AA to start MIA-TLV and JFK-TLV (maybe LY too)
Apr 14, 2013, 5:50 pm
#61
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That does not add anything to what I had quoted above:
I still would like to read the judge's orders issuing the preliminary injunction and later imposing the liens.
Can you please provide a credible source, i.e., not former employees involved in a dispute over wages, severance pay and pensions, that the TLV route was profitable? Every independent source which I had read indicated that the TLV route at best broke even and most likely was a money loser due to a huge overhead - over 100 local employees to service a single daily flight - and Carl Icahn's Karabu ticket agreement.
I knew many of the TWA Israeli employees, including the last two station managers. I would like to see nothing short of them becoming whole. However, I don't foresee that happening. Most of TWA's US based employees fared much worse than their Israeli counterparts.
I still would like to read the judge's orders issuing the preliminary injunction and later imposing the liens.
Can you please provide a credible source, i.e., not former employees involved in a dispute over wages, severance pay and pensions, that the TLV route was profitable? Every independent source which I had read indicated that the TLV route at best broke even and most likely was a money loser due to a huge overhead - over 100 local employees to service a single daily flight - and Carl Icahn's Karabu ticket agreement.
I knew many of the TWA Israeli employees, including the last two station managers. I would like to see nothing short of them becoming whole. However, I don't foresee that happening. Most of TWA's US based employees fared much worse than their Israeli counterparts.
The 1st post on Airliners was quoting a TWA spokesperson Julia-Bishop Cross I believe was a TW person here in the US and not in Israel. She was explaining why TW snuck out in the dead of night, cause TW over here in the US thought they would Hold an aircraft
My source that it was profitable were TW employees over there who who execs. could be in the end they had problems , just as UA isnt doing as well as CO did a few yrs ago. But TW did sell Biz-F and it was known between selling most of Biz-F and the cargo biz they had, Y could go out completely empty and they still turn a small profit, Y hardly went out empty.
For many yrs it was 2 daily flights the 884/885 non-stop and the 800/801 that went via CDG.That ended when the French stepped in and said you can no longer carry passengers or cargo CDG-TLV-CDG that isnt starting before or ending after France. That killed the 2nd flight, where it was feed from flights to CDG from, BOS,LAX,IAD,JFK at times STL I guess once they stopped the CDG flight they just couldnt drop the employees.Then they went from a 747 to the 767 via FCO or SNN to the 763. No question with stopping to refuel they werent making what they used to but got back on track when they got their 763s. The CDG plane was the L-1011
Yet its also important to know if LY wants to restart ORD or MIA, or if the just want to prevent others from doing so.
Apr 14, 2013, 6:21 pm
#62
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My source that it was profitable were TW employees over there who who execs. could be in the end they had problems , just as UA isnt doing as well as CO did a few yrs ago. But TW did sell Biz-F and it was known between selling most of Biz-F and the cargo biz they had, Y could go out completely empty and they still turn a small profit, Y hardly went out empty.
I am still waiting for proof positive that the lien issued by judge Varda Alshech in the case of Berman v TWA, Tel Aviv District Court 1225/01, applied to aircraft owned by leasing companies.
Apr 14, 2013, 7:01 pm
#63
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My source, who is a recognized expert in airline financial matters, tells me that the route was losing money mainly because the bulk of the US originating passengers bought their tickets from Carl Icahn's lowestfare.com. Icahn was buying the tickets from TWA for 55¢ on the dollar and selling them for 70¢ on the dollar undercutting TWA by 30%. In addition, there was the huge overhead in TLV. No other US airline flying to Israel employs more than a handful of employees there.
I am still waiting for proof positive that the lien issued by judge Varda Alshech in the case of Berman v TWA, Tel Aviv District Court 1225/01, applied to aircraft owned by leasing companies.
I am still waiting for proof positive that the lien issued by judge Varda Alshech in the case of Berman v TWA, Tel Aviv District Court 1225/01, applied to aircraft owned by leasing companies.
Apr 15, 2013, 7:40 am
#64
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Before an Israeli judge will rule to impound an aircraft there will be months if not years of court fights before it happens. Don't forget that in Israel, in order to sue for a large amount of money, the person suing has to put up 1.25% of the amount they are suing for before the court will hear their case.
Apr 15, 2013, 7:45 am
#65
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As far as ORD is concerned, LY never had the pax numbers from there to justify a flight. They always combined ORD with LAX or YYZ. The only way LY could re-start ORD again and have it be profitable in its own right is if they can get AA to feed the flight through their codeshare. Perhaps AA could offer a SFO-TLV flight, transporting the pax from SFO to ORD and feeding them onto an LY flight bound for TLV.
Apr 15, 2013, 8:53 am
#66
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The only way LY can restart MIA is if they get the right a/c for the job. One of the stated reasons why LY discontinued MIA was because the 767 they used was not fuel efficient enough. That, coupled with the majority of the plane being filled with low yielding Y pax made the route unprofitable for LY. Perhaps if they get the A330 that route could be rendered profitable.
As far as ORD is concerned, LY never had the pax numbers from there to justify a flight. They always combined ORD with LAX or YYZ. The only way LY could re-start ORD again and have it be profitable in its own right is if they can get AA to feed the flight through their codeshare. Perhaps AA could offer a SFO-TLV flight, transporting the pax from SFO to ORD and feeding them onto an LY flight bound for TLV.
