Who's right, Delta or KLM? (Day of Departure GUC Upgrade Issues)
Sep 22, 2018, 2:03 pm
#46
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The OP already stated in reply #33 above that he was not in Y (C+), but was in regular economy with seat 21B on an A333. I'm not sure whether this makes any difference here.
For your review:
Sep 22, 2018, 2:07 pm
#47
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I wouldn't ask directly but you could remark that you're curious about why you were downgraded with a confirmed D1 reservation and reissued ticket in D1 as you understand that DL normally uses status as an important factor in determining IDVs and downgrades, so it's hard to believe that the entire D1 cabin consisted of DMs today. The response could be interesting.
The purser seems very good and you don't want to put her into an awkward position with colleagues, nor should she tell you any details about the status/tickets of others.
BTW, is there a chance that you had already been upgraded (GUC cleared) before you called the DM line, but your ticket hadn't yet been reissued? My understanding is that GUCs aren't supposed to clear (except possibly at the airport) exAMS with timing something like 24 hours, airport control (which AFAIK can be more than 24 hours), after OLCI opens (might be 30-48 hours for KLM), day of departure, after check in, or at the airport (but if you call, how do they know whether you're at the airport?), so I'm wondering how yours could have cleared when you called. One possibility might be that the GUC had already cleared before the deadline, but you weren't aware of it until you called.
The purser seems very good and you don't want to put her into an awkward position with colleagues, nor should she tell you any details about the status/tickets of others.
BTW, is there a chance that you had already been upgraded (GUC cleared) before you called the DM line, but your ticket hadn't yet been reissued? My understanding is that GUCs aren't supposed to clear (except possibly at the airport) exAMS with timing something like 24 hours, airport control (which AFAIK can be more than 24 hours), after OLCI opens (might be 30-48 hours for KLM), day of departure, after check in, or at the airport (but if you call, how do they know whether you're at the airport?), so I'm wondering how yours could have cleared when you called. One possibility might be that the GUC had already cleared before the deadline, but you weren't aware of it until you called.
Sep 22, 2018, 2:09 pm
#48
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Did you purchase a FULL Y ticket? I'm forgetting now whether KLM boarding passes really show the fare class booked, or just the cabin class, perhaps with Y for close to full fare and M (IIRC I've seen this on KLM) for discounted (but not BE) coach. The Y could be evidence that KLM indeed did rebook you into coach.
Sep 22, 2018, 2:17 pm
#49
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Did you purchase a FULL Y ticket? I'm forgetting now whether KLM boarding passes really show the fare class booked, or just the cabin class, perhaps with Y for close to full fare and M (IIRC I've seen this on KLM) for discounted (but not BE) coach. The Y could be evidence that KLM indeed did rebook you into coach.
Sep 22, 2018, 2:28 pm
#51
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For what's it worth. KLM cancelled some 100 flights yesterday due to a storm this Friday September 21st. I can imagine a lot of people got rebooked on flights leaving today, filling up some of those cabins that did have 10+ open seats pretty quick.
Sep 22, 2018, 2:35 pm
#52
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Actually, that makes a lot of sense. Probably the most plausible explanation.
Sep 22, 2018, 3:38 pm
#53
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Obviously the opportunity to fly in D1 has passed for this trip. Compensation via EC261 doesn't seem likely to lead to much, since there was no cost associated with the upgrade. The main recourse is bonus miles.One could say "Thanks for the 10k bonus miles, but that's not enough because...". And then it's hard to justify the "because...". I have or have heard of others getting more, and I'm greedy? I was deluded for a couple of hours about the quality of my TATL? I spent 3 hours in fruitless conversation with DL / KLM agents about as clueless as me, when I could have been enjoying the KLM lounge? I would either drop it (for my own sanity) or leave it at "Thanks for the 10k bonus miles, but that's not enough" without any "because...", and being happy with wherever that goes.
For future trips / lessons learned for others, I guess it is that a GUC that clears 24 hours before departure is great. A GUC at 24 hours and closer to departure requires interaction with KLM, especially the gate agents and against really unknown rules; interacting with Delta (at whatever level) really is not definitive.
My own recent experience ex-AMS was to be assigned a D1 seat at the gate, to occupy it and take the first sip of a PDB, and then to be asked to do the 'walk of shame' back to (a relatively open) C+ because 'an error had occurred'. What's a person to do? I didn't ask to speak to a 'red coat', I didn't file an EU261 complaint, I didn't ask Delta to provide a customer service gesture. I marveled to myself at the negative experience and added it to my now quite complicated set of rules for airline, flight, and route selection.
