Increased Turbulence Announcements Before Takeoff
Feb 18, 2020, 10:45 am
#31
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Feb 18, 2020, 11:38 am
#32
Join Date: Sep 2016
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I recently had a flight to EWR/ZRH where the turbulence forecast over the tracks was horrendous. 3-4 hours of moderate turbulence with no way around it. We briefed the passengers at the gate, before push, and during level off that it was going to be pretty rough for an extended period of time in about 2 hours into the flight.
As we coasted out, our dispatcher sent a report that the lower altitudes (F280-F300) are much better than the planned F350.
Requested lower and ended up flying at F290 where it was nothing worse than light chop here and there the whole way. Meanwhile our iPads kept showing red areas of turbulence nearly the entire ocean crossing. The other airplanes higher were getting beat up pretty bad and unable to descend to get out of it because of traffic like us.
Landed uneventfully in ZRH, after blocking in the three of us debriefed on what a great move that it was to opt to fly lower and adjusting our fuel consumption to make it work out. How this could have been a very long and uncomfortable night if we didn’t.
Minutes later as pax were deplaning a “Multi-Million Mile” passenger approached and accused me of deliberately lying; completely overdoing the turbulence reports to reduce workload for the flight attendants. “I’m onto your game and rest assured this seat belt sign abuse will be reported to United.”
There’s no winning in a situation like that and I just responded I’d try to do better next time, sorry about that. I was the one standing by the cockpit door as the other two pilots were packing their things up. They listened to this guy’s diatribe and I could hear them quietly laughing behind me.
Bottom line, can’t win for trying!
We don’t keep the seat belt sign on to create issues...honestly. If it’s bumpier than planned, sorry. If it’s smoother than reported, sorry. It’s also not a conspiracy against your bladders or a means to impede service.
As we coasted out, our dispatcher sent a report that the lower altitudes (F280-F300) are much better than the planned F350.
Requested lower and ended up flying at F290 where it was nothing worse than light chop here and there the whole way. Meanwhile our iPads kept showing red areas of turbulence nearly the entire ocean crossing. The other airplanes higher were getting beat up pretty bad and unable to descend to get out of it because of traffic like us.
Landed uneventfully in ZRH, after blocking in the three of us debriefed on what a great move that it was to opt to fly lower and adjusting our fuel consumption to make it work out. How this could have been a very long and uncomfortable night if we didn’t.
Minutes later as pax were deplaning a “Multi-Million Mile” passenger approached and accused me of deliberately lying; completely overdoing the turbulence reports to reduce workload for the flight attendants. “I’m onto your game and rest assured this seat belt sign abuse will be reported to United.”
There’s no winning in a situation like that and I just responded I’d try to do better next time, sorry about that. I was the one standing by the cockpit door as the other two pilots were packing their things up. They listened to this guy’s diatribe and I could hear them quietly laughing behind me.
Bottom line, can’t win for trying!
We don’t keep the seat belt sign on to create issues...honestly. If it’s bumpier than planned, sorry. If it’s smoother than reported, sorry. It’s also not a conspiracy against your bladders or a means to impede service.
In those situations I would imagine a pax can go to the bathroom if they need to or go to the galley to ask for food.....
Feb 18, 2020, 12:01 pm
#33
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A good lawyer I bet could overcome the motion. The light is on all the time, even when not needed. Thus passenger has no way of knowing if it's legit or not as to staying seated.
Feb 18, 2020, 12:27 pm
#34
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,601
I recently had a flight to EWR/ZRH where the turbulence forecast over the tracks was horrendous. 3-4 hours of moderate turbulence with no way around it. We briefed the passengers at the gate, before push, and during level off that it was going to be pretty rough for an extended period of time in about 2 hours into the flight.
As we coasted out, our dispatcher sent a report that the lower altitudes (F280-F300) are much better than the planned F350.
Requested lower and ended up flying at F290 where it was nothing worse than light chop here and there the whole way. Meanwhile our iPads kept showing red areas of turbulence nearly the entire ocean crossing. The other airplanes higher were getting beat up pretty bad and unable to descend to get out of it because of traffic like us.
Landed uneventfully in ZRH, after blocking in the three of us debriefed on what a great move that it was to opt to fly lower and adjusting our fuel consumption to make it work out. How this could have been a very long and uncomfortable night if we didn’t.
