Mountain Explorer

I guess I'm not aware of any exaggeration. I mean, top executives lied to regulators and pilots, directly resulting in 364 deaths, and sloppy manufacturing quality caused an explosive decompression which, incredibly fortunately, didn't take any additional lives.

I'm not sure how you could even exaggerate that, it's really unbelievable in its own right. But if you want to provide examples of exaggeration, I'd be curious. (I'm not interested in tabloids, only mainstream media).

lindros2

do they all have doors?

lindros2

China COMAC C919: "Hold my beer."
Russia: "No, hold my wodka."
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ational-trends

The Situation

It was spun a little nicer, but UA just told Boeing to give up on the max 10. UA converted their order to max 9s until the max 10 gets certified and reading between the lines of fluff, it seems that UA told Boeing to stop wasting their time and resources trying to get the max 10 certified because that is delaying max 9 production. An aircraft with any capacity that is delivered is much more valuable to United than an aircraft with the right capacity that may or may not be delivered at some point in the future, maybe never.

Also over the weekend, EB said he expects DL to begin receiving max 10s in 2027. I suppose that gives BA a little over 3 years and 9 months for that to be true. UA dropping their order could help speed up DLs deliveries, but also might persuade BA to can the program altogether (I am hoping for the latter). It also gives DL a lot of leverage to weasel out of the max contract and swap them for some widebodies.

ty97

UA didn't drop their order, but did tell Boeing to stop building 10s for them until it becomes clear that certification might occur. In the meantime, they are converting delivery slots to 9s as those slots arrive.

It's not a positive for the 10 by any means, but there really haven't been any positives for the 10 lately. I'm sure UA would still like to get some 10s, but they are being realistic that it won't happen anytime soon.

Mountain Explorer

Where are you getting this from? I see no indication that DL wants Boeing widebodies. DL could order Boeing widebodies today, they don't need leverage lol, Boeing would jump at that deal in a heartbeat. But DL isn't interested.

I also see no indication that DL cares what UA is doing. DL seems to want the Max 10. They aren't stupid, they fully understand there will be significant delays, but they still seem to want it, and they are adjusting their fleet plans to accommodate the delays.

The Situation

Kirby said that to save face for Boeing - the unfiltered information seems to suggest that UA told Boeing to stop building the 10s altogether.

I am getting it from following history of what DL says and does.

• For the last 15+ years, a large chunk of DL's fleet has been acquired through good deals (717's from Airtran, A220s that bankrupted Bombardier, etc)
• DL has not purchased any new aircraft from Boeing since the 739 deal, but has stated its important to be a customer of both manufacturers to maintain leverage in purchasing.
• DL has noticed that customers prefer Airbus a/c and seem committed to an Airbus fleet going forward, except where it is opportunistic (lion air 739s)
• DL always seems to have the inside scoop on aircraft news
• DL has a history of running its fleet much longer than competitors and just committed to major cabin refreshes on the oldest 738s, so those aircraft will be around a long time, making the max 10 order less valuable
• DL wanted to be the launch customer for the 757 replacement, but as the odds of a 757 replacement coming in the next few decades becoming less and less likely, and as more A321NEOs are added to the fleet, the max 10 order and any Boeing a/c become less valuable to DL
• While many years ago, DL stated they would add 787s to their fleet one day, as I think about it more, the likely transaction would be that DL would swap the max order to get great pricing on a 787 order. The 787s are very valuable to a lot of carriers around the world who have been waiting a long time - DL would swap the 787s with an order of Airbus from another carrier to get a great deal on the aircraft they really want.

When you add it all up, the MAX 10 order was only about leverage, playing the game and manipulating the system to get the best deal possible for something that probably was not the max 10. If it didn't work out, they would live with it, but DL plays too many games in this realm for things to be as they seem on the surface.

rylan

Not surprising that DL is becoming pretty much more of an Airbus customer. Just look at the offerings that Boeing has - 737s with quality issues, or a 787. There is really nothing to compete with the A350 or even A330. DL killed off the 777s and they don't use 787, so for widebody there is nothing but Airbus... and narrow body your choices are a garbage 787MAX from Boeing or A321s from Airbus.

rylan

PAYWALL link

MCO Flyer

The MAX is still important for DL thanks to the Airbus backlog in A321neo delivery slots. The entire reason for the MAX was the quick delivery slots (plus likely firesale price from Boeing). I’m sure Airbus would work with DL to squeeze in a few more A321neos in a priority slot but not a massive order like DL placed with the MAX.

lindros2

just google Russia airline incidents

moondog

That article didn't mention Comac, did it?

DLASflyer

Today we learned the CEOs of Alaska, American, Southwest and United were behind the ousting of Boeing's CEO and commercial airplanes CEO. Ed Bastian didn't participate in the meeting.

https://theaircurrent.com/industry-s...-kellner-pope/

DLASflyer

United has converted 110 Max 10s to Max 9s. Meanwhile I saw Ed on CNBC the other day saying "no one knows when" Max 10s will start to be delivered.

MCO Flyer

For DL, the MAX-10 was going to be in a “premium” heavy configuration with only 2 more total seats compared to the standard -900ER. DL switching to the MAX-9 would put a dent in those plans without either sacrificing seats or the premium heavy layout. Hopefully DL rides it out with the MAX-10 because we don’t need another 739 2.0 doing more transcons (which is what the goal of the MAX order).