Go Back  FlyerTalk Forums > Miles&Points > Airlines and Mileage Programs > Delta Air Lines | SkyMiles
Reload this Page >

Who's right, Delta or KLM? (Day of Departure GUC Upgrade Issues)

Community
Wiki Posts
Search

Who's right, Delta or KLM? (Day of Departure GUC Upgrade Issues)

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old Sep 22, 2018, 7:15 am
  #16  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Northern Calif./Eastern Ida.
Programs: Amethyst Premier Plutonium Medallion
Posts: 20,648
Originally Posted by TheHorta


Do you think it was KLM making a buck by selling off the available seats?




i would tell them thanks on the 10k but no thanks, and file 261

it doesn’t matter where your ticket originated-261 applies to EU departures

any number of shenanigans could have happened - doesn’t really matter - this was a clear downgrade and you should be eligible for cash and your GUC returned. Assuming I’m reading the code correctly which is never a guarantee.


pvn and TheHorta like this.
PV_Premier is offline  
Old Sep 22, 2018, 7:55 am
  #17  
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Seattle, WA
Programs: DL Diamond 1.7MM, Starlux Insighter, Bonvoy Titanium, Hilton Gold, Hertz PC
Posts: 3,949
I’d encourage you to file for EC261 downgrade compensation, mostly because receiving the claim will force KLM to answer for what they have done in this situation.

In the future, I probably would have focused my attention on talking to the gate agents dispatching the flight rather than the lounge folks, and I would have been pretty quick to demand that a DL red coat (who does exist in AMS) get involved...
TheHorta and eastindywalrus like this.
BenA is offline  
Old Sep 22, 2018, 7:57 am
  #18  
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Pagus Bracbatensis, Kingdom of the Netherlands
Programs: DL SPlat, KLM Bump, Privium Plus, GOES
Posts: 2,066
Originally Posted by PV_Premier


i would tell them thanks on the 10k but no thanks, and file 261

it doesn’t matter where your ticket originated-261 applies to EU departures

any number of shenanigans could have happened - doesn’t really matter - this was a clear downgrade and you should be eligible for cash and your GUC returned. Assuming I’m reading the code correctly which is never a guarantee.


Since the OP purchased a economy ticket and used a GUC to get into another class -no money, good luck with the EU261.

2.If an operating air carrier places a passenger in a classlower than that for which the ticket was purchased, it shallwithin seven days, by the means provided for in Article 7(3),reimburse
(a) 30 % of the price of the ticket for all flights of 1 500 kilo-metres or less, or17.2.2004L 46/5Official Journal of the European UnionEN
(b) 50 % of the price of the ticket for all intra-Community flights of more than 1 500 kilometres, except flights between the European territory of the Member States andthe French overseas departments, and for all other flightsbetween 1 500 and 3 500 kilometres, or
(c) 75 % of the price of the ticket for all flights not falling under (a) or (b), including flights between the European territory of the Member States and the French overseasdepartments.


Here you go sir, 75% of your GUC. Enjoy!
Still very poor handling of KLM but that seems their SOP




TheHorta likes this.
Grouchy is offline  
Old Sep 22, 2018, 8:00 am
  #19  
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 803
Originally Posted by zsmith2
I can guarantee you it was not poor exchange between systems.
sounds like some sort of shenanigans on the part of Klm. Most passengers wouldn’t know enough or be persistent enough to make an issue of it to the point of investigation so good job forcing the issue so that Delta can call out klm and hopefully it stops happening. On comp 10,000 miles is low.
TheHorta likes this.
tennessetom is offline  
Old Sep 22, 2018, 8:24 am
  #20  
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 159
DL was 100% incorrect here. 48 hours before departure, all Delta flights move into departure control and are handled by KLM in Altea DC. Seats and availability show in Delta's system what it was at the 48 hour mark.

Now Delta can still make changes 48-24 hours before departure, but they typically need to be done in KLM's system by a Supervisor or Ticketing agent with access. Otherwise it'll show good on the Delta end but the info won't push to KLM.

Within 24 hours, no changes can be made except at the airport. They should've never processed the GUC in the first place, as there's no way to know what availability then was and no way to reissue the ticket on the KLM side.
TheHorta likes this.

Last edited by WidgetTravels; Sep 22, 2018 at 8:31 am
WidgetTravels is offline  
Old Sep 22, 2018, 8:25 am
  #21  
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Minneapolis: DL DM charter 2.3MM
Programs: A3*Gold, SPG Plat, HyattDiamond, MarriottPP, LHW exAccess, ICI, Raffles Amb, NW PE MM, TWA Gold MM
Posts: 100,417
I'd file for EC261 downgrade compensation if the ticket was reissued into D1. You had a business class ticket. However, a problem will be 75% of what to determine compensation. There's been a lot of discussion in the BA forum about EC261 downgrade compensation calculation when people have upgraded with instruments or used 2 for 1 certs as well as for tickets paid with points/miles.

My guess is that KLM was selling cheap upgrades at the airport on the day of departure, as they do in AMS. However, it could have been shenanigans too.

