ozstamps

you would need (old rules) 24'000 status points in your 'bank' per August 2003.

Love the the automatic "mental editing" that people conduct when replying........... Did none of you see me mention BA AS WELL, and how they offrede to let people either stay with airmiles or BA miles?? Or do you all just think that BA is a US company.

I couldn't really care what Dutch law, or contract law is, that is why I gave INDUSTRY examples. DL and BA never had court cases about this subject, UA and AA did.

hfly
I really don't get it. What IS your point?
My original point was that I did not see why KL COULD NOT cut off status on 31/12/03. Whether they will or will not is another matter and I can see arguments on both sides of the equation. From what Cris says, it would seem that they will not, though.

Talking of mental editing, I never suggested that there was anything "farfetched" about maintaining status beyond 31/12/03. All I said was that I could see nothing to prevent them from not doing so if they so wished and I still can't.

If you couldn't care what Dutch law is, etc..., presumably you take the view that they are not legally bound to carry forward status. So what does prevent them from doing so, then?

And what do the precedents that you mention stand for?
1)that US programmes HAD to grandfather benefits? Yes;
2) that ONE European FFP chose to let their members keep to the old system? Yes;
3) that another European FFP who, in theory, has no US residents among its members (in reality a few with a dual address) CANNOT change a feature of its programme which is (AFAIK) uniquely generous in the industry to the detriment of its existing members? No.

I wish it were otherwise. From the information we have now, I do not like the changes that are taking place. But, as far as I can see, all I can do about it is vote with my feet.

Nick, you clearly stated that under the current terms KLM could change anything they wanted if and when they see fit. Every other programme in the world has the EXACT SAME wording. Everyone on FT is familiar with the wording, the only exceptions I know of are when programmes promise a certain time period before they announce changes, which generally seems to be six months.

For that matter KLM or ANY other programme can STOP their programmes at ANYTIME if they want. That is life. I suppose that what I was saying was that your comments were taking the patently obvious (at least to EVERY person on FT) and trying to make it sound NOVEL.

In addition there are similar examples in Europe relating to Qualiflyer (too many to quote here), which were only hampered by the programmes ineptitude in keeping carriers in the programme.

We do not know how KLM will go on this, I will say however that it is quite likely that they will stick to industy norms rather than buck them. The Dutch are actually quite litigious (moreso than many other countries) and if they make too drastic changes, there will be a court action in the Netherlands. I do not think that KLM would want that situation and will act accordingly.

I certainly was not trying to make the obvious sound novel and I apologise to all FTers (and to you hfly in particular) if it sounded as it I did. It DID seem obvious to me that KL could restrict the carrying forward of elite eligibility and therefore was curious to find out why some other FTers did not think so.

The only argument you put forward was that 3 US programmes and one European programme (2 now with Qualiflyer) had grandfathered certain rights.

That does not strike me as establishing that there is a worldwide industry practice of grandfathering FFP benefits. If that were so, we could disregard, for instance, changes in booking class requirements for upgrades or changes in partners as long as we would be using "old miles". To take another example, I do not think that I could book a 7 day GT Bucuti Beach resort at 60000 FD points during March as used to be the case (now 80000 pts) even if using "old" FD points.

It may well be that you have countless examples of the contrary and I bow to your superior knowledge of FFP programmes throughout the world, and in Europe in particular (if there is such a firmly established practice and the matter is so clear-cut, though, why did you feel the need to post that "piece of advice" for any KLM lurker: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum.../000928.html?)

I think, however, that one should be careful before inferring the existence of worldwide norms on the basis of examples which are primarily US-based. The US and European market are VERY different. There is a homogeneity in the US that does not exist in Europe; patterns of flying and fare structures are also different.

I guess I might perhaps again be "stating the obvious" and I apologise to FTers who feel annoyed by this. On the whole, however, in an international, multi-cultural board, it is probably best to err on the side of safety and not to assume that what is obvious to me is necessarily obvious to everybody else.

As an example, AC managed to gut the Aeroplan system at the start of 2002 without law suits etc. Lets hope KLM doesn't follow this path.

Just as a point of clarification, AA is not the same as UA in this regard. One can reach AA Gold or Platinum via segments, but the only way to reach Executive Platinum is via miles or points (based on spending).

Whatever KLM chooses to do now in regard to miles and segments, one can be fairly certain that it will bear a logical connection to Northwest's and Continental's programmes.



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~ Friends don't let friends fly coach ~

It seems clear from the experiences posted here


http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum28/HTML/000916.html

that they're deducting only 10,000 points from the total for the "match" folks' next year at Royal Wing, and rolling the remaining balance over. That would square with the figures you cite: 17,650 less 10,000 leaves 7,650. Needing 24,000 points to renew "next" year, less the 7,650 you have left over, leaves 16,350 to acquire (which jibes with what the website says).

My RW status ends in November this year and I have 65900 surplus points in my account which should see me good to 2005 plus nearly enough over for another year to stay RW.

Please don't tell me that all the miles I racked up this year will go to waste and I'll be Platinum only until end 2003 !

I currently have enough Status Points to retain RW membership through June 2008. So I, too, would be less than pleased if I were to lose 4� years of membership overnight.

johan

I have just under 3 years left. I rang FD helpdesk who were certain that we would all get a letter over the next few weeks explaining what was to happen to our excess. The chap I talked to told me that he had been told our Plat elite status would be extended in line with our RW years left. I wrote to Mrs Imms FD UK asking if I should cram in another flight before 23rd oct to tip me up to the 3 years as I would hate to waste 21000 points as a lost part yera. I have not heard back. I have flights on 27th oct and again 9th nov so will argue it if they are not forthcoming. I would have thought they would have a lot of unhappy loyal people if they do not honour the already collected points, particularly in light of their generosity to comped members.

I could not agree more. I've been flying KLM for almost 33 years longer than the FD program has been around. If that doesn't qualify me as a loyal passenger I wouldn't know what does.

I honestly can't see what business sense it makes for KLM to alienate and antagonize longstanding customers, especially given the airline's small home market and dependence on transfer passengers.

A modest increase in the top tier qualification level might have spurred current RWs to fly more to retain Platinum status. Increasing the level by over 70% (on the assumption that 24,000 points x 1.83 = 43,920 miles. In segments, the increase is a whopping 125%!) seems designed to chase them straight into the arms of the competition.

Where's the logic?

johan

Anybody here with a new Gold/Plat card with the new (?) Elite hotline tested them already? Did they improve this service?

I noticed that the new brochure states that at ticket offices of KLM (worldwide?) you can get an upgrade for all KLM and partners flights from AMS with points up to 1hr prior to departure. That would be really new and good news if it's true...

I got my package today, and �the first thing I discovered was that I had only received a Silver Elite card although I�m SilverWing right now (qualified in July). Then I realized that the new card had my old BlueWing number on it, so I guess they printed the cards a while ago (someone said June)?
Am I right to assume that they will send me a Gold Elite card after October 23rd?
Will this work automatically, or should I call them and make sure that they do their job?

Interesting... I wonder if KLM will split current SW's into Silvers and Golds based on some unknown criteria.

In FD time, July to October is not a very long time . I would wait for a few weeks and keep checking your online statement and this forum: once people start reporting that their new status appears online, you should be able to see yours and act accordingly.