Minutes later as pax were deplaning a “Multi-Million Mile” passenger approached and accused me of deliberately lying; completely overdoing the turbulence reports to reduce workload for the flight attendants. “I’m onto your game and rest assured this seat belt sign abuse will be reported to United.”
There’s no winning in a situation like that and I just responded I’d try to do better next time, sorry about that. I was the one standing by the cockpit door as the other two pilots were packing their things up. They listened to this guy’s diatribe and I could hear them quietly laughing behind me.
Bottom line, can’t win for trying!
We don’t keep the seat belt sign on to create issues...honestly. If it’s bumpier than planned, sorry. If it’s smoother than reported, sorry. It’s also not a conspiracy against your bladders or a means to impede service.
As we coasted out, our dispatcher sent a report that the lower altitudes (F280-F300) are much better than the planned F350.
Requested lower and ended up flying at F290 where it was nothing worse than light chop here and there the whole way. Meanwhile our iPads kept showing red areas of turbulence nearly the entire ocean crossing. The other airplanes higher were getting beat up pretty bad and unable to descend to get out of it because of traffic like us.
Landed uneventfully in ZRH, after blocking in the three of us debriefed on what a great move that it was to opt to fly lower and adjusting our fuel consumption to make it work out. How this could have been a very long and uncomfortable night if we didn’t.
Minutes later as pax were deplaning a “Multi-Million Mile” passenger approached and accused me of deliberately lying; completely overdoing the turbulence reports to reduce workload for the flight attendants. “I’m onto your game and rest assured this seat belt sign abuse will be reported to United.”
There’s no winning in a situation like that and I just responded I’d try to do better next time, sorry about that. I was the one standing by the cockpit door as the other two pilots were packing their things up. They listened to this guy’s diatribe and I could hear them quietly laughing behind me.
Bottom line, can’t win for trying!
We don’t keep the seat belt sign on to create issues...honestly. If it’s bumpier than planned, sorry. If it’s smoother than reported, sorry. It’s also not a conspiracy against your bladders or a means to impede service.
It's almost like you guys have more data than the people on FlyerTalk who googled turbulence.
Like "chemtrails are real" fools.
"Meanwhile our iPads kept showing red areas of turbulence nearly the entire ocean crossing."
Have any of you never stepped outside and its raining, you pull up the weather app on your phone and you see no rain on the radar? Or you see rain on the radar and its not raining?
Technology on this stuff has come a LONG way, but it still is far from perfect.
Oh and as pointed out, the US has become super sue happy. Get up if you want when the light is on but if something happens good luck getting a single cent out of the airline.
For a historical perspective, the seatbelt sign was used much more sparingly before 9/11. In the 80's and 90's, the flight attendants would much more strict about being seated while the selt belt sign was on. Usually, it involved yelling and a stern announcement.
Since 9/11, I think the crew feels "safer" with the seatbelt sign on for the whole flight (or as much as possible). I'm not really sure wjy, bit that's just my observation. It does make it more difficult when you really need to use the lavatory.
Since 9/11, I think the crew feels "safer" with the seatbelt sign on for the whole flight (or as much as possible). I'm not really sure wjy, bit that's just my observation. It does make it more difficult when you really need to use the lavatory.
Or technology has changed since then and airlines/pilots/crew are getting better forecasting models than they did 30 years ago.
Feb 18, 2020, 12:36 pm
#35
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You mean airline employees aren't teaming up trying to screw over paying passengers? I AM SHOCKED!
It's almost like you guys have more data than the people on FlyerTalk who googled turbulence.
anyone going into the law suit thinking this happens will be made to look like fools by the airlines and their meteorologist.
It's almost like you guys have more data than the people on FlyerTalk who googled turbulence.
anyone going into the law suit thinking this happens will be made to look like fools by the airlines and their meteorologist.
Feb 18, 2020, 12:37 pm
#37
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Thanks for the perspective from the other side, many times we pax tend to assume the worst. Don't know if UA still has Ch 9., but I guess that MM guy wasn't tuned in.
Feb 18, 2020, 1:08 pm
#38
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Did you read his post?
