UA1K_no_more

Interesting words considering that you can't stop fixating on the EK BELF for a single year...

irishguy28

Which was apparently 20 years ago!

FD1971

Considering the loads in C on LH, it is not surprising to find Siemens employees on all irlines, that is actually pretty logical. Ex Germany, loads on many airlines are close to 100% during the busy times of the year on flights to hot business destinations in Biz, hence the ME3 were also able to increase fares massively over the last years....

Again, you fail to understand my motivation. I know what is going on, it would be sad if it wasn't the case..., I just want to make sure that some of the posters without access to my sources and without a background in (Airline) Management understand what is going on, in case they care.

It is just to good to be true...

Isn't it amazing that EK made money all those years and that the actual loads were always a bit higher than they had to be (in order to keep the fairy tale alive)

You want to go where?

But this is where you are failing, because you don't make a case, you just keep saying 'it's too good to be true.' In fact, your posts are counterproductive, because by failing to make a case, it makes people wonder whether there is a case to be made.

I don't doubt that EK's long-term viability is questionable, given some of the choices it has made and continues to make. However, I would make that statement about some of the US3 as well. Sure, they are making great profits today, but the history of bankruptcies in US airlines doesn't lead me to trust that their current rosy picture is any more sustainable than that of EK.

FD1971

I compared the situation to cycling some months ago; within the industry everyone knew what was going on, but the public was shocked when the story of their hero who survived cancer and went up the mountains faster than anyone else turned to be, well, too good to be true.

We saw the same at FIFA, but I believe that there are still people out there who believe that Russia and Qatar were awarded the World Cup, because they had the best concept.

Obviously, at least for some people, running a Soccer World Cup in the desert in summer is as smart as flying A380 halfway around the World with low yield pax.

I really do not intend to make fun of these people, but it really hurts me when people are not able to grasp what is really going on...

I saw many airlines going down, because they simply did not understand what is happening around them and what is necessary to survive.

And, of course, on forums like FT, you will always find their fans who argue that DL will never fail, that the financial turnaround of AB is just around the corner of the Saatwinkler Damm in Berlin and that the GDR will prosper, because Kohl promised it during the election campaign.

P.S.

I do not have to make a case, at this point in time the ME3 should answer the case brought up by the US3 first...

lighthand

Actually I think they only need to answer a case if it's raised by the relevant authorities (i.e. US Gov to Dubai Gov to EK). Answering a case to your competitor in business is something I've never came across unless it's in a court of law.

Giving benefit of doubt to your self professed expertise. I still think what eternal has raised with facts and figures obtained from non-partisan sources, gives him far more credibility in pointing out that EK's model of low margins is feasible.

However I do agree that for the industry, this can pose a real challenge as no public company will ever agree to such low margins and heavy leverage. I'm not sure if EK is sustainable in the long run if a major downturn occurs.

You want to go where?

But isn't there a bit of the pot, kettle, black in that. Why should the ME3 have to prove they are purer than the driven snow when their accusers look like chimney sweeps (other than for political rather than real level playing field reasons)? That is the reason why I ended up voting 'I don't care'. There have been so many shenanigans in the airline industry - so many companies that have received either direct subsidies from governments or indirect ones in the form of bankruptcy protection and lack of anti-trust controls that it is impossible to level the playing field, short of bulldozing the whole thing and starting from scratch. It looks like a WWI battle field out there.

UA1K_no_more

Do you mean the "low yield pax" on EK202? You know, all the "backpackers" with elite status...
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/emira...avy-ek202.html

I see that you keep bringing up FIFA and their tournaments again and again as an attempt to deflect from the fact that you haven't provided ANY information to back up your snooty "trust me, I'm an expert, so I don't have to provide any proof for my allegations" line of reasoning. It didn't work the first time, and it won't work in the future, no matter how many times you try.
Your propeller-era airline management degree may be useful if you are trying to analyze Buffalo Airways' strategy, but this thread is about an airline operating jet aircraft, and you have not presented anything even closely resembling proof to back up your self-professed "expertise."
Based on the "expertise" you have presented in this thread, you are to aviation management what Milli Vanilli was to singing...

GUWonder

"Milli Vanilli professionals/experts"?

Milli Vanilli usually sounded good enough to satisfy diverse audiences; and, they were usually coherent and consistent performers, until the show collapsed.

UA1K_no_more

The came off as skilled singers until they were required to prove their singing expertise. Until then, it was all "Trust us, we can sing. No need to prove it by singing live. If we say we can sing, we can sing." Sounds like a certain self-professed aviation management "expert"...

knit-in

The FIFA World Cup Finals in 2022 are being held in November-December. The Final is scheduled on Dec. 18.

Not a point to be made if you're trying to strengthen your case, friend.

AA_EXP09

Germany has many good high speed rail options that are fairly cheap, unlike America, so LH has no monopoly on domestic German services.
That could also be said to an extent to much of the EU (I have no problem of going to Switzerland/France/Holland/Austria by rail easily from Germany that only requires slightly longer travel time, and is much cheaper.)

FD1971

Oh Boy, Americans and Soccer is like... Emirates and making money from ops...

Just a small hint, you should take a look at the proposed dates during the election process, not the amended dates after everybody told them that there idea is, how can I put it objectively, the most stupid idea in the history of sports ever...

BTW, what is biggest myth in this circumstance, subsidies for Emirates or Doping in Cycling?

The Bahn is a real (high speed) competitor for Lufty on many routes, they are incredibly fast on the inner-German trunk routes like DUS-MUC or HAM-MUC or MUC-BER. @:-)

There are a bit faster than Amtrak though, so we get your point...

irishguy28

They are, when the train drivers are not striking!

FD1971

You might not care, but the road blocks presented by Germany, Canada and the US are getting bigger and bigger and while Portugal might appreciate more EK Service, might even need more EK Service, apparently this is not the case in the more interesting markets.

To make myself clear, I do not compare the losses for EK from ops. with the losses for TAP, when they operated nonstop between Lisbon and Macau (which was probably the most stupid idea in Aviation ever and rivals the most stupid idea in Soccer ever, which brings us back to the Middle East...)

We simply moved on, when everybody was highly subsidized, it was perfectly okay, we had strict BASAs detailing almost everything, fares were set up, IATA seperated the more complicated itenaries, all airlines lost amazing amounts of money flying 20,30% loads and that was it.

After painful deregulation and consolidation in markets like Canada, the US and Germany, the authorities are simply stricter, on the other hand, the US waited until the EU market was deregulated before they started deregulating the TATL market connecting both regions. For those not familiar with the industry, most of the apologist, the history of frequencies between the Netherlands and the US is a good read to get yourself informed.

And we all know that Emirates stated multiple times that they want to be like Pan Am, KLM and SQ, so it is perfect literature.

And now we are coming back to the argument presented by the US and EU more recently, both want new agreements with the Middle East (which will very likely curtail the capacity offered by the ME3) so in order to prevent the cuts the ME3 have to become way more transparent, otherwise they will lose out (like in Canada already)

Probably another chance for Dubai to get back at Canada like they did earlier this decade, when Canada did not increase the frequences, which does not bring us back to Soccer, more to playgrounds of a Kindergarten...