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Originally Posted by raehl311
(Post 12261860)
Also, regardless of my elite level, I respect a business that deals with me the same way I deal with my customers - in a straightforward, honest manner. For example, when assessing a fee to change awards, do not claim it's to prevent inventory abuse when the solution doesn't accomplish your goal. When you decide to stop serving hot breakfast, don't send out an email saying it's because customers told you they appreciate healthy options. And when you make and announce changes, don't bury them in the middle of emails you know most of your customers don't read.
Further, I feel better about doing business with someone when they exhibit a certain level of competence. Communicate effectively! I'm actually DEFENDING DL over in the NW forum from a bunch of NW elites irked that the carry-over EQM option in the elite extraperks program was eliminated as a result of the introduction of rollover miles, when that's actually an IMPROVEMENT. DL just did a horrible job of communicating the change, first claiming it was a technical issue that the option went away and it would be back, then fessing up later that they were just canning the option entirely. If it's not coming back, don't tell people it's coming back! Negative reaction to the lie, along with a failure to show how the change was an improvement, blinded most to the fact that instead of having to choose carryover EQM instead of something else, now they get the carryover EQM ANYWAY (and more of it) and STILL get to choose something else! I will say that the vast majority of my issues fall into the areas of FF program (some on value, some on treatment of customers/communication) and SkyClub product degradation. There are lots of other things that are not as good as they used to be, but that's just the nature of the airline industry, and DL gets people from point A to point B just as well as any other carrier. But, when all carriers are pretty much equally good about getting you from one place to the other safely, that means if you don't want people just flying the cheapest ticket they can find, you need to offer something that distinguishes yourself from the other guy. Honest, effective communication with your customers is one of the things that can distinguish you from the other guy, and one of the best things about it is it's FREE! But for some reason DL insists on continuing to shoot themselves in the foot at nearly every opportunity. We get it, changes are necessary, but you can help yourself a lot by just telling it like it is the first time. 1. From what I have read, there was some definite abuse of the award changes, which did in fact screw up award availability for everyone else. I have read of all sorts of Book em and change em strategies by FTers. The canceled booking seats would then roll into the general pool, not back into the award pool. Every change also cost DL money in CSA having to manually make the changes. I don't see any untruths here. 2. They stopped serving hot breakfast on domestic flights and said that most customers appreciated healthier options. How do you know that 50%+ customers in a survey didn't respond more favorably to the healthier cold breakfasts? If only 40% of the customers were ordering the hot breakfast, and surveys said that most of those really didn't care if only the cold options were offered, and it saved the airline money, then I don't see it as either a bad business decision or bad communication. I don't see any untruths here. 3. I don't know what e-mail with buried changes in the text you are referring to at the end of that paragraph, as you were not specific. 4. DL promised the carry-over would be back, and it did return, as a regular benefit to all flyers, not just Elites. I thought the roll-over benefit was communicated clearly when announced, so I don't understand any gripe about it. The option was only canned because it became a regular benefit. You are telling me that there are people on the NW boards .....ing about that? Because they called it a roll over instead of a carry over? 5. SkyClubs are better than AA ACs and UA RCCs, and IMO equivalent to CO's clubs. I have read some people complaining about the changes in cheese types, cookie types, or other small amenities. If these are their biggest complaints, then they really don't have much to complain about. Delta's Skyclubs are more than competitive with the domestic USA competition. SCs in the USA are not going to suddenly get spreads like CX's Pier or Wing in HKG. So in short, I don't get what the problem is. |
Originally Posted by raehl311
(Post 12260678)
Since the PMU is a personal benefit to flyers, DL expects that they will be used by Elites for personal travel. It's not like you're going to use your PMU to save your company some money on a business seat. So the PMU leets DL make the price of a business seat a bit less for leisure travel without having to pay fare class games to keep their business fares higher when companies are actually buying business-class seats.
- If I am flying TATL with my wife and son, I cannot afford the $2500/person M-fare. Hence, we will buy the $800 sLUT fares and save 3x(2500-800)=$5100 or our money. - If the company (or a client) pays for a full fare F/BE ticket, I will play the "I am good boy" act and save them money. Hence, reducing DL's profit by a lot... |
Originally Posted by TheMadBrewer
(Post 12261303)
Or let me sell you my unused PMUs for whatever you'd pay for them.