For future trips / lessons learned for others, I guess it is that a GUC that clears 24 hours before departure is great. A GUC at 24 hours and closer to departure requires interaction with KLM, especially the gate agents and against really unknown rules; interacting with Delta (at whatever level) really is not definitive.
My own recent experience ex-AMS was to be assigned a D1 seat at the gate, to occupy it and take the first sip of a PDB, and then to be asked to do the 'walk of shame' back to (a relatively open) C+ because 'an error had occurred'. What's a person to do? I didn't ask to speak to a 'red coat', I didn't file an EU261 complaint, I didn't ask Delta to provide a customer service gesture. I marveled to myself at the negative experience and added it to my now quite complicated set of rules for airline, flight, and route selection.
Please re-read #35 above for an explanation of what OP is due by way of a refund. The use of a GUC to pay for the upgrade and how one might value a GUC is a fun fantasy discussion, but has nothing to do with the simple calculation of the refund required by EC 261/2004. That cost is based on the cost of the ticket, not the cost of the upgrade.
Having the GUC redeposited is a simple contractual obligation of DL.
When DL pays OP's claim, it may or may not pull the miles it has tossed his way.
Sep 22, 2018, 4:54 pm
#55
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Something else that seems wrong here is that if we take the statement that D1 was oversold by one, there should have been some criterion used to select the downgrade victim. DL rules would seem to say look at status, then fare class, etc. I wonder whether KLM applied their own rules to this DL flight (or ignored any rules whatsoever and just put who they wanted into D1) and if so whether their rules say that the person without a seat assignment is the loser. I suspect this violates DOT rules which require USA carriers to have published rules for IDB and downgrade priority and to follow those rules. AFAIK having the flight ground handled by a partner or flying from a foreign location to the USA would not create an "anything goes" exception. As I see it, OP had a confirmed D1 reservation and a matching (reissued) ticket but flew in a lower cabin class than what had been purchased (in terms of money + GUC).
She tried to argue I had a main cabin ticket until she saw our tickets were in Z class. She wouldn't budge or offer comp and put one of us in main cabin
Should they have followed downgrade protocol here too?
Sep 22, 2018, 5:06 pm
#56
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I can’t remember who, but someone here had a similar situation here and they downgraded the comp upgrade to give the paid F customer the seat.
I wouldn’t be happy. Much different case from mine.
I wouldn’t be happy. Much different case from mine.
Sep 22, 2018, 6:47 pm
#57
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Yet at the gate, a main cabin seat assignment was given to a DM holding a D1 ticket. Whether it's GUC or paid D1, neither is acceptable whatsoever
They should have downgraded someone else in either of our cases but for some reason refused to
Sep 22, 2018, 6:59 pm
#58
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I just purchased two last minute J seats when the flight showed J3. Got to the gate about 25 minutes from departure to find out the Red Coat had only 1 J seat left and had already upgraded someone into the other one.
She tried to argue I had a main cabin ticket until she saw our tickets were in Z class. She wouldn't budge or offer comp and put one of us in main cabin
Should they have followed downgrade protocol here too?
She tried to argue I had a main cabin ticket until she saw our tickets were in Z class. She wouldn't budge or offer comp and put one of us in main cabin
Should they have followed downgrade protocol here too?
Sep 22, 2018, 7:23 pm
#59
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I just purchased two last minute J seats when the flight showed J3. Got to the gate about 25 minutes from departure to find out the Red Coat had only 1 J seat left and had already upgraded someone into the other one.
She tried to argue I had a main cabin ticket until she saw our tickets were in Z class. She wouldn't budge or offer comp and put one of us in main cabin
Should they have followed downgrade protocol here too?
She tried to argue I had a main cabin ticket until she saw our tickets were in Z class. She wouldn't budge or offer comp and put one of us in main cabin
Should they have followed downgrade protocol here too?
AFAIk DL is always obligated to follow its own DOT approved and published rules for IDBs and involuntary downgrades. EC261 only applies to DL operated flights that depart FROM the EU and certain other countries that aren't EU members but have chosen nevertheless to follow EC261 regulations, IIRC including Switzerland and Turkey. The UK might soon be added to the list (or not).