwards. Thank you).
#104
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Capetown
Programs: Marriott Lifetime Plat, IHG and Hilton Diamond, LH SEN, BA Gold
Posts: 10,163
#105
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: MUC/LAX/SMV
Programs: LH, UA, BD, AA, NW, FB, NH, AC, Sixt, Hertz, Avis, *W, HH, Marriott, PC, Leaders Club, AMEX
Posts: 12,406