thucanhho

OMG...When you PM me talking about your husband, my mind was not up to date and PC. I obviously ...umed and feel like an .... So glad you have a good sense of humor. FT definitely needs to define gender.

Yahillwe

I usually tip even when the service is included. Normally I would leave 30 euros but it depends on the bill.

Love Spetime, go there quite often, you'll enjoy it. If you have to wait, then go around the corner to their small cave and have a drink.

Love Chateaubriand, but be careful, once I managed to snag a last minute place and took some friends, the whole meal was inedible for any of us, all was innards. No one could eat (my friends are natives). We ended up going next door to Dauphine. And whenever I beg them to try it again, they refuse. I still go.

robyng

I'm not sure I understand all of your logic WRT - for example - the "basic wine" versus the "premium wine". When it comes to food - say you order a 4 course fixed menu that has various supplements available. Like a course with truffles that's an extra $40. Same number of courses - same amount of work for the server. Do you tip on the basic menu price - or the price you actually wind up paying with the supplement charge (we tip on the latter amount)? Also - if I order a "premium" alcohol brand in a cocktail - I tip based on what I actually pay for the drink - not on what a "well drink" would cost.

What do you do about the value of the BYO wine? Some sources suggest that one tip on the "value" of BYO wine (whatever that is - what you paid for the wine - or what the restaurant might charge for it) - but I doubt that view is widely held. And any corkage fees for BYO wine? I assume a server has to provide the same service when you BYO as when you order off the menu. And my impression is that corkage fees go to the restaurant - not the server.

Note that we don't bring wine to restaurants. First - because I don't drink wine for the most part. Second - because we know the local restaurants we favor tend to make whatever profits they make on alcohol - not food (we want to make sure they're profitable and don't go out of business). Third - because no way I want to carry something heavy like wine on a trip - particularly one by air.

I suppose one issue is what tips are imputed to servers by the IRS (or other taxing authorities) for purposes of paying taxes on them. Wine purchased with a meal seems to be included in the reporting (and I therefore assume other alcohol is included as well). The reporting rate is only 8% for the IRS - a fair amount less than 15-20%. But a bottle of wine that's very expensive compared to the cost of food could throw the total reporting out of whack. Servers shouldn't have to pay taxes on tips they didn't get.

Another complicating factor these days is "counter dining" where the chefs are handing your dishes to you. And the most a "server" does is handle drink orders and clear away dishes (I've even seen one restaurant where all your silverware is in a little drawer in the counter - Restaurant Frantzen in Stockholm - so you set your own "table"). You're getting a lot less service from servers - and paying the same 20%.

All the questions I have make this issue far too complicated IMO. So we always follow the rule KISS - and tip 20% total for the most part. Perhaps a somewhat higher % for truly extraordinary service (and I guess < 20% for lousy service - although I don't recall any lousy service in recent years). And I honestly believe the Japanese have it right. Pay your employees a decent salary so they don't have to depend on tip income to make a living (and eliminate tipping as a cultural norm).

If everyone followed the Japanese rule - it would make life a lot easier for all of us diners. It would also make life a lot easier for servers - especially those in restaurants that cater to international travelers who come from many different countries with different rules/attitudes about tipping. I just hope we get things right on our upcoming trip to Singapore. Robyn

robyng

Alinea adds an automatic 20% tip to one's bill (including the price of alcohol):

http://www.grubstreet.com/2013/06/re...cept-tips.html

So I can see why no additional tip is expected.

I don't know what the French Laundry adds. Do you recall what your bill said? I honestly don't think it's a faux pas not to "round up" a 15-18% gratuity.

The "ticket" model for restaurants is relatively new. Alinea didn't use it when it first opened - but does now (Next opened using the ticket model). Here's an extensive discussion of the model now in use at Alinea - Next and Aviary:

http://website.alinearestaurant.com/...r-restaurants/

It's an interesting concept/model - and makes a lot of sense for some restaurants IMO. Unfortunately - it doesn't work for me as a diner coming from out of town with the aim of dining in a particular place. If I book the restaurant first - perhaps I won't be able to get appropriate flights/hotel reservations. If I book the flights/hotel first - then perhaps I won't be able to get the restaurant reservation. Also - sh** happens in peoples' lives. People get sick - people die. And the best of plans can be disrupted. My travel plans haven't been disrupted that often - but it's been often enough for me to avoid booking things that are non-refundable.