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Originally Posted by PMMMDL
(Post 12261536)
For someone who flies at Gold level, I don't know what else you could want. DL gives Golds a very generous percentage of bonus miles, free bags, plus unlimited space available upgrades. That is as good or better than any other USA airline. What do you really expect for 50K MQMs per year?
Even though I do not seem to see eye to eye with PMMMDL, since he seems almost happy with what DL has done, still cannot figure that out, but I strongly agree with him for people under 100K (unless you fly mostly international where you should be looking at CO or AA for there co-pay option on any fare). DL's upgrade for middle tier is really quite good, no airline gives change fee waivers, etc. for middle tier. The only real benefit for AA with middle tier is the ability to use miles. DL is tons worse in that category for using miles, almost sickening. If you fly over 100K and have a choice it would be silly to stick it out with DL, their international upgrades are sad, between 100K and 125K you get free changes to awards with AA, etc. Of course, with AA you get free changes at any level, even base members, as long as starting and ending destinations stay the same, even dates changes, etc. area free. |
Originally Posted by thepla
(Post 12263397)
Of course, with AA you get free changes at any level, even base members, as long as starting and ending destinations stay the same, even dates changes, etc. area free. |
Originally Posted by PMMMDL
(Post 12262114)
Sorry, but you lost me on this one.
1. From what I have read, there was some definite abuse of the award changes, which did in fact screw up award availability for everyone else. I have read of all sorts of Book em and change em strategies by FTers. The canceled booking seats would then roll into the general pool, not back into the award pool. Every change also cost DL money in CSA having to manually make the changes. I don't see any untruths here.
Originally Posted by PMMMDL
(Post 12262114)
3. I don't know what e-mail with buried changes in the text you are referring to at the end of that paragraph, as you were not specific.
Originally Posted by PMMMDL
(Post 12262114)
4. DL promised the carry-over would be back, and it did return, as a regular benefit to all flyers, not just Elites. I thought the roll-over benefit was communicated clearly when announced, so I don't understand any gripe about it. The option was only canned because it became a regular benefit. You are telling me that there are people on the NW boards .....ing about that? Because they called it a roll over instead of a carry over?
Now when the 2009 EEP program was announced they changed the thresholds to match DL -- starting at 100K and going up by 25K (the Old EEP started at 60K and went up by 30K). One of the options listed was EQMs. Since you have to have requalified as Plat (100K) in order to receive them, there was really no need to use them in the current year -- that is, before DM was announced. Anyway, a while ago (month or so) somebody noticed that the EQMs were no longer listed as a EEP choice. When asked, we were told it was a "technical glitch" and the choice would reappear as soon as the fixed it. Now at this time time they had to know the details of the 2010 program (with "rollover") but didn't tell us that. By itself that might be overlooked as some person messing up, but with all the other examples of non-straightforward communication that just makes us even more suspicious. And the EEP EQM choice and the rollover EQM/MQM are not the same. If I change an award flight to a paid flight I will end the year at 125,400 EQM. (giving me a grand total of 400 rollover). I was counting on the EEP choice of 15K EQM to give me a leg up in 2010. So in my case, something was taken away from me, in mid year, and was misleading to boot. Sure, its valid under the T&Cs ("subject to change without notice") but in the 23 years I flew NW before the merger I can't remember a case where significant changes were made to the program in mid year. Since the merger there are many. Maybe you SM folks are used to that, but us from NW that seems not right. |
Originally Posted by TheMadBrewer
(Post 12263689)
We were told the free change/redeposit on awards was eliminated because a huge number of people were not actually taking their flight and depositing miles after the flight had departed. If that was the case, there are more obvious and direct methods to solve that problem -- like if you don't cancel before the flight leaves, lose the miles. Implementing changes fees for Plats when just trying to perfect a routing (i.e. no change in dates or destination), especially when months before the flight doesn't jive with the stated reason.