How close to departure were you upgraded? By this, I mean do you know when the upgrade cleared? It sounds like the ticket was reissued into D1 during your (first?) phone call to the DM line from AMS airport, which I guess would have been about three and a half hours before departure. IIRC there's language in the T&Cs for using GUCs exAMS, so I wonder whether it was really too close to departure and perhaps the DL DM agents should not have processed the upgrade.

It might have been useful to look at the seat map on EF. You might want to read the thread here about buying cheap upgrades at the airport from KLM for D1 flights exAMS to get a sense to the typical timing, as my impression is that while it's better to ask earlier of course, such cheap upgrades tend to still be available about two hours before departure (assuming it's not a day when D1 is fully booked by passengers with confirmed D1 tickets).

However, since zsmith2 (welcome back!) says that DL was right and KLM was wrong, I will 100% go with that opinion as a statement of fact and insist that DL pursue this as well as compensating you appropriately (and hopefully making KLM pay the cost).

BTW, DL has a "station chief" or some similar reasonably high level manager at KLM. The guy seems to be Dutch (and perfectly bilingual of course) but apparently works for DL rather than KLM. In similar situations, one could try to ask to speak to this person.
TheHorta likes this.

Last edited by MSPeconomist; Sep 22, 2018 at 8:31 am
MSPeconomist is offline  
Old Sep 22, 2018, 8:35 am
  #22  
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Programs: DL PM 1MM
Posts: 3,441
Originally Posted by WidgetTravels
DL was 100% incorrect here. 48 hours before departure, all Delta flights move into departure control and are handled by KLM in Altea DC. Seats and availability show in Delta's system what it was at the 48 hour mark.

Now Delta can still make changes 48-24 hours before departure, but they typically need to be done in KLM's system by a Supervisor or Ticketing agent with access. Otherwise it'll show good on the Delta end but the info won't push to KLM.

Within 24 hours, no changes can be made except at the airport. They should've never processed the GUC in the first place, as there's no way to know what availability then was and no way to reissue the ticket on the KLM side.
+1

I think this is a correct description.

Day of Departure, DL cannot tell what the inventory is for any flight departing AMS. It has worked this way ever since the NWA/KLM joint venture two decades ago.

The only accurate DoD inventory is in Amadeus.
mnbp is offline  
Old Sep 22, 2018, 8:42 am
  #23  
Original Poster
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: HSV
Programs: Bellevue Lifetime Premiere Mega Elite Supreme
Posts: 1,509
Originally Posted by mnbp
+1

I think this is a correct description.

Day of Departure, DL cannot tell what the inventory is for any flight departing AMS. It has worked this way ever since the NWA/KLM joint venture two decades ago.

The only accurate DoD inventory is in Amadeus.
How do we handle this? I had a GUC applied weeks ago and I showed as waitlisted with the traditional twin itineraries listed in the app.

2-3 days out, there was still plenty of availability in J. Like J12 or something. I could still book tix in D1 at T-3 hours.

I asked KLM if I could pay cash or miles to UG at 9:30 AM for a 1:00 PM flight, but was told that D1 was now J0.

What’s a guy gotta do?
TheHorta is offline  
Old Sep 22, 2018, 8:45 am
  #24  
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Minneapolis: DL DM charter 2.3MM
Programs: A3*Gold, SPG Plat, HyattDiamond, MarriottPP, LHW exAccess, ICI, Raffles Amb, NW PE MM, TWA Gold MM
Posts: 100,417
Something else that seems wrong here is that if we take the statement that D1 was oversold by one, there should have been some criterion used to select the downgrade victim. DL rules would seem to say look at status, then fare class, etc. I wonder whether KLM applied their own rules to this DL flight (or ignored any rules whatsoever and just put who they wanted into D1) and if so whether their rules say that the person without a seat assignment is the loser. I suspect this violates DOT rules which require USA carriers to have published rules for IDB and downgrade priority and to follow those rules. AFAIK having the flight ground handled by a partner or flying from a foreign location to the USA would not create an "anything goes" exception. As I see it, OP had a confirmed D1 reservation and a matching (reissued) ticket but flew in a lower cabin class than what had been purchased (in terms of money + GUC).
MSPeconomist is offline  
Old Sep 22, 2018, 8:51 am
  #25  
Original Member
 
Join Date: May 1998
Location: Orange County, CA, USA
Programs: AA (Life Plat), Marriott (Life Titanium) and every other US program
Posts: 6,411
Okay, what am I missing? Maybe I am just assuming too much context. But one poster has made it clear, twice, that DL was correct. I realize that we get all sorts of opinions from all sorts of people, many of which are totally wrong. But, as a "professional guesser" I am going to say that I give credit to that poster so I think the implication is that the seats WERE available and that a large number of employees/friends got upgraded improperly (or something like that).
MSPeconomist likes this.
sbrower is offline  
Old Sep 22, 2018, 8:53 am
  #26  
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Minneapolis: DL DM charter 2.3MM
Programs: A3*Gold, SPG Plat, HyattDiamond, MarriottPP, LHW exAccess, ICI, Raffles Amb, NW PE MM, TWA Gold MM
Posts: 100,417
Originally Posted by TheHorta


How do we handle this? I had a GUC applied weeks ago and I showed as waitlisted with the traditional twin itineraries listed in the app.