Note that I don't mind the increasingly common requirement of giving a credit card to hold a reservation - or paying a reasonable cancellation fee if I cancel with very short notice (or just don't show up - although I've never done that in my whole life). I had to do that with Restaurant Andre in Singapore. Cancellation fee is 20% if made < 72 hours in advance - 50% if < 48 hours - and 100% within 24 hours. In any event - I hope the "restaurant ticket" model remains the exception in terms of "destination restaurants" - and doesn't become the norm.

I don't know why you can't dine and do sightseeing on a trip. You have to do something between meals to amuse yourself and work off all those calories . And - if you think you'll be pressed for time because of lengthy meals - I suggest getting a pass like this (which will - at a minimum - enable you to skip lines and save some time when visiting attractions):

https://www.parispass.com/how-it-works/index.html

Robyn

robyng

"Innards" = offal? Robyn

Yahillwe

Oh and both Septime and Chateau are casual, so don't dress up as in going to a 3 star. If you did, you'll feel out of place.

bhrubin

I'm not terribly concerned with whether or not anyone understands my logic. You asked me to explain, so I tried.

If a restaurant charges corkage for bringing your own bottle of wine, then I consider that to be the charge required for bottle service. We include that amount in what we tip. Of course, if corkage is what the restaurant believes is fair to offset the cost of not providing wine from their own menu, then tipping on the cost of a cheaper bottle of wine is still more than tipping on a corkage fee--so I feel like I'm perfectly appropriate in the calculations I make.

The cited article you included in your previous post reflected that there are no rules when it comes to tipping on wine, as well as the fact that restaurants are not offended when you don't tip on the high value of a single bottle of wine with an expensive dinner.

Restaurants mark up the cost of wine to cover their expenses in acquisition, storage and service, in my opinion. So tipping on that mark up is not appropriate in my opinion.

We have a 4800 bottle cellar with many expensive bottles, mostly but not limited from the New World wine areas (California mostly, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, Argentina) with a smaller number from Bordeaux, Burgundy, the Rhone, Italy, Hungary, and Spain. Since our cellar often has better bottles than that of the wine lists at US restaurants, and since our wines were purchased directly from the wineries/vineyards, we almost always find it smarter to bring our own wine to dinner when we dine locally or in the USA...and often when we travel. When we are going to top restaurants where we most often prefer to do a tasting menu with wine pairings, we don't bring our own wine as enjoying wine pairings is one of my favorite things to do. I'm also a serious wine fanatic, in the midst of the UC Davis winemaking graduate certificate program, so I take wine very seriously and also live to visit the vineyards where our favorite wines are grown and made.

I appreciate that not everyone will agree with my take on tipping on wine. To each, his or her own, I say. But trying to chastise me is a fruitless exercise, especially when the very article you've already shared indicates that there are no rules on tipping with wine.

thucanhho

Thanks...did look at pictures and saw that. I always wear close that can do either way anyway.

robyng

No - I wasn't trying to chastise you at all. It's just that tipping - and all its various protocols/conventions and various points of view - seems entirely too convoluted to me.

Like WRT bringing your own wine. And paying corkage fees - and tipping on corkage fees. If - like you say - the corkage fee at some places may be designed to compensate for not ordering wine off the menu - then what should I - a non-wine drinker - do? Tip on the cheapest bottle of wine on a menu - a wine I can't drink <LOL>? And should I subtract from that amount the $ value of any cocktails I drink? Should a vegetarian tip on the price of a usually more expensive non-vegetarian menu? Obviously those notions would be non-starters for most people.

Anyway - you deal with things best you can in a way that makes sense to you. And we do likewise. But I don't think we should have to. Things should be easier.

FWIW - I know there are often big fights that rage between BYOB advocates like you and BYOB haters (including many restaurants):

http://eater.com/archives/2012/09/07...ge-culture.php

And I ain't got no dog in that fight. In all the years I've been alive - I can only recall bringing a bottle of wine to a restaurant once. It was an expensive first growth excellent vintage ready to drink red Bordeaux that cost about $200 in the 70's in liquor stores (someone gave it to us as a business gift). And we uncorked it at a decent local French restaurant on Key Biscayne - where we used to live. When we were dining with a late friend of ours who was a wine maven and probably had a much greater wine cellar than most people do today. If only because he was a generation older than us - one and a half or two generations older than you - started his collection in the 1940's - when prices were a lot more reasonable than in later years - and lived long enough so he could see his best "deep/complex" wines mature and "come of age". I've only had that stuff that tastes like "liquid velvet" a couple of times in my life - but it's nothing I'll ever forget. And if someone were to put a glass of it in front of me now - I"d probably drink it and worry about the GI consequences in the morning .

