Why does Lufthansa hub in FRA/MUC, and not Berlin and/or Hamburg?
Apr 16, 2018, 9:59 am
#46
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Apr 16, 2018, 11:42 am
#47
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ROFL
Frankfurt is a nice market town with 730k inhabitants and certainly number 5 populationwise in Germany. The Frankfurt metro region (even including Mainz, Offenbach and Wiesbaden) does not make Frankfurt anything like Berlin, Rhein-Ruhr or Hamburg. There ain't any German cities comparable with Chicago or Seoul
Apr 16, 2018, 12:23 pm
#48
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IME the "I don't really understand the topic, but based on my experiences in only a very loosely related topic, shouldn't it be like this?" factor.
Apr 17, 2018, 1:44 am
#49
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Again, at what times do you fly out and what is the evidence for that? Sure, there are times when it takes you 3 minutes to walk from the curb through security to sit down in from of the gate agent ready to board. But it can also be 20 minutes at the A gates and even more at C or D.
Apr 17, 2018, 2:08 am
#50
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Very well said! Because of said differences it could have been a smart move though not to build BER next to SXF but indeed somewhere the prairie e.g. Sperenberg Airfield and connect it with a high-speed train to the city. Not so much trouble with noise pollution and easier to develop than FRA. But it is what it is and we have to live with it. FRA and MUC are our hubs and as far as I can tell together with the other European hubs this works pretty well for most business travellers. Could it be better? Of course! Would BER make for a better hub? I highly doubt it.
Apr 17, 2018, 3:01 am
#51
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I think the longest flight from TXL currently is to PEK on HU; not daily though. AC flies to YYZ in the summer which is also slightly longer than EWR, too.
Do you really live in Berlin as your profile states and do you fly out of TXL regularly? Sorry to ask so bluntly but your answers really make me wonder. It is a pain to get to TXL during rush hour which in Berlin is basically all day. I prefer to get to any airport as late as possible but at TXL this can be a big gamble as traffic is rather unpredictable particularly in the area around the airport. It can take you anywhere from 10 to 45 minutes to get to TXL from the city center, if you go there from Wannsee, Friedrichshain, Köpenick or somewhere else if can easily be significantly more as traffic on the A100, A113, or A115 can be horrific. So if you want to play it safe you may (read "have to") end up being at the airport 1h early just because there are regular situations were you need this 1 hour.
Again, at what times do you fly out and what is the evidence for that? Sure, there are times when it takes you 3 minutes to walk from the curb through security to sit down in from of the gate agent ready to board. But it can also be 20 minutes at the A gates and even more at C or D.
Do you really live in Berlin as your profile states and do you fly out of TXL regularly? Sorry to ask so bluntly but your answers really make me wonder. It is a pain to get to TXL during rush hour which in Berlin is basically all day. I prefer to get to any airport as late as possible but at TXL this can be a big gamble as traffic is rather unpredictable particularly in the area around the airport. It can take you anywhere from 10 to 45 minutes to get to TXL from the city center, if you go there from Wannsee, Friedrichshain, Köpenick or somewhere else if can easily be significantly more as traffic on the A100, A113, or A115 can be horrific. So if you want to play it safe you may (read "have to") end up being at the airport 1h early just because there are regular situations were you need this 1 hour.
Again, at what times do you fly out and what is the evidence for that? Sure, there are times when it takes you 3 minutes to walk from the curb through security to sit down in from of the gate agent ready to board. But it can also be 20 minutes at the A gates and even more at C or D.
few times in the month I fly at odd hours such as 14:00
Apr 17, 2018, 5:19 am
#53
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Very well said! Because of said differences it could have been a smart move though not to build BER next to SXF but indeed somewhere the prairie e.g. Sperenberg Airfield and connect it with a high-speed train to the city. Not so much trouble with noise pollution and easier to develop than FRA. But it is what it is and we have to live with it. FRA and MUC are our hubs and as far as I can tell together with the other European hubs this works pretty well for most business travellers. Could it be better? Of course! Would BER make for a better hub? I highly doubt it.
