mnredfox

These types of posts are really useless. I find it so funny how so many people love sharing and posting codes here, but when people get locked down we all give them the, "you did it" excuse. Seriously, how many people surf the FT IC thread and don't use codes? We all do it.

Now let's even talk about how PC gives you an option that you heard the code from a chat board or internet forum. They even in their own selection realize people share codes and are ok with it.

Sheesh, give people who this happens to a break. If it were to happen to you I guarantee you wouldn't be so nonchalant to say "yup, I ate the cookie from the cookie jar."

dgwright99

I agree with you up to a point. PCR must certainly know about the use of targeted promos by those not targeted, and their evident decision not to enforce the targeting is a clear statement of tacit permission.

However, using a script to game that system "on an industrial scale" IMHO scrosses another line, and a line that ICHG can reasonably draw. Indeed, I have "manually" milked a loophole in another program systematically for over 500k miles, and if I were caught then I would feel in a poor position to complain if they took those 500k miles away. Gaming a system by registering for extra promos is one thing; doing it systematically to reap far more benefit than even those nominally taregeted would earn is quite another.

As I said in my previous posts, I do think that they have been unreasonably harsh, but we do not have visibility into how many people generated how many points in this way, and the total $ that this has cost them. Blanket suspension, and fair-minded case-by-case review when members contact them would be a defensible response.

janetdoe

What evidence would you accept as proof? Does testimony that IHG employees have said that only Chinese are targeted and it could not happen in any other country have no weight with you?

Right. Because if the police pull over every dark-skinned person with a broken headlight, but never pull over a white person with a broken headlight, there hasn't been any discrimination, just appropriate punishment for a select few who had high risk profiles.

Has the OP engaged in behavior that was more egregious than the majority of other PC members on Flyertalk? Probably not. I think the fact that it appears that only people with Chinese connections are impacted is probably making many of you give a big sigh of relief. @:-) If so, then you are very short-sighted. Are Germans or Mexicans or Nigerians next?

I think the worst part is that a loyalty program is actually using their clause which says they can shut down your account at any time for any reason, with no appeal. Everyone on FT with aggressive point collecting behavior should be concerned.

For those of you who argue, "China has lots of fraud, so it's IHG's behavior is reasonable," would you be more or less concerned if there were no allegations of ethnic or national targeting? More or less concerned if anyone, regardless of national affiliation, who had engaged in behavior similar to the OP had an account closed with no appeal?

dgwright99

How many FTers use scripts to game the system by registering for the same promo 15-20 times ? Or use scripts at all ?

The scripts appear to have been downloaded from a Chinese website, so no surprise that the people caught were Chinese. Using the same anaology - cops pulling over a lot of minorities but not caucasians in a 99% minority neighborhood is not evidence of bias - it merely tracks the population.

The attitude and statements of JE are a problem, and unless ICHG repudiates them then it's reasonable to accept them as the policy of the company, but at this point it is possible that they are the words/actions of a single mid-level employee, and not corporate policy.

IC6A

Evidence, please.

WBOTM

IMHO, the use of a script is a non-issue. Few promotions if any preclude by rule a user from using a script to register for a promotion.

Besides, how many people sign-up with the "auto-fill" function built into the web browser or RoboForm or some other browser add-on?

Dave Noble

Someone saying that someone told them so is not even close to proof


Based on his own admission, yes he has. He registered 15-20 times on multiple accounts for a promo earning 100 points


Allegations are just that, allegations. That is not proof that it is happening. If the particular scam was being perpetrated predominantly by those in China, then by all probability the likelihood is that the people found will be most likely Chinese. Hardly profiling . Even if they are profiling on a particular group at the moment, to be blunt so what. If they believe that the most likely culprits are of a particular group, why wouldnt they programme their database searches to just that group rather than spend a lot longer trauling every account

andrewwm

There appears to be a couple of separate issues here.

First, there were, very likely, many people in China who were abusing the PC system. I think everyone is agreed here that IHG is right to close their accounts and ban them.

Second, IHG has a legal right to close the OP's post. However, that doesn't mean that it wasn't an unfair or unjustified decision.

