Why does Lufthansa hub in FRA/MUC, and not Berlin and/or Hamburg?

Old Apr 10, 2018, 1:04 am
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Why does Lufthansa hub in FRA/MUC, and not Berlin and/or Hamburg?

It seems like an oversight on their part to, even with two hubs, not have one in the German capital of Berlin. Are slot restrictions a problem, and if so, why did Air Berlin see an opportunity? If it was due to the East/West split, why didnt LH move in after the wall fell? Is there really more premium passenger demand from both Frankfurt and Munich than Berlin? Even so, Frankfurt as a financial hub makes more sense; I dont know what causes so much premium demand for Munich

Anyway, is anyone with more insight than me willing to give an illuminating answer?
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Old Apr 10, 2018, 1:50 am
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If you have ever been to TXL or SXF, you will understand why Lufthansa couldn't make either a hub.

TXL is old, outdated and extremely small, they don't have the space for planes. They don't even have a lounge past security as each gate is separated with their own security. You walk 7 meters from the curb to the check in counter and then another 7 meters to the gate. (In terminal A anyways) Terminal C is simply a large quonset hut where everyone either walks over the runway to get to their planes or takes a bus. The only public transport to TXL is via bus service.

Both airports are simply not equipped to house planes, especially larger aircraft.

Don't get me started with SXF, it's basically a giant Burger King where everyone sits on the floor cause there is absolutely no room.

The longest long-haul I think TXL offers is TXL > EWR, which is once a day with United. Could be totally wrong here!
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Old Apr 10, 2018, 2:00 am
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There aint any need for a further hub in Germany and if so, DUS would probably the more natural choice. Being the capital and being the biggest single city in Germany does not qualify Berlin as a market. The DUS metro area is four times as big as Berlin.
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Old Apr 10, 2018, 2:24 am
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The decision to hub in Frankfurt (and then later in Munich) has both historical and business reasons.
  1. Historical reasons
    After World war 2, German airlines were not allowed to fly into Berlin, because Berlin was not officially a German city, but under control of the four powers that won the war (USA, Russia, UK, France). That prohibited Lufthansa to locate any planes there.
    Also because Germany was divided until 1990, all the action was basically in the democratic and free-market western part. Frankfurt was perfectly located there, as it is right in the middle of West Germany. It also didn't hurt, that the US Armed Forces had a large airbase right next to Frankfurt Airport.
  2. Business Reasons
    While Berlin or Hamburg are Germany's largest cities (Berlin is the largest and Hamburg the second-largest), they lack business strength, especially in their surrounding area. After re-unification, Berlin was mostly devoid of any industry, didn't have any large corporate headquarters and had pretty much no significant economic activity in 100km radius outside the city. This situation has improved over the last 28 years, but Berlin is not the economic powerhouse that Paris is for France or London is for the UK.
    Hamburg was a much more vibrant city in terms of its economy, but its economy is much more maritime-based due to its large international harbor. Also, as Berlin it lacks strong economic activity in its immediate surrounding area.
    So if you look at Frankfurt, do not just see Frankfurt's importance as the financial hub of Germany and Central Europe. You also need to see the economic strength of its "Hinterland", meaning the Rhine-Main-area that includes a radius of 50-100 km around the city center. That covers roughly 5.7 million people (7% of the German population). Now if you add in places like Cologne or Mannheim/Heidelberg/Ludwigshafen (home of BASF, SAP for example), that can reach the FRA airport in about 1-1.5 hours, you have a lot of economic firepower that will power traveller numbers.
    Munich is similar to the Frankfurt story. The city itself is nearly twice as large as Frankfurt and is THE economic powerhouse in Germany housing corporate headquarters of firms like BMW, Allianz, Munich Re, Linde for example. Its "hinterland" is also very active economically, providing ample fodder of private and business travellers. Now add in the area of Salzburg in neighboring Austria, that is much nearer to Munich airport than to Vienna and you have your answer.
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Old Apr 10, 2018, 2:31 am
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TXL was built when The Wall was still up as a "domestic" point-to-point airport. Lufthansa didn't even fly there from anywhere. Until today, no automatic baggage handling and very few of the airbridges capable of handling widebodies. No facilities airside for transiting passengers due to the quirky layout of Terminal A. Hopeless location for a hub.