Apr 18, 2018, 1:54 am
#55
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Frankfurt: $230bn
Chicago: $563bn
Seoul: $864bn
Not similar in economic strength at all. But what does this even mean? Are you talking about in the context of their country? On an absolute basis? I don't understand what point you are trying to make.
Top of what? Tokyo is not a top world city? Paris isn't either? It may be news to people in Hong Kong that their city isn't a top world city. Would you include Berlin? Sydney? I'm confused.
Apr 18, 2018, 3:37 am
#56
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For LH FRA beat HAM in the 50s and 60s when their longhaul operations restarted. MUC established a nice new greenfield hub airport after a 20 year battle which opened in 1992. LH expanded there rapidly in 1992-2002.
HAM never really tried to expand and offer itself as an alternative to FRA or MUC. I suppose FJS really pushed for MUC to move and by the time HAM thought about it public finance was more directed towards East Germany (which resulted in a great cargo airport in LEJ).
BER, if it would have opened in 2012, would have already been 20 years behind the curve. Since FRA & MUC are not really limited in capacity, LH would have to be really pressed hard to start a 3rd or 4th hub in BER or HAM. So irregardless of the fact that Munich and Frankfurt are no big players in terms of population or perhaps economic activity, the ship has pretty much sailed on the topic of becoming a hub for LH due to a mix of history and being there at the right time.
HAM never really tried to expand and offer itself as an alternative to FRA or MUC. I suppose FJS really pushed for MUC to move and by the time HAM thought about it public finance was more directed towards East Germany (which resulted in a great cargo airport in LEJ).
BER, if it would have opened in 2012, would have already been 20 years behind the curve. Since FRA & MUC are not really limited in capacity, LH would have to be really pressed hard to start a 3rd or 4th hub in BER or HAM. So irregardless of the fact that Munich and Frankfurt are no big players in terms of population or perhaps economic activity, the ship has pretty much sailed on the topic of becoming a hub for LH due to a mix of history and being there at the right time.
Apr 18, 2018, 5:41 am
#57
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BER, if it would have opened in 2012, would have already been 20 years behind the curve. Since FRA & MUC are not really limited in capacity, LH would have to be really pressed hard to start a 3rd or 4th hub in BER or HAM. So irregardless of the fact that Munich and Frankfurt are no big players in terms of population or perhaps economic activity, the ship has pretty much sailed on the topic of becoming a hub for LH due to a mix of history and being there at the right time.
Apr 18, 2018, 7:19 am
#58
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With the new runway for landings, FRA can handle 700k aircraft movements per day without having to push the envelope on pretty much anything (night flight ban or whatever).
T3 is a done deal as well, with the possible exception of the modifications planned for the LCCs (they may have gotten the permit on that, too; I'm not sure, I didn't pay close attention over the last few weeks).
Apr 18, 2018, 8:08 am
#59
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700k per day would mean 486 movements per minute assuming 24h operation From what I heard but I may be wrong here, 700k is the projected max movement per year starting 2020.As we have seen with BER and Stuttgart 21 (two name just two) nothing is done deal until it is actually operating. So I believe it, when I see it. And on top of that, oliver stated that both are "not really limited in capacity". which I doubt. Yes, T3 is likely to come and with 4 runways FRA is pretty efficient but beyond that growth options are certainly limited, at least at FRA.
Last edited by totti; Apr 18, 2018 at 9:40 am
Apr 18, 2018, 9:02 am
#60
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I had dinner with a former Hamburg senator (of the city, not LH) many years ago. His storytelling about the city was legendary, and one of the things he emphasised was that Hamburg was briefly considered for the capital of West Germany after the war. The political elite at the time felt that giving the capital to a major city would weaken the case for eventual unification, Hamburg's Senate had long decided that they did not want to be the capital of Germany anyway (too flashy, too much in-your-face activity). In the same way, Hamburg's Senate never really pushed for a major expansion of HAM, content that that was in Frankfurt. The port was the real pride of the city. And a couple of years ago the citizens voted in a municipal referendum to not bid for the Olympics.