Third, the OP appears to be using his PC account like most of the posters here on FT use their accounts - sign up for a lot of codes posted in Radioman's thread, perhaps took a bit of advantage of the survey point loophole but not even rising to the level of egregious by PC's own standards (his self-reported taking advantage of it didn't rise to the level of the cutoff for account suspension). To criticize him for doing what we all (more or less) do here is highly hypocritical. By that standard, we should all have our accounts closed and status revoked. Moreover, IHG tacitly encourages people to use their accounts like this (not in the survey loophole way, but at least with the registering of codes)

Fourth, he and the other accused Chinese account holders were given no due process. Not even a "we assume you're guilty until you prove you're innocent" type of resolution process. They don't seem to care that they may be catching some innocent ones along with some guilty ones.

Fifth, the fact that they are only targeting Chinese members (as we have evidence from the mouth of the IHG staff) is simply discrimination, and suggests to me that IHG is thinking that they can just get away with mistreating their Chinese member base with their ham-handed actions.

I think the discrimination charge here is incredibly easy to prove (usually it is much more subtle). How many of us have activity profiles like the OP? That is, manage several accounts and register a lot of codes, coupled with a fair amount of redemption activity. I'd say almost everyone posting in this thread. How many of us have had our accounts shut? None, except for OP. Why was OP singled out (assuming everything he said is true, which seems reasonable)? Because, as IHG has admitted, he is Chinese and they are only going after Chinese members. That right there is textbook discrimination.

Even if most of the violators of the PC program are Chinese, I'm sure there are more reasonable ways to deal with them than write a script that catches a rather commonly done (and tacitly encouraged) activity and then ban anyone it catches that happens to have a Chinese name.

Edit to add:
Occam's razor. Lots of Chinese people getting their PC account closed. No non-Chinese people with the same activity profile are having their account closed. It is reported by someone not on this forum (i.e. no dog in the fight) that IHG is targeting Chinese members. Seems pretty reasonable evidence that they are targeting Chinese members.

What standard of evidence will you need? A press release from IHG stating that they plan on discriminating against Chinese?

No he hasn't. His use of the survey promo loophole didn't even rise to the level of the fallout account suspension, and they didn't take away his points. Furthermore, none of the people that had their account suspended (except for the really egregious users) later had their account closed. It's like saying his earlier speeding is a justifying factor in a death sentencing hearing.

No one has a problem if most of the people that are abusing the PC system are Chinese and IHG closes their account. The problem is that the OP is mostly using his account like everyone else here on flyertalk and he gets banned from the program because he has a Chinese name. If you can't see why this is unfair then I really can't help you.

yyliu88

what script? I just did that 100 quiz bonus 15 times, is that call using script?

How many Non Chinese people did more than 5K on this forum? How many got closed so far?

You did not get the point here. Quiz account closure is totally diff than this one. For quiz-Gate, you are account is freeze

for this, our account are reset to ZERO balance and CLOSED!

yyliu88

I 15-20 times on multiple accounts for a promo earning 100 points, that means

15 times for my account=1500
20 times for my wife=2000

15 for my father=1500

Is there a problem with that? How many people here on flyertalk did what I did?


Did you read what I said, My account was a 7 years old account with US address and US stays since the first day.


The only difference btw me and most members here is I have Chinese FIRST and LAST NAME.

ftv

The scariest part is PC account closure for "too many codes." How many, exactly, is "too many?" PC creates these codes, is it up to them to not create "too many" in the first place?

Hannibal Lecter

I don't believe their accounts were closed down for that reason but more likely for something much more serious, I doubt the whole truth has been told
or ever will.

Kiwi Flyer

In theory any hotel or airline program could do similar - they all have rules which allow them to close any account.

yyliu88

you just don't get it or never will.

Dave Noble

Depends on whether you class repeatedly claiming the same promotion over and over as something that everybody does. They don't all engage in such activities

If he did this , whether others get caught is irrelevent. It is like whining that it is unfair to be caught speeding since others who didnt drive down the road where a speed camera was set didnt.

Where is it ok, 15 times, 150 times... as many times as a program I write can submit it?

I also suspect that there is more to this than the poster is revealing anyway

Dave