SXF (which might merge with BER some time in the next few decades) more or less the same.
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Old Apr 10, 2018, 8:27 am
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Originally Posted by tsolaaa
If you have ever been to TXL or SXF, you will understand why Lufthansa couldn't make either a hub.
I was in TXL this weekend and I can only agree with that...
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Old Apr 10, 2018, 8:37 am
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LH might have tried to do something with BER had it opened on time but lets not open that can or Worms 😅
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Old Apr 10, 2018, 9:11 am
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Originally Posted by chris63
LH might have tried to do something with BER had it opened on time but let’s not open that can or Worms ��
But then it was supposed to be an AB hub

Until unification happened, only PA (Pan Am), TW (TWA) , BA, AF, DA (Dan Air) were able to fly to TXL. I think also AB had some charters to PMI as officially then it was a US airline (but memory might not serve me well)...
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Old Apr 10, 2018, 12:09 pm
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Old Apr 10, 2018, 1:22 pm
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Berlin is a total dump, considering how the rest of the country is. Charming dump, but dump still.

Air Berlin could fly into Berlin, as they were operating as "Air Berlin USA", an American airline, before reunification. They only became German in the 90s.

Indeed, BER was supposed to be a hub for AB. Shame it never got finished, I honestly think AB could have survived otherwise.
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Old Apr 10, 2018, 1:41 pm
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Originally Posted by tsolaaa

The longest long-haul I think TXL offers is TXL > EWR, which is once a day with United. Could be totally wrong here!
AB used to fly into TXL from JFK. Took that flight once, I guess it's gone now though haha.
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Old Apr 10, 2018, 5:40 pm
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Originally Posted by tsolaaa
If you have ever been to TXL or SXF, you will understand why Lufthansa couldn't make either a hub.

TXL is old, outdated and extremely small, they don't have the space for planes. They don't even have a lounge past security as each gate is separated with their own security. You walk 7 meters from the curb to the check in counter and then another 7 meters to the gate. (In terminal A anyways) Terminal C is simply a large quonset hut where everyone either walks over the runway to get to their planes or takes a bus. The only public transport to TXL is via bus service.

Both airports are simply not equipped to house planes, especially larger aircraft.

Don't get me started with SXF, it's basically a giant Burger King where everyone sits on the floor cause there is absolutely no room.

The longest long-haul I think TXL offers is TXL > EWR, which is once a day with United. Could be totally wrong here!
actually TXL has a lounge in terminal C after you clear security. TXL is a slot control airport. LH is not interested in developing a hub in Berlin ( even if the new airport is open). The vacuum left by Airberlin is been filled by Aircanada Rouge, Delta, Scoot, Hainan, Qatar and United.
finally Lufthansa attitude towards Berlin resulted in a huge expansion by EasyJet ( Second biggest hub after LGW) and Ryanair/laudamotion.

Finally the airport is fast. You walk 100 meters from the check-in counter to the plane and 50 meters from the plane to immigration and luggage carousel.

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Old Apr 10, 2018, 5:57 pm
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Originally Posted by RolfD


actually TXL has a lounge in terminal C after you clear security. TXL is a slot control airport. LH is not interested in developing a hub in Berlin ( even if the new airport is open). The vacuum left by Airberlin is been filled by Aircanada Rouge, Delta, Scoot, Hainan, Qatar and United.
finally Lufthansa attitude towards Berlin resulted in a huge expansion by EasyJet ( Second biggest hub after LGW) and Ryanair/laudamotion.

Finally the airport is fast. You walk 100 meters from the check-in counter to the plane and 50 meters from the plane to immigration and luggage carousel.

Fast, but there is nothing to do. And therein lies that dilemma, or going really late to these "fast" airports and presuming they will still be fast or you will miss your flight, or going earlier and sitting around having nothing to do.
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Old Apr 11, 2018, 3:21 am
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Originally Posted by s0ssos
Fast, but there is nothing to do. And therein lies that dilemma, or going really late to these "fast" airports and presuming they will still be fast or you will miss your flight, or going earlier and sitting around having nothing to do.
why do you want to go to the airport earlier than you have to? If a recall airports are design to flight from point A to point B, unless you want to buy over price items at the stores or restaurants. finally there are 5 lounges at tegel that you can use before your flight leaves
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Old Apr 11, 2018, 3:39 am
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Originally Posted by RolfD
why do you want to go to the airport earlier than you have to? If a recall airports are design to flight from point A to point B, unless you want to buy over price items at the stores or restaurants. finally there are 5 lounges at tegel that you can use before your flight leaves
Maybe it is different in the US, but there is traffic which can be bad (I guess in Germany trains are pretty reliable), and security (who knoes how long the line can be).

And just relaxing in a nice environment prior to takeoff, taking a shower (giving you extra time that morning)
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