Booking flights you don't intend to use just in order to change them in the fiture screws everything up for everyone else, especially those of us that cannnot book 11 months in advance because we are on business trips.
Originally Posted by TheMadBrewer
(Post 12263689)
NW WP members learned of the removed of fee award changes/redeposits buried at about paragraph four of a periodic marketing email ("Deals of the Week" sort of thing). DL didn't confirm that this was actually the case for SM members until later, after a numerous questions from their members. I would add to this the change of fare classes for domestic mileage upgrades -- as far as I can tell it was never directly communicated to WP members but was just a change in the online T&C that an alert FTer happen to notice. Perfect legal but still somewhat sneaky.
Originally Posted by TheMadBrewer
(Post 12263689)
NW Elite Extra Perks -- EEP -- (similar to DL Threshold Awards) always included the option of EQMs. They were not "rollover" or "carryover" per se -- whenever you used them they immediately (within an hour) added to your EQM balance. Originally they were available starting at 60K and one year I ended up with 73K EQM and used my 2500 EQM in December to get me over the plat level. In other years, I didn't need the EQM at the end of the year and so used them in Jan to give me a (small) leg up on the new year. Now when the 2009 EEP program was announced they changed the thresholds to match DL -- starting at 100K and going up by 25K (the Old EEP started at 60K and went up by 30K). One of the options listed was EQMs. Since you have to have requalified as Plat (100K) in order to receive them, there was really no need to use them in the current year -- that is, before DM was announced. Anyway, a while ago (month or so) somebody noticed that the EQMs were no longer listed as a EEP choice. When asked, we were told it was a "technical glitch" and the choice would reappear as soon as the fixed it. Now at this time time they had to know the details of the 2010 program (with "rollover") but didn't tell us that. By itself that might be overlooked as some person messing up, but with all the other examples of non-straightforward communication that just makes us even more suspicious. And the EEP EQM choice and the rollover EQM/MQM are not the same. If I change an award flight to a paid flight I will end the year at 125,400 EQM. (giving me a grand total of 400 rollover). I was counting on the EEP choice of 15K EQM to give me a leg up in 2010. So in my case, something was taken away from me, in mid year, and was misleading to boot. Sure, its valid under the T&Cs ("subject to change without notice") but in the 23 years I flew NW before the merger I can't remember a case where significant changes were made to the program in mid year. Since the merger there are many. Maybe you SM folks are used to that, but us from NW that seems not right. What kind of strange and screwed up program was NW running. You just trieed to describe for me how it worked, and I still don't have a clue. Maybe it is the use of all the acronyms, but your paragraphs are unintelligable to the average person. Did NW distribute secret decoder rings with your cards? |
I've stayed out of this until now.
The poster directly above acts completely obtuse and incredibly argumentative. This is my observation not a personal attack. If you do not understand the difference in acronyms between the two programs, simply ask for an explanation before you jump in with the aggressive, argumentative comments that some of us believe are totally off the mark.
I spent portions of two days last week with a DL top-level flier discussing the problems as I see it with the DL program. We finally, with open minds, reached a common ground despite he being a predominately domestic traveler and the three people involved in the discussion being international (and BTW also leisure, not business travelers). If there was not something perceptually and factually wrong with the presentation of the program, there would not be the amount of noise about it. Many of us, as evidenced by comments in both forums, feel deceived by the methods utilized by Delta in respect to the integration of the two programs and the repeated lack of clarity in their explanations. The lack of respect evidenced by the backers of the program both corporate and travelers such as yourself is more than off-putting. Will this flier with an excess of 1,000.000 banked miles (700k burnt last year) and his wife with 500,000 (a couple of hundred thousand burnt last year) go to another program. The probability increases daily from the attacks within these threads (from both program's members) and the acrimony caused by DL's actions and the apologists among the elite level. I will end the year as a disgruntled DM probably with a status match to another carrier even though some of the members of this forum refuse to understand my (and others) perspective. |
Originally Posted by PMMMDL
(Post 12263850)
Booking flights you don't intend to use just in order to change them in the fiture screws everything up for everyone else, especially those of us that cannnot book 11 months in advance because we are on business trips.
