GUWonder

Details? "Experts" need so such thing when the "expertise" is in "airline management", soccer, America, Germany, Dubai or what not.

"We don't need no education
We don't need no thought control
No dark sarcasm in the classroom
Teachers leave them kids alone
Hey teacher leave them kids alone
All in all it's just another brick in the wall
All in all you're just another brick in the wall".

It also reminds me of a song or two from Twisted Sisters.

FD1971

The average speed of most Amtrak services, outside of their high speed corridor, is so pathetic that the Bahn could strike for six days and probably catch the average Amtrak Train shortly before Sunday is over.

What the Bahn poster did not realize; aside from some new routes, most of the Bahn Network was never intended to connect two cities the fastest way, it was intended to connect more or less all cities between two points, so the routes take major detours and even the Schnellfahrstrecke between Cologne and Rhein/Main had to changed due to political concerns, hence Limburg and Montabaur were added...

And I cannot wait for someone challenging me to present a source for that comment...

Maybe I should ask the poster for a scientific market seperation of all relevant passengers between Cologne and Frankfurt, which might explain the multi-tiered approach by Germany in comparison to the mono tier approach by Dubai. This might help understanding why Dubai invested so much into Aviation and ports and not so much into camels and highways trying to get the sheikdom the map.

Wow, another song from the fans in the stands. Thanks for the variety, the old ones DC3, DC3, DC3 became indeed a bit boring after some days.

Are you able to incorporate the Terms 'Delta' and 'Fleece Shirt' into your next songs.

Talking about Fleece Shirts, I have a question for you, which Italian market is subject to high subsidies from the EU for receiving air service and is also home to a major producer of Fleece Shirts?

NOIR

Good one, or how about,

Dreamer, you know you are a dreamer
Well can you put your hands in your head, oh no!
I said dreamer, you're nothing but a dreamer
Well can you put your hands in your head, oh no!
I said "Far out, what a day, a year, a life it is!"
You know, well you know you had it comin' to you,
Now there's not a lot I can do

Dreamer, you s......... little dreamer;
So now you put your head in your hands, oh no!
I said "Far out, - What a day, a year, a laugh it is!"
You know, well you know you had it comin' to you,
Now there's not a lot I can do.

GUWonder

This thread is not about fleece shirts, but "experts" on fleece shirts can ask questions about fleece shirts which I'm not going to entertain like I entertain the amusing questions and claims about EK that come from "experts".

Is Emirates a financial scam like Lufthansa or United?

FD1971

Wrong answer...

How much of your 75000 comments did it cost you?

74999...

That's too bad.

But like Alex always says, Thanks for playing anyway, my friend!

See you in Bozen.

I fear they cannot accomodate a 777 or 380 there, otherwise it would not only be a good market to produce Fleece Shirts, I see a lot of demand for a service to Dubai as well, the desert is cold at night.

eternaltransit

Moving on from the sidetracks (see what I did there...tracks...anyone...anyone...) and sniping - exactly what kind of transparency are we talking about, in the case of EK (clearly QR and EY have some way to go).

After all, they already publish a lot of information, comparable to many other airlines operating around the world.

Do you mean that EK now must rely on the books of every single one of its transacting partners to be published, wherever they are located in the world, because the related party transactions as disclosed in their own reports are not sufficient for Western eyes because of their scepticism of the culture of the home jurisdiction (flimsy though that argument is, which personally I think masks a rather unpleasant subtext).

Or does it mean that EK needs to publish even more information that goes above and beyond what any publicly traded airline discloses in their regulatory reports: such as specific revenue, passenger yield mix, specific costs for routes and sectors - i.e. sensitive commercial data.

You still run into the problem of "we still don't believe what you're saying because you're from Dubai", though, so how would that solve anything?

Or is this like the IMF in Asia in the late 1990s where governments wanted to impose their economic orthodoxy on countries, using an economic situation as leverage to dictate their ideologies (look up the IMF Structural Adjustment Packages) of the late 90s - in this case, Western countries wanting to impose their cultural norms of doing business on the UAE and Qatar by striking a blow against the competitive pressures and existential paranoia they have against state capitalism (perhaps in a nod to China as well - since they can't do anything about China's state capitalism). Still, this reading is a bit of a stretch, I admit, if the idea is that this is deliberate. But there is this subtext of the clash of capitalism and economic systems (and all the associated norms of things - conglomerates out, in the west, efficient single purpose enterprises with public stockholders are in) underlying the whole dispute. As said before, people's opinions on this are swayed by their political and economic views more than any evidence.

On a purely personal note, I think it would be interesting to see read any of the sensitive commercial stuff, and welcome more information from related parties, but given we don't hold peers in the market to the same level of disbelief/scrutiny, I think it's rather unfair to demand it.