"Meanwhile our iPads kept showing red areas of turbulence nearly the entire ocean crossing."
Have any of you never stepped outside and its raining, you pull up the weather app on your phone and you see no rain on the radar? Or you see rain on the radar and its not raining?
Technology on this stuff has come a LONG way, but it still is far from perfect.
Oh and as pointed out, the US has become super sue happy. Get up if you want when the light is on but if something happens good luck getting a single cent out of the airline.
"Meanwhile our iPads kept showing red areas of turbulence nearly the entire ocean crossing."
Have any of you never stepped outside and its raining, you pull up the weather app on your phone and you see no rain on the radar? Or you see rain on the radar and its not raining?
Technology on this stuff has come a LONG way, but it still is far from perfect.
Oh and as pointed out, the US has become super sue happy. Get up if you want when the light is on but if something happens good luck getting a single cent out of the airline.
Feb 18, 2020, 1:21 pm
#39
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,601
Lets see the data, actual data, that says this is the case. I'll wait.
Of course, which is why I'm somewhat dumbfounded. If you're sitting there in 3 hours of light chop, at some point in that time period I may make the executive decision that we can turn the seat belt sign off for a bit given the actual ride does not match the forecast. A forecast is great, but they're quite often not very accurate and I would take into account the real world conditions as opposed to what was expected. If the iPad shows no icing and yet the airplane is icing up like a popsicle, do you leave the anti-ice off?
If the company tells the pilot to turn the light on and the pilot just "makes an executive decision" then that pilot won't be a pilot very long.
PS, the forecasts coming out of Delta's meteorology department are some of the best. Quite a few airlines pay Delta very well for Delta to do it for them.
Feb 18, 2020, 1:53 pm
#40
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Okay, I'll bite.
Lets see the data, actual data, that says this is the case. I'll wait.
and then you cut the light out, hit heavy chop, someone (or multiple) people get hurt or worse...........and you just tossed your career right down the drain because you decide not to listen to the meteorologist who, at least at Delta, get paid very well to make that decision.
If the company tells the pilot to turn the light on and the pilot just "makes an executive decision" then that pilot won't be a pilot very long.
PS, the forecasts coming out of Delta's meteorology department are some of the best. Quite a few airlines pay Delta very well for Delta to do it for them.
Lets see the data, actual data, that says this is the case. I'll wait.
and then you cut the light out, hit heavy chop, someone (or multiple) people get hurt or worse...........and you just tossed your career right down the drain because you decide not to listen to the meteorologist who, at least at Delta, get paid very well to make that decision.
If the company tells the pilot to turn the light on and the pilot just "makes an executive decision" then that pilot won't be a pilot very long.
PS, the forecasts coming out of Delta's meteorology department are some of the best. Quite a few airlines pay Delta very well for Delta to do it for them.
With that said, I’ll usually do my own research before getting up to make sure we’re not about to fly over a thunderstorm or line of storms ahead of a cold front.
Feb 18, 2020, 1:57 pm
#41
Join Date: Oct 2017
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Wait... seatbelt signs on doesn't always mean flight attendants must remain seated right?
I think some people wouldn't know what to do with themselves if they didn't have a conspiracy to conjure up.
You are literally trusting the pilots with your life yet you can't trust their judgement on when the seatbelt signs should be illuminated or when they tell the FA to stay seated? Some people need to seriously give their head a shake.
I think some people wouldn't know what to do with themselves if they didn't have a conspiracy to conjure up.
You are literally trusting the pilots with your life yet you can't trust their judgement on when the seatbelt signs should be illuminated or when they tell the FA to stay seated? Some people need to seriously give their head a shake.
Feb 18, 2020, 2:16 pm
#42
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: SFO/TPA
Programs: DL PM
Posts: 199
Smooth flying overseas to AMS on DL, seat belt sign never goes off. FA's are busily running around taking care of business. There is no turbulence. Finally, I can hold it no longer and ask the FA if the there might come a time when the sign is turned off. She looks up at the signs, surprised, and asks me to hold on a minute. While she's gone, seat belt sign is turned off. She comes back and apologizes. The pilot just forgot. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
Feb 18, 2020, 2:49 pm
#43
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 78
On my most recent DL ATL-DCA flights, there has been an announcement that the skies are angry that day, my friends, and FAs will have to remain seated until the coast is clear. On a flight of this length, that has the potential to negatively impact beverage service. FWIW, on all three flights service in first seemed to continue as normal - the FA was up and about the whole flight (and bravo to them for that). In Comfort+ or whatever it's called now, FAs did manage a quick beverage service each time so I got one glass of wine out of it. I assume service in coach was extremely limited. The flights themselves never seemed to be particularly turbulent (and as one who sees turbulence as adding a little spice to a trip, I say that in my most disappointed voice)...
