Dawgfan6291

edit, im actually going to leave this one alone at this point. Getting way off topic.

Either way, -10 issues have nothing to do with MCAS.

emma dog

except….

Because the MCAS issues are seen by the FAA as a coverup by Boeing, and then there’s 787 issues as well that are also seen as a coverup by regulators and some in congress, the bar for certification of the -10 is MUCH higher than what would have been 5 years ago.

ATOBTTR

Pilot training costs are an issue when Boeing marketed and sold the MAX as requiring no additional training beyond a 2 hour course on an IPad and Boeing purposely hid things from the FAA (and by extension, the airlines) so as to convince the FAA to not require additional training for the 737 MAX as part of the 737 MAX certification and to keep the acquisition and lifecycle costs for the MAX more competitive with the competing Airbus products. Genuinely curious as to why you think that's not a Boeing issue.

Dawgfan6291

has nothing to do with the bar being higher or not.
Either its gets certified before the deadline or it gets EICAS.
5 years ago, had Congress changed the rules to require EICAS, Boeing would have been in the exact same situation. The door was closing, but Boeing decided to push it to the limit.
I took the post to mean Boeing paid the cost of training, and they don't.

Could a EICAS'd -10 be a issue? maybe. The biggest issue will be a re-design to add the system in. Airlines like Delta/United etc that are looking at MAX-10s would just operate the airplane in its own category. It happens all the time.....even when they don't have to.

Example at Delta, At one point Delta had 3 737 categories, even though they didn't have to do so. 732/733 steam (737) 733 glass (73G) and 737 next gens (73N). MD88 and MD90, at only 16 airplanes, were separate. Domestic 757/767 flying was one category (767) 767-300ER is one category (7ER) and 767-400ER is one category (765) etc. etc. United does some of this as well, IIRC.
So while its probably not ideal, it will still end up being cheaper than over paying for 321NEOs and/or waiting till 2028 to get them.


From the rumor mill I have heard, Delta is much more worried about the plane not happening and/or being pushed back several years than they are not being able to fly it with 73N pilots.
but most are still expecting Congressional relief packed into some bill that the sensational media doesn't notice because again, this has absolutely nothing to do with the MAX crashes. Just another case of congress "doing something" to do something.

exwannabe

For the original MAX, Boeing had a very large penalty with the WN contract if it was a new type to offset pilot training costs. The same type was a large selling point. You can bet that had they had to cough up that then other airlines would not have paid as much. So yes, it was Boeing's dollar.

I do understand that ECAS has nothing at all to do with the MAX MCAS system. My point though is if this bubbles up to a public issue then that distinction will not matter. That is reality.

I am not a 737 hater and I do realize the overall safety record is excellent. But i I have to fly the MAX-10 I will either have to stop drinking or wear Depends.

emma dog

Editing for clarity: The FAA is CLEARLY watching Boeing like a hawk for a variety of things. For example, the 787 deliveries remain delayed due to heightened supervision and FAA reluctance to sign off until all items are addressed. There was a WSJ article in the last couple of weeks that describes this.

As a result of this heightened supervision, certification of the -10 is taking longer than expected. Oh, and yes, the EICAS law change was a direct result of the 737MAX crashes.

jrl767

ftfy

emma dog

Nope. Law…. With subsequent regulations written for compliance.

Aircraft Certification, Safety, and Accountability Act. This is a broad stroke law addressing 37 different portions of the FAA’s review process. It changes a great many things inside Boeing as well as inside the Federal Aviation Administration.

readywhenyouare

A non-issue. The -10 will get an exemption. If the -8 and -9 are safe to fly without EICAS then so would the -7 and -10. EICAS is not a flight control system. It's a means of crew alerting. I would argue requiring EICAS on the -10 would make all variants of the Max less safe and cause crew confusion since it would be different from the -8 and -9.

lindros2

was it this hard to purchase, staff (pilot), certify, and fly aircraft 40 years ago?

flyerCO

No, but much fewer could even afford to fly back then.

readywhenyouare

I think we are going to see a switch to single pilot and eventually fully autonomous aircraft sooner than expected due to militant pilot groups. They are never satisfied and constantly want more and more money to do less work. Crew costs have already tripled over the last decade and they show no sign of backing down. We have already eliminated the positions of navigator, radio operator, and flight engineer due to changes in technology. So anyone who says never to eliminating one or more pilots is kidding themselves.

KDCAflyer

Lol this isn't happening for decades.

From a political standpoint, all the pilot unions have to do to defeat that proposal is run nonstop ads in the districts of every T&I Committee member. It's DOA.

readywhenyouare

People said the same thing about autonomous cars. Look where we are now...

You're forgetting the other side of the coin. When people can't afford to fly to go on vacation or visit family because the pilots are being paid $1500/hour you will see pressure on those same representatives to do something about it. There are more passengers than pilots. Easy to see how that goes.

GagaPilot

Airline pilot here… Just my two cents:

As much as I disagree with having single pilot ops, I’m sure it will be an eventuality, but probably not in our lifetimes. Too many political, technological, and social barriers. I feel that Airbus products are trending that way, but not Boeing. (Not saying one is better, but that’s sort of the direction they are going).

While I’d always love to make more money, I am quite happy with the salary I make. Instead, I’d rather have better work rules, more time off with family, and higher standards for dispatchers and schedulers that are often under qualified sadly.

Regarding the Max - I personally believe all planes should have some sort of EICAS system. It’s 2022 for crying out loud. We shouldn’t have to play “Where’s Waldo?” when a caution/warning illuminates. Having a centralized location for these alerts would be super beneficial. If that means more training to be qualified, then so be it.