I am one that takes a couple overseas great trips using miles. It is IMPOSSIBLE to put together a great trip with a < 24 hour layover and visiting another city correct the first time around. If DL / NW would give space early, like AA, and not wait until the last minute to open up seats than I would be able to get the flight I want first time and avoid changes. Let's see do I really want to fly ORD-MSP-CDG-CPH when it would be great to go ORD-ATL-CPH?????? I always figured better get the seat when available and watch for an opening and take it. If people are booking 2 or 3 trips because they are not sure where they want to go for a vacation they should be hammered. Why not charge $200 to redeposit and award and allow for changes at will to an itinerary where you are still going and coming back to the same place????? DL thinks their BC is so great, heck I'm on the route above, coming from the route I previously defined, in a 767 with recline seats and not lay-down. I had ORD-LHR-ZRH on AA on an undesirable time that would require a night in LHR. I watched and sure enough the late afternoon flight opened up and it was a free change. It would have been free even if I had 90,000 miles for my BC award only from CC purchases and never was on an AA plane before. One other thing... Look up an award at DL.COM and go to the page you select the flights and thando not go through with the purchase. Try in a day or two and it will magically go from low to med, those unethical you know what....... |
Originally Posted by PMMMDL
(Post 12263850)
Booking flights you don't intend to use just in order to change them in the fiture screws everything up for everyone else, especially those of us that cannnot book 11 months in advance because we are on business trips.
But, your assertion that people are 'booking flights they don't intend to use just in order to change them in the future' is missing the point. People book THE BEST ITINERARY THEY CAN FIND AND BOOK AT THE TIME. Partly because of a lack of availability and partly because DL's award booking engine does not work, it is simply not possible to book the award you want the first time, so you book the best award you can get. Then, if you can later find the award you actually wanted in the first place, either because availability opens up or the DL award booking tool stars align, then you change to that award instead. So, BOTH obstacles to people booking the awards they really want the first time are created by DL - either DL is restricting the inventory, or DL is failing to provide an award booking tool that works. Charging people to make changes that they are only forced to make because of your own actions is just plain wrong. If the problem was ACTUALLY people booking itineraries they did not intend to use, the simple, precise, and completely sufficient solution would have been fees for redeposits or origin/destination changes. The fact that that was not the policy put in place either means DL was not bright enough to come up with it (let's hope not, as it took me 30 seconds) or that they were just feeding us a line of bull for a fee grab. That line of bull was made doubly bad when DL gave back the unlimited fee waivers to DMs - pretty much proving the point that it was BS the first time around. Nobody is going to like program reductions, but we have to accept that in today's business environment that some program reductions are going to be a reality. We'll have to choose the program that works for us. But under no circumstances is DL helping itself by combining negative program changes with insultingly devious behavior. Being honest and straightforward with your customers is free. There's no reason not to do it, unless you're someone others should just plain not place trust in. Maybe you guys at DL are used to that treatment, but those of us from NW are used to NW following through with what they say they will do, and when they do make changes, communicating them in an honest, obvious, straightforward manner. THAT is a benefit that should be part of any elite program. |
Originally Posted by raehl311
(Post 12260745)
Says who? You keep saying all this, but you've got no information from a reliable source that says it's anything other than your personal guess.
Originally Posted by raehl311
(Post 12260745)
With all due respect, you're guessing. You've decided what you want to think, and you're interpreting everything in the light that leads to the conclusion you've already made.
I was simply attempting to get to the point where we were in agreement on what official statement you felt would clarify the confusion, state the factual situation, and then pursue getting that statement. Now I feel like it would only serve to provide personal creditability to me. I simply don't feel the need for that. So, I will now bow out of this discussion as I don't think I can add any additional value and I don't want to contribute to any additional speculation. Hopefully you will be successful in getting the clarity you are seeking. |
Originally Posted by raehl311
(Post 12264519)
We all agree that booking flights you don't intend to use is a bad idea. That's why, if it is actually a problem, we *ALL* support (or at least can understand) award redeposit fees and fees for changes to origin/destination.