As far as ORD is concerned, LY never had the pax numbers from there to justify a flight. They always combined ORD with LAX or YYZ. The only way LY could re-start ORD again and have it be profitable in its own right is if they can get AA to feed the flight through their codeshare. Perhaps AA could offer a SFO-TLV flight, transporting the pax from SFO to ORD and feeding them onto an LY flight bound for TLV.
Apr 15, 2013, 11:04 am
#67
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(1) AA did not merge with TWA, it bought certain assets from TWA while TWA was in bankruptcy
(2) AA did not assume any of TWA's debts (why would they?)
(3) If these TWA employees filed a claim against TWA, that was handled in the TWA bankruptcy
By this logic, I suppose that US Airways would now assume AA's debts?
Apr 15, 2013, 7:18 pm
#68
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The former TLV based TWA employees are NOT suing for a large amount of money. They already did that and won a judgement. The issue now is how to get AA to satisfy that judgement. Since AA does not have any assets of value in Israel, should they fly an a/c into TLV the Israeli courts will have to impound the a/c until the judgement will be satisfied.
Apr 15, 2013, 9:32 pm
#69
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Tour groups usually are booked on super low "Y" fares and therefore are notoriously low yielding. What EL AL would need to make those flights profitable are fuel efficient a/c and the "C" section to be filled with paying (non upgraded) pax.
Apr 15, 2013, 9:38 pm
#70
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3. Bankruptcy proceedings by American companies handled in American Courts DO NOT wipe out the worldwide debts of the company. These proceedings only discharge debts in so far as foreign entities cannot come to the United States and demand assets post-bankruptcy. Why is it so hard for my fellow Americans to understand that the rulings of American civil courts do not automatically have bearing on foreign courts, countries, governments, individuals and corporations?
Apr 15, 2013, 9:40 pm
#71
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No other US airline flying to Israel employs more than a handful of employees there
The folks working @ the ORD office constantly have to turn down Non-Jewish tour groups who are looking to go to Israel. True it wont be the most profitable, but the #s they would get. I guess AA code-shares into ORD and then LY over to TLV. Those groups usually ended up on DL or CO
Apr 16, 2013, 9:31 am
#72
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United Airlines contracts with QAS - Quality Airport Services Israel Ltd - for ground services and passenger handling at Ben Gurion Airport. Most United's "employees" there actually work for QAS.
Apr 20, 2013, 2:23 pm
#73
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According to one of the administrators at exmiami.org
"American Airlines intends to begin nonstop service on the Miami to Tel Aviv route following the planned merger with US Airways.
A well-placed source at US Airways tells exMiami that American will add flights to Tel Aviv from both Miami and New York's JFK airport.
The Miami-Tel Aviv route is one of the busiest transatlantic routes currently without nonstop service. El Al discontinued the route in 2008 due to high fuel prices, but is said to be near a decision on reinstating the route."
"American Airlines intends to begin nonstop service on the Miami to Tel Aviv route following the planned merger with US Airways.
A well-placed source at US Airways tells exMiami that American will add flights to Tel Aviv from both Miami and New York's JFK airport.
The Miami-Tel Aviv route is one of the busiest transatlantic routes currently without nonstop service. El Al discontinued the route in 2008 due to high fuel prices, but is said to be near a decision on reinstating the route."
As it currently stands there is virtually NO connecting traffic through TLV on LY or any other airline. My idea is to develop such a market. I am not saying nor thinking that it could compete with Dubai, but it is a market that can and should be cultivated. The large O&D market between TLV and the far east coupled with a small and steadily growing east-west traffic (perhaps even a kangaroo route from TLV) would enable LY to increase frequencies and generate significantly more revenue than it does.
Besides having more ex-North America traffic to TLV, I'd think we certainly see AA having more of the ex-Central and South America to TLV traffic as well as picking up some traffic from the South Pacific with passenger willing to go the long way around the globe; traffic beyond that currently enjoyed by US.
US currently has a bilateral relationship with RJ. However, it is not nearly as tight of a relationship than AA and RJ have with one another as fellow One World members. Although it is possible to now fly US, say, ORD-PHL-TLV and then do an open jaw return AMM-ORD, ticketed as US and fared as a single RT fare, that is not often done. US hasn't marketed their partnership with RJ. AA, however, could likely pick up a chunk of business by doing so -- particularly with American Christians who want to see the Holy Land from both sides of the Jordan. Likewise, they could also offer not just open jaws but also circle strips US to Jordan with a stopover in Israel (or US to Israel with a stopover in Jordan).
Additionally, one could see interesting ATW trips utilizing AA to TLV and continuing onto RJ (and, of course, the other direction).
Could an expansion into such business stimulate LY into considering building a mini hub business at TLV as ELY001 has suggested or would it be to LY's disadvantage?
Apr 20, 2013, 4:51 pm
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Besides having more ex-North America traffic to TLV, I'd think we certainly see AA having more of the ex-Central and South America to TLV traffic as well as picking up some traffic from the South Pacific with passenger willing to go the long way around the globe; traffic beyond that currently enjoyed by US.