LH Premium Economy : Info from ITB, FT/VFT FAQ, and more
Mar 6, 2014, 9:02 am
#106
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 2,189
If I would have to organize a travel management I always look that the company gets the best value for money.
I think that most of FTers would agree that the full fare Y delivers the worst value in the sky.
Except some short-haul offers if you really have to be at an appointment or presentation and are somewhat a (time-) captive customer.
I think that most of FTers would agree that the full fare Y delivers the worst value in the sky.
Except some short-haul offers if you really have to be at an appointment or presentation and are somewhat a (time-) captive customer.
Mar 6, 2014, 9:07 am
#107
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: OSL/IAH/ZRH (time, not preference)
Programs: UA1K, LH GM, AA EXP->GM
Posts: 38,265
But nothing beats 5.5 Attoparsec!
That is just the unholy alliance of wishful thinking and tricking shareholders into it. You can reach that number easily by further crippling Y-, the way LX is determined to do it. Then coach fares drop by EUR 300 and Y+ can be had for EUR 300 more than today's Y fares. Sounds fair.
That is just the unholy alliance of wishful thinking and tricking shareholders into it. You can reach that number easily by further crippling Y-, the way LX is determined to do it. Then coach fares drop by EUR 300 and Y+ can be had for EUR 300 more than today's Y fares. Sounds fair.
Mar 6, 2014, 9:21 am
#108
Suspended
Join Date: Aug 2008
Programs: Everything is refundable
Posts: 3,727
Would like to agree that the market:
+ would buy the flight in Lufthsansa's great Premium Economy Class for approx. 1.500-2000 Euro ex Germany with some flexibility and the assumption of the new LH product.
Interestingly enough CX made a flash sale some weeks ago for March 2014 which was fastly nearly sold out! The advertised r/t fare from Frankfurt to Chinese airports (not Hong Kong) destinations was approx. 1.400 Euro all-in.
The fare included a guaranteed upselling/reservation of the regional Business Class between Hong Kong and the Chinese destination.
This gives all of us an unrepresentative hint that slightly restricted fares (in CX booking class E) without the last leg in Business Class could be traded about 1,000-1,100 Euro. If you value the upselling on the regional product correctly. And therefore significantly exceeding the today's usual Economy fares.
That said and the assumption given that the reduced PE fare would trade at 66 % of the flexible fare the result is:
Full fare return for PE would be approx. 1,500-1,600 Euro. @:-)
And therefore leading to a fair gap to reduced Business fares of approx. 2,000 Euros for the same destination (and not with a nightly bump in a far-away tax-free paradise...
)
That said I assume that nearly noone is buying full fare Y on intercontinental flights these days due to the lack of value delivered.
+ would buy the flight in Lufthsansa's great Premium Economy Class for approx. 1.500-2000 Euro ex Germany with some flexibility and the assumption of the new LH product.
Interestingly enough CX made a flash sale some weeks ago for March 2014 which was fastly nearly sold out! The advertised r/t fare from Frankfurt to Chinese airports (not Hong Kong) destinations was approx. 1.400 Euro all-in.
The fare included a guaranteed upselling/reservation of the regional Business Class between Hong Kong and the Chinese destination.
This gives all of us an unrepresentative hint that slightly restricted fares (in CX booking class E) without the last leg in Business Class could be traded about 1,000-1,100 Euro. If you value the upselling on the regional product correctly. And therefore significantly exceeding the today's usual Economy fares.
That said and the assumption given that the reduced PE fare would trade at 66 % of the flexible fare the result is:
Full fare return for PE would be approx. 1,500-1,600 Euro. @:-)
And therefore leading to a fair gap to reduced Business fares of approx. 2,000 Euros for the same destination (and not with a nightly bump in a far-away tax-free paradise...
)That said I assume that nearly noone is buying full fare Y on intercontinental flights these days due to the lack of value delivered.
Flash sales are a great tool for price-sensitive customers and there are always certain parts of the year, when the cabin has some open seats available, even to places like HKG in C.
You would be surprised how much revenue Flex Y contributes to carriers like Lufthansa (so carriers able to charge flex fares)
It is not so much about value for money, it is more about getting to a place in time. A rather sizeable steel company from the greater Ruhr area (
) used to dish out 5.5k for emergency flights to one of their major steel mills in China and a bit more for flights to one of their steel mills in Brazil.I can assure you that other carriers, for example SAS to China, charged less than 50% of the LH fare and were disregarded. @:-)
So Premium Y would give those poor souls who have to ride the bus in Y at least a bit more comfort, however the lower amount of seats has to be compensated as well, so 1500-2000k for Premium Y on routes from Munich to Asia is a great value proposition. Do not underestimate that Y will become worse as well...
Mar 6, 2014, 11:38 am
#109
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: VCE
Posts: 14,165
Lufthansa has a certain reputation, first and foremost they are known for being very expensive. Hence, one should not confuse two things, publishing certain offers with huge letters and making the huge letter fares available...
Flash sales are a great tool for price-sensitive customers and there are always certain parts of the year, when the cabin has some open seats available, even to places like HKG in C.
You would be surprised how much revenue Flex Y contributes to carriers like Lufthansa (so carriers able to charge flex fares)
It is not so much about value for money, it is more about getting to a place in time. A rather sizeable steel company from the greater Ruhr area () used to dish out 5.5k for emergency flights to one of their major steel mills in China and a bit more for flights to one of their steel mills in Brazil.
I can assure you that other carriers, for example SAS to China, charged less than 50% of the LH fare and were disregarded. @:-)
So Premium Y would give those poor souls who have to ride the bus in Y at least a bit more comfort, however the lower amount of seats has to be compensated as well, so 1500-2000k for Premium Y on routes from Munich to Asia is a great value proposition. Do not underestimate that Y will become worse as well...