2-3 days out, there was still plenty of availability in J. Like J12 or something. I could still book tix in D1 at T-3 hours.

I asked KLM if I could pay cash or miles to UG at 9:30 AM for a 1:00 PM flight, but was told that D1 was now J0.

What’s a guy gotta do?
Look at the T&Cs for using GUCs on DL operated flights exAMS. The usual gate waitlist rules for using GUCs that clear at the gate for flights exUSA don't apply in this case. You were right to ask KLM about using miles and/or money (depending on your fare class), but I'm suspicious about there being no availability for someone asking four and a half hours before the flight as most people wouldn't have arrived at the airport so early.

It's too bad you didn't check J availability closer to departure, but how do you know it was J12? The most inventory that EF ever shows is 9 and counting empty seats on a seat map is meaningless. Note that fare class availability isn't additive, so seeing C9 and D3 doesn't imply J12.

To me, it looks like KLM decided to give the remaining D1 seats to their own nonrevs or friends and family.
MSPeconomist is offline  
Old Sep 22, 2018, 8:57 am
  #27  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Hilton Contributor Badge
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: San Antonio
Programs: DL DM, Former AA EXP now AY Plat, AC 75K, NW Plat, Former CO Gold, Hilton Diamond, Marriott Titanium
Posts: 27,047
Originally Posted by WidgetTravels
DL was 100% incorrect here. 48 hours before departure, all Delta flights move into departure control and are handled by KLM in Altea DC. Seats and availability show in Delta's system what it was at the 48 hour mark.

Now Delta can still make changes 48-24 hours before departure, but they typically need to be done in KLM's system by a Supervisor or Ticketing agent with access. Otherwise it'll show good on the Delta end but the info won't push to KLM.

Within 24 hours, no changes can be made except at the airport. They should've never processed the GUC in the first place, as there's no way to know what availability then was and no way to reissue the ticket on the KLM side.
DL wouldn't be able to sell a last minute/day ticket if this is the case. The fact the KLM showed as -1 means that DL was correctly selling and transmitting. However KLM wasn't updating DL075 inventory. While seat map and flight control goes to KLM, who handle everything as KL6013, inventory should still be updated on DL075. I'm curious if upgrades were processed correctly.
MSPeconomist likes this.
flyerCO is offline  
Old Sep 22, 2018, 8:58 am
  #28  
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Minneapolis: DL DM charter 2.3MM
Programs: A3*Gold, SPG Plat, HyattDiamond, MarriottPP, LHW exAccess, ICI, Raffles Amb, NW PE MM, TWA Gold MM
Posts: 100,417
Originally Posted by PV_Premier


i would tell them thanks on the 10k but no thanks, and file 261

it doesn’t matter where your ticket originated-261 applies to EU departures

any number of shenanigans could have happened - doesn’t really matter - this was a clear downgrade and you should be eligible for cash and your GUC returned. Assuming I’m reading the code correctly which is never a guarantee.



EC261 requires compensation/refunds in cash. Accepting miles as a customer service gesture doesn't diminish EC261 obligations unless the passenger signs them away.

I agree that 10,000 RDMs doesn't seem adequate for a downgrade from D1 (to C+ I assume, seat 21B IIRC: BTW was this the OP's original seat assignment for this segment?) on a TATL flights, but letting the miles hit the OP's FF account shouldn't mean that the case is closed.
MSYtoJFKagain likes this.
MSPeconomist is offline  
Old Sep 22, 2018, 8:59 am
  #29  
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: PHX
Programs: AS 75K; UA 1MM; Hyatt Globalist; Marriott LTP; Hilton Diamond (Aspire)
Posts: 56,478
Originally Posted by PV_Premier
i would tell them thanks on the 10k but no thanks, and file 261
Take the 10k and file for EU261.
MSPeconomist and hi55us like this.
Kacee is offline  
Old Sep 22, 2018, 9:07 am
  #30  
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 159
Originally Posted by flyerCO
DL wouldn't be able to sell a last minute/day ticket if this is the case. The fact the KLM showed as -1 means that DL was correctly selling and transmitting. However KLM wasn't updating DL075 inventory. While seat map and flight control goes to KLM, who handle everything as KL6013, inventory should still be updated on DL075. I'm curious if upgrades were processed correctly.
New reservations are handled differently, though I admit I don't know how.

But revenue changes, including IROP changes, won't work within 24 hours of departure on the Delta side.

Last edited by WidgetTravels; Sep 22, 2018 at 10:21 am
WidgetTravels is offline  


Contact Us - Manage Preferences - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

This site is owned, operated, and maintained by MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Designated trademarks are the property of their respective owners.