(Also FWIW I don't yet have mega-status on Delta or even mini-status, really, so I'm not one to get showered with upgrades - FCM is generally very reasonable, but with drinks gratis in Comfort Schmumfort or whatever it's called now, there doesn't really seem to be much point to paying to upgrade - but if hyper-vigilance over mean-girl clouds starts messing with the free drinks in Extra Special Comfort or whatever it's called now, that whole calculation goes out the window, presumably into possibly very rough air, maybe.
(Also FWIW I don't yet have mega-status on Delta or even mini-status, really, so I'm not one to get showered with upgrades - FCM is generally very reasonable, but with drinks gratis in Comfort Schmumfort or whatever it's called now, there doesn't really seem to be much point to paying to upgrade - but if hyper-vigilance over mean-girl clouds starts messing with the free drinks in Extra Special Comfort or whatever it's called now, that whole calculation goes out the window, presumably into possibly very rough air, maybe.
Feb 18, 2020, 5:01 pm
#44
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,601
not sure if you are serious.....
You guys (and/or girls) KNOW this happens all the time, let's see some data.
You are smarter than any pilot in the front of the plane. I just genuinely hope that when you, the million miler the pilot talked about and all the other "smartest person in the room" types are flying you don't get yourself hurt, someone else hurt or worse.
btw, your "research" has nothing to do with turbulence. Thunderstorms *can* produce it but so can many other things a weather radar app isn't picking up. But I'm sure you knew that.
Feb 18, 2020, 5:27 pm
#45
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In inferring that the quoted post had something to do with DL's meteorology department, you implied that.
Someone perhaps, everyone on what I assume was a TATL 767, zero percent.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/travel/trave...-belt-signs-on
Scenario like this could easily turn into a lawsuit.
You're contradicting yourself here. On one had you say this is pretty much a liability issue, on the other you imply that the flight deck is legitimately concerned about turbulence.
I trust the pilot to fly the plane, sure but I'm more than comfortable taking the risk to hop up and have a pee if the seat belt sign has been on for hours on end for no reason. Yes, if the aircraft is actually entering an area of severe weather or known severe to extreme turbulence, I'll hold it as long as I can, otherwise I'm not going to sit around playing that game should there potentially be turbulence two hours later. Virtually every other airline from every other country has no problem managing this issue and I don't see anything that implies there is any higher level of injury due to turbulence on non-US airlines.
Scenario like this could easily turn into a lawsuit.
and this is the rub that I knew was coming.
You are smarter than any pilot in the front of the plane. I just genuinely hope that when you, the million miler the pilot talked about and all the other "smartest person in the room" types are flying you don't get yourself hurt, someone else hurt or worse.
btw, your "research" has nothing to do with turbulence. Thunderstorms *can* produce it but so can many other things a weather radar app isn't picking up. But I'm sure you knew that.
You are smarter than any pilot in the front of the plane. I just genuinely hope that when you, the million miler the pilot talked about and all the other "smartest person in the room" types are flying you don't get yourself hurt, someone else hurt or worse.
btw, your "research" has nothing to do with turbulence. Thunderstorms *can* produce it but so can many other things a weather radar app isn't picking up. But I'm sure you knew that.
I trust the pilot to fly the plane, sure but I'm more than comfortable taking the risk to hop up and have a pee if the seat belt sign has been on for hours on end for no reason. Yes, if the aircraft is actually entering an area of severe weather or known severe to extreme turbulence, I'll hold it as long as I can, otherwise I'm not going to sit around playing that game should there potentially be turbulence two hours later. Virtually every other airline from every other country has no problem managing this issue and I don't see anything that implies there is any higher level of injury due to turbulence on non-US airlines.