But, your assertion that people are 'booking flights they don't intend to use just in order to change them in the future' is missing the point. People book THE BEST ITINERARY THEY CAN FIND AND BOOK AT THE TIME. Partly because of a lack of availability and partly because DL's award booking engine does not work, it is simply not possible to book the award you want the first time, so you book the best award you can get. Then, if you can later find the award you actually wanted in the first place, either because availability opens up or the DL award booking tool stars align, then you change to that award instead. So, BOTH obstacles to people booking the awards they really want the first time are created by DL - either DL is restricting the inventory, or DL is failing to provide an award booking tool that works. Charging people to make changes that they are only forced to make because of your own actions is just plain wrong. If the problem was ACTUALLY people booking itineraries they did not intend to use, the simple, precise, and completely sufficient solution would have been fees for redeposits or origin/destination changes. The fact that that was not the policy put in place either means DL was not bright enough to come up with it (let's hope not, as it took me 30 seconds) or that they were just feeding us a line of bull for a fee grab. That line of bull was made doubly bad when DL gave back the unlimited fee waivers to DMs - pretty much proving the point that it was BS the first time around. Nobody is going to like program reductions, but we have to accept that in today's business environment that some program reductions are going to be a reality. We'll have to choose the program that works for us. But under no circumstances is DL helping itself by combining negative program changes with insultingly devious behavior. Being honest and straightforward with your customers is free. There's no reason not to do it, unless you're someone others should just plain not place trust in. Maybe you guys at DL are used to that treatment, but those of us from NW are used to NW following through with what they say they will do, and when they do make changes, communicating them in an honest, obvious, straightforward manner. THAT is a benefit that should be part of any elite program. As far at the 2010 program benefits go, I am happy with it as far as Gold benefits are concerned....I think Delta's Gold benefits are comparable or better then the competition...though I fear a huge influx of new GM's in 2011 with the MQM rollover. For me its just the award booking engine and award availability that is beyond AWFUL. |
From what I understand (and I am sure to be corrected here if I am wrong) about award tickets is that if you change or redeposit your miles then DL will NOT replace the award seat back into award inventory, but put it into revenue inventory. This then causes fewer awards to be available when this action occurs, causing less award inventory overall than was before.
If the above is true, it seems that the problem with making changes/redeposits is not that PMs have been abusing the system by tweaking their intineraries, but that DL IT is unable to replace the award seat back into award inventory. If DL IT was able to replace the award seat back into the proper inventory, the same amount of seats would be available despite making little (or large) changes to your itinerary. So the question really is: Why can't DL fix their IT issues??? I am sick of "the merger" being the reason for DL's IT problems..... |
Originally Posted by secretsea18
(Post 12264931)
From what I understand (and I am sure to be corrected here if I am wrong) about award tickets is that if you change or redeposit your miles then DL will NOT replace the award seat back into award inventory, but put it into revenue inventory. This then causes fewer awards to be available when this action occurs, causing less award inventory overall than was before.
If the above is true, it seems that the problem with making changes/redeposits is not that PMs have been abusing the system by tweaking their intineraries, but that DL IT is unable to replace the award seat back into award inventory. If DL IT was able to replace the award seat back into the proper inventory, the same amount of seats would be available despite making little (or large) changes to your itinerary. So the question really is: Why can't DL fix their IT issues??? I am sick of "the merger" being the reason for DL's IT problems.....
Originally Posted by PMMMDL
(Post 12262114)
Sorry, but you lost me on this one.
So in short, I don't get what the problem is. I still can't figure out what you are talking about. I've read this 6 times and still don't have a clue. Whaaat?
Originally Posted by opushomes
(Post 12263898)
The poster directly above acts completely obtuse and incredibly argumentative. This is my observation not a personal attack. If you do not understand the difference in acronyms between the two programs, simply ask for an explanation before you jump in with the aggressive, argumentative comments that some of us believe are totally off the mark.
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Originally Posted by raehl311
(Post 12260745)
Says who? You keep saying all this, but you've got no information from a reliable source that says it's anything other than your personal guess.
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