Flash sales are a great tool for price-sensitive customers and there are always certain parts of the year, when the cabin has some open seats available, even to places like HKG in C.
You would be surprised how much revenue Flex Y contributes to carriers like Lufthansa (so carriers able to charge flex fares)
It is not so much about value for money, it is more about getting to a place in time. A rather sizeable steel company from the greater Ruhr area (
) used to dish out 5.5k for emergency flights to one of their major steel mills in China and a bit more for flights to one of their steel mills in Brazil.I can assure you that other carriers, for example SAS to China, charged less than 50% of the LH fare and were disregarded. @:-)
So Premium Y would give those poor souls who have to ride the bus in Y at least a bit more comfort, however the lower amount of seats has to be compensated as well, so 1500-2000k for Premium Y on routes from Munich to Asia is a great value proposition. Do not underestimate that Y will become worse as well...
Mar 7, 2014, 10:29 am
#110
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,553
Annoying that they are waiting until May to start selling this if they already know the 748-8s are going to have it starting in November. I would quite like to give their premium economy a go on a trip to Brazil this Christmas (instead of going for my usual option of AF's PE), but given that it is Christmas time, it seems risky to wait another two months before booking to see if LH will be cheaper than AF is right now...if they aren't, by then AF could have raised prices and I'll have only done myself a disservice. :/ Not sure what to do!
Mar 7, 2014, 11:13 am
#111
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 2,189
Annoying that they are waiting until May to start selling this if they already know the 748-8s are going to have it starting in November. I would quite like to give their premium economy a go on a trip to Brazil this Christmas (instead of going for my usual option of AF's PE), but given that it is Christmas time, it seems risky to wait another two months before booking to see if LH will be cheaper than AF is right now...if they aren't, by then AF could have raised prices and I'll have only done myself a disservice. :/ Not sure what to do!
Mar 7, 2014, 7:24 pm
#112
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: VCE
Posts: 14,165
Annoying that they are waiting until May to start selling this if they already know the 748-8s are going to have it starting in November. I would quite like to give their premium economy a go on a trip to Brazil this Christmas (instead of going for my usual option of AF's PE), but given that it is Christmas time, it seems risky to wait another two months before booking to see if LH will be cheaper than AF is right now...if they aren't, by then AF could have raised prices and I'll have only done myself a disservice. :/ Not sure what to do!
I do agree it is a bit strange to wait a month to sell this. You may want to also see if there are any inexpensive P fares coming up as usually Xmas time is OK for this.
Mar 8, 2014, 3:29 am
#114
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,553
Normally AF premium economy is £1200 from here, right now it is coming up as £1600 for its cheapest fare. 
Cheapest economy ticket is actually with LH, at £700, so if they are saying 600 euro more for PE = 500 gbp = £1200...that'd be excellent.
Cheapest economy ticket is actually with LH, at £700, so if they are saying 600 euro more for PE = 500 gbp = £1200...that'd be excellent.
Mar 8, 2014, 3:51 am
#115
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: OSL/IAH/ZRH (time, not preference)
Programs: UA1K, LH GM, AA EXP->GM
Posts: 38,265
eVouchers do not clear before DM anymore and unlike the Asian routes, this destinations easily zeros in Biz.
I do agree it is a bit strange to wait a month to sell this. You may want to also see if there are any inexpensive P fares coming up as usually Xmas time is OK for this.
Mar 8, 2014, 6:07 am
#116
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: CDG
Programs: SK Gold, AF Gold, Marriott Platinum
Posts: 3,729
Anyone who believes that Y+ will be 600€ more expensive than the cheapest Y is delusional. I wouldn't expect any Y+ destination under 1500-1600€ save for promotions etc.
Mar 8, 2014, 6:33 am
#117
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: VCE
Posts: 14,165
Prem economy to Asia ex- VCE usually runs around 1300-1400 EUR for example so it will need to be in this price range if they want to take customers from AF in particular.
Mar 8, 2014, 8:17 am
#118
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: CDG
Programs: SK Gold, AF Gold, Marriott Platinum
Posts: 3,729
Mark my words, it'll be one of the most expensive Y+ product on the market 
Mar 8, 2014, 8:28 am
#119
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: OSL/IAH/ZRH (time, not preference)
Programs: UA1K, LH GM, AA EXP->GM
Posts: 38,265
Y+ is for folks like me who have a capped travel budget, cannot really afford to travel in Biz but suffer too much in Y or for ok wealthy private travellers who hate coach. Any decent Y+ product will do for us. If I change in FRA, CPH, or LHR is entirely irrelevant.
LH is so late to the party that most people who need Y+ have left them a while ago. So LH is in the position to have to win the Y+ folks back. They can do that by offering a far superior product or competitive prices.
But to lure a OneWorld Emerald back? That will be quite a task. Sure they can make the cabins tiny and hawk it off at -40% to corporate customers as they do for their E+ now but that would give them no additional business.
I don't see to whom they could sell an expensive Y+ product.
Mar 8, 2014, 10:00 am
#120
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: CDG
Programs: SK Gold, AF Gold, Marriott Platinum
Posts: 3,729
Oh, I'm not saying that there's any logic in it, just thinking about the (captive?) German market which is still largely unaware of competing products (else LH would have been much more hurt financially by now due to the constant lag in bringing their product up to par, as you've already explained). If they can still sell their C at a 20-30% markup compared to everyone else, I have the feeling they'll do the same with Y+. After all, they are a premium carrier (in their own minds, that is).
I would be the first to line up for a 1300€ Y+ ticket to Asia, but I just don't think it's going to happen except at the very beginning.
I would be the first to line up for a 1300€ Y+ ticket to Asia, but I just don't think it's going to happen except at the very beginning.