After all, none of the US3 accusers ever state what it would take for them to drop the accusations - what level of evidence is enough to satisfy them. If EK has been lying all this time, why don't they simply just double-down and create a whole set of new results that satisfy the pre-supposed narrative (e.g. "oh, yes, see, sometimes EK does lose money!"). But then again, EK can't win if it makes money, or if it loses money - one wonders whether the war has been started simply to get EK stuck in a never-ending war, rather than to decide any issues

FD1971

Actually, for those who really care about how much it cost them to make EK what they are today, a number would be nice, but as pointed out before, aviation experts do not really care whether we talk about 5, 10 or 15 billion over the last 30 years.

For starters, they could begin with the $2.3 billion the US3 mentioned, S2.3 billion related to doing business with their sister companies also owned by Dubai.

As pointed out before, this is the main scam; hundreds, if not thousands of smaller companies that do business with EK and take over the financial obligations to make EK look clean and profitable.

As pointed out before as well, it is not even a new trick, other owners (miss)used other service providers as well over the last 60 years or so.

I already stated numerous examples, another one can be found in Russia where Aeroflot cross-subisidizes its airline operations with the money made from charges for overflying Russian territory. BTW, this is one real major CA of EK, no charges for overflying Russian territory on Europe-Asia routes, which should save them a high two digit - low three digit amount in $million in comparison to carriers like Lufthansa.

So, once again, starting with the $2.3 billion and a complete overview of the companies doing business with EK internally within the sheikdom and their financial performance would be enough to uncover the "scam"

P.S.

Speaking of tracks, music tracks and not tracks over Russia, I like to add a nice line from Spooks...

You wont believe the things I've seen.. Far beyond your wildest dreams...

which is probably the most fitting line for the ME3 subsidies.

eternaltransit

The difference with Aeroflot's royalties revenue (18% of FY earnings!) is that it's transparently stated that is what happens - unlike the allegations against EK which is that they are secretly funding it.

Also, even back in 2012, there were allegations that far be it from Russia subsidising Aeroflot by giving it overflight money, Russia is in fact, taking back its overflight money "illegally" (after all, what is legal/illegal in the Russian Federation when it comes to the government ) from Aeroflot! http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...t-of-1-billion.

I'm not sure what the progress was on the EU-Russian overflight fees discussions were, but considering the current relations, I would say the old regime remains in place for the forseeable future.

So doesn't the point about overflight fees over Siberia illustrate yet another advantage EK benefits from (its geography by being located where it is, in the Gulf) to save a couple of percentage points of margin on its Europe-Asia flights - which, as you say in a low margin business, is extremely important, making them less reliant on the highest-yield business and able to subsist on higher-yields and el-cheapo below-cost pax?

irishguy28

This news was released 6 days ago but I only encountered it via Business Traveller's weekly mailshot today.


You can read the report here

www.KeepTheSkiesOpen.com

FD1971

Maybe, you should also state the ICAO position on those charges and point out what Russia does in case you refuse to follow international law and rely on Russian law.

But I wonder why you did not comment on the 2.3 billion and all the firms surrounding Emirates?

FD1971

As pointed out 380 times already, every state-owned airline received massive amounts of subsidies...

But it does not help the ME3 at this point, they do not need the show the world that the US3 were highly subsidised, they have to show the world that they are not...

But throwing some grenades creating a lot of smoke first never hurts...

GUWonder

Indeed your responding post has supplied the wrong answer to the question:

"Is Emirates a financial scam like Lufthansa or United?"

Answers like that aren't a Jeopardy winner.

Not going around Bozen for apples, or maybe I am. But the question remains:

"Is Emirates a financial scam like Lufthansa or United?"

irishguy28

Then explain why the US3 are targetting the ME3 for doing something they themselves have demonstrably done.

And explain why the US3 should themselves also not become targets for similar calls for rescinding access and restricting their commercial activities.

The US3 have engaged in behaviour of the type they complain about to a much greater extent. Why is it OK for the US3 to do this, but not the ME3?

Not that they have managed to prove that the ME3 has done this.

EK has shown that. QR and EY are preparing that.

That is all that the US3 have managed to do. And, seemingly, all that they are able to do.

But I think they may also be shooting themselves in the foot. By spitting their dummy out of the pram when they have never had it so good, they are inviting critical appraisal of their own motives and actions as well. Their cosy joint ventures are almost certain to be investigated to a far more critical degree by both the US and EU competition authorities the next time they are up for review.

FD1971

An all time primer, maybe the best comment since the invention of the internet.

Like I posted before, the GDR simply did not allow unemployment, they simply said it does not exist and everybody agreed and said: Amen, Erich

It is the same here, Clark says No and expects us to say Yes and Amen.

GUWonder

The EU3 parts used to complain about the US3 parts being "subsidized", but boy did that focus drop after the US3 and EU3 got American and European government-supplied protection to engage in intimate relations with one another so as to more effectively cheat on American and European consumers.