Anyway - may you live long enough to enjoy the wines you've put in your cellar when they're all grown up and ready to drink . Robyn

bhrubin

Doesn't seem convoluted or complicated to me at all.

Thanks! We share our wine with friends and family (and often the servers at the restaurants where we bring it), and we like many aged wines, so cellaring is the only way to enjoy that short of buying older wines that cost prohibitively more money.

Not everyone likes wine. We love wine. We like demystifying it for our friends and family, and we like introducing people to wines they often end up loving that they'd never before heard of or thought possible. But most of all, we think it perfectly complements a great meal--and we are huge foodies that appreciate a great meal. So wine is the natural extension of that enjoyment for us.

thucanhho

Awesome! Not interpreting that you would do the same but an investment banker quit his job to come work at Noma for nothing. I am occasionally tempt to stop operating to open a bakery. I have a standup and chest freezer full of french macarons from all the experimentation in flavors.

robyng

You're younger than I am. But still very much middle-aged (I'm past the middle now - unless I live to be 115 <LOL>). And - once one gets to our ages - most of us pretty much have our tipping rules in place. What we do - what we don't do. Makes it easy. Especially at home. When we go to countries we've never been to before - it can take a bit of learning to get up to speed. Good hotel concierge desks can come in handy there .

I know and understand a lot about wine - but unfortunately haven't been able to drink it without ill effects for a couple of decades now as a result of some medical issues I won't bore you with. I will not suffer (in the morning in the bathroom) for any form of "my art" (including eating or drinking). I also have a couple of very minor food issues. Luckily I am not one of those people who has a super serious food issue (like celiac disease or shellfish allergies) - and I'm not a food hypochondriac either. I love to dine - and cook - and eat almost everything. Although my husband and I eliminated brains from our "offal list" after "mad cow disease" reared its ugly head (we have a neurologist friend in Kentucky who's associated eating diseased brains - in his part of the world - squirrel brains - with very severe dementia). In any event - striking brains off our list of things to eat wasn't a big hardship .

When it comes to many of the better/best restaurants in the world - the most common complaints I read from people on the "restaurant" side of things in terms of wine are that people who "bring their own" tend to:

On the higher end of things - bring excellent/great bottles of wine that don't only not complement the food's that being served - but can easily overpower it. I can relate to this as a cook. The best cooking wines I've found for various dishes I make aren't excellent/great - or even very good on their own. Just "plonk" like Cavit Pinot Grigio. Or Fairbanks Ruby Port. I felt at peace with myself as a cook when I read this article (and have been at peace ever since ):

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/21/di...anted=all&_r=0

On the lower end of things - people bring mediocre of worse wines - - basically to save money.

I assume you're sophisticated/intelligent/old enough to avoid this syalla/charybdis. But - apparently - many diners aren't/can't.

My husband still drinks wine. And his experience both with wine pairings and/or ordering by the glass/bottle at high end restaurants has been mixed. Especially when it comes to wine pairing menus. As as result of too many not so great wine pairing menus - these days he usually orders wines by the glass with a meal. And will taste a bit of whatever is recommended (there's usually never a problem with this) before ordering a full glass.

Anyway - I can still drink spirits these days. And am glad to see the renewed interest in cocktails and the art of bartending at high end restaurants. Robyn

bhrubin

While I don't doubt that these can be true for people who bring their own bottles of wine to restaurants, I also know it us just as true for people who order wine from those same restaurants--ordering pricey bottles of wine they either assume are impressive or are better because of higher price or ordering cheaper bottles of wine from the menu to save money. Both can overpower or not necessarily match up with the dishes being served. Whether one brings their own wine or orders from the wine menu, these occasions happen all the time if I had to guess--especially since too many customers, even at the finest restaurants, do not necessarily follow the recommendations of the sommelier.

When we bring wine with us, we either order a meal that best matches the wine or we don't open the wine. When in doubt, we inquire of the servers and sommeliers about the dishes they think will pair best with the wines we've brought. Not too complicated for us. We've often returned home with a bottle or two of unopened wine that never quite fit the bill for what and where we were dining, and that's OK for us--akin to being better to have the condom and not need it than to not have the condom when you do need it. :-)

thucanhho

Never thought I would hear good wine and condom in the same breath. But come to think of it, it's not that farfetched, but I digress.

JohnRain

I completely agree. I was at the Steirereck just last week and was VERY disappointed. Food is OK (except for the bread & cheese selections which are amazing) but the service is lousy. It's a pity as the place was recently renovated and looks great, but it's definitely not a two star restaurant when it comes to service and clientele (woman in microshorts and man in shorts at two separate tables next to me).