thesaints

except that C+ is not really a separate cabin. If VS can have extra-legroom seats, I don't see why DL couldn't keep a few rows of C+.
As others have pointed out, not having C+ on long-range flights is a bad blow for all Medallions (DM only get a maximum of 4 GUC/year). In addition it is also a blow for "kettles" as they lose the option of paying a nominal sum to upgrade to a better seat.

bost

Yep, we're full-circle to traditional 3-class, just with different names.

ethernal

I agree in principle (which is why I put cabin in quotes) - but with the way that Delta markets Comfort+ it is a separate cabin... and that matters because Delta doesn't want to have too many options for booking.

If Delta kept Comfort+, Delta would have five options on international flights:

• Basic Economy
• Main Cabin
• Comfort+
• Premium Select
• Delta One

My bet is that marketing believes that having five options will only deter customers (too many options leads to lower buy rates because people feel less comfortable they are making the right decision). Delta probably also doesn't want to try to do pricing analytics and revenue management on five different fare classes (especially with Comfort+ "stuck in the middle" and losing a lot of the capacity to at-booking Medallion upgrades). This is also ignoring the difficulty of marketing these seats (presumably outside of delta.com they would have to go back to marketing C+ as a seat sell-up only - Delta is already taking up all the class codes possible).

In addition, due to the high Medallion penetration on those seats, Delta probably loses money per square foot of space on them versus adding an extra row of regular Y seats.

Reality is that this is just another big devaluation of Medallion benefits. Aggressive FCM and Basic Economy was a big hit to Medallions (especially domestically), and this is another big hit (internationally). Combined with the shrinking D1 cabins and terrible b-class SkyMiles redemption, I don't really know what Medallion status really gets you.

In practice I get more benefits out of the United points and benefits I earn my UA Gold stauts and from my CSR than I do as a Diamond Medallion.

jdrtravel

I get the frustration about C+ but I am personally VERY happy to see the expansion of true W class across the DL fleet and across multiple airlines. Remember that many of us have been asking for this for years. This is a win because this is a comfortable way to cross the ocean that many more people can actually afford.

To me C+ is just a coach seat and I can get the same thing from an exit row or bulk head. If they keep main cabin pitch at 31" and maybe 32" there's really no issue there.

My guess is that the next shoe to drop will be elimination of domestic F on short haul/medium haul routes and Euro style moveable wall J called C+ put in it's place.

meh130

One is revenue. There are many companies who will not pay for business class. This is why Delta started reducing the size of J cabins on many routes. However, there is the possibility those same companies might consider paying for W.

The second is consuming miles (and reducing DL's financial liability carrying those miles). There are plenty of business travelers who would use their miles to upgrade a company paid Y ticket to W.

An airline is entirely in the business of revenue management.

xliioper

Ever purchased a VS "extra legroom" Economy Delight seat? I've flown it a few times and the FA's do nothing to protect it. In fact, they tell the pax in regular economy that they can go ahead and take any open seat in Economy Delight as soon as boarding is finished.

MCO Flyer

dinanm3atl

I really liked C+ on the long hauls. I haven't tried PS but for 100-200 each way I would do it. However I am seeing MUCH more than that on many routes that I have looked at. As others have said some business class offerings are cheaper or similar priced. So what is the point of the PS?

ethernal

3" and an extra 2" recline is a significant difference. 31" seat pitch is unacceptable for anyone above a certain height. 34"-35" is much more tolerable.

Unlikely - the US air travel market is very different than the EU for structural reasons. F isn't going away.

bennos

From my perspective it's not so much about the width of the seat as how crowded the cabin feels. With 2-3-2, there's 1 middle seat, and that person has two equivalent exit routes (ie: if either aisle person gets up, the middle can get up easily). There's also less contention for OHB and toilets, and service goes faster (since either FA can serve the one middle). When flying W, I (eg) try to avoid the AF 777 in favor of the A330, A380, and 787 where possible.

JV Partner VS has five options on international flights: Economy Light (BE), Economy Classic (MC), Economy Delight (Y+), Premium Economy (PS), and Upper Class (D1).

JV Partner AF has six options on international flights: Economy (fee for seat selection), Economy Flex (includes seat selection), Seat Plus/Duo/etc (Economy fare + fee for "good" seats), Premium Economy, Business, and La Premiere.

If DL doesn't offer C+, it because the incremental income they expect doesn't justify the cost.

I agree with your overall point, but the OP said it all: "They’re very pleased with the revenue premium". People are paying for the seats, and at a rate that justifies the (moderately) increased space and the (moderately) increased service.

jdrtravel

Sure, I like the extra few inches, but in reality it's all terribly uncomfortable for a long haul flight. My point is that I would much rather have the option to purchase a product that is a) actually comfortable for a long haul flight and b) reasonably affordable (and I know that spending $2K is not affordable for all, but it's much more doable than $6K for D1).

C+ is just not nice enough to really justify $100+ each way over coach pricing for most people, so my guess is that's it's mostly a free giveaway to PM/DM's and not a great revenue generator because at the end of the day it's just a coach seat that most are not willing to pay extra to sit in.


If you are comparing the price of PS to highly discounted advanced purchase fares than yes, it's going to be a lot more. But I don't think the target customer is someone who is buying $600 TATL tickets 4 months in advance of travel. Rather, I think the target customer is someone who can spend $1800-$2200 instead of $1400 for a business trip. It's just not going to, on any regular basis, be just 100-200 more each way. That's C+ pricing. Remember, this is a product that is essentially the same as domestic F.

My spouse works for a tech startup and because the company is not yet profitable, the travel policy is rather economical, and does not permit J class travel regardless of trip length except for C-suite execs. However, I can absolutely see them permitting permitting W travel for overseas trips as a reasonable compromise.

ethernal

And yet if I search for AF fares on Delta.com they reduce the option set when showing results - even on planes configured with more options. So my point remains.

I think we're saying the same thing.


Which is what I said in an earlier part of the thread: let's call it what it is, which is a huge devaluation of Medallion benefits. We all know most C+ seats went to PM/DM and Delta is eliminating that as an option for Medallions.

It's hard to say that this product is Domestic F - it would require significantly greater seat width to call it an F-equivalent. From a cost profile perspective, PS only costs 36% more plane square footage to Delta than a Y seat while an F seat costs Delta 85% more plane square footage. PS is equivalent to a 3-2 arrangement on a 3-3 narrowbody. If they've convinced you the two seats are equivalent, they've done a bang up marketing job.

HornsKeith

I agree with this. PS is a nice compromise for more comfort and better sleep, especially for business's that aren't close to springing for J.

Keith

jdrtravel

Well, you're only talking about the A350 here. We don't know exactly what the width will be on the 777 or other a/c, and remember they are now using the domestic F 757 cabin for some TATL PS flights, and I would expect to see more of this. It's true that A350 PS width of 18.5"-19" is 1.5"-2" less width than domestic F, but I'm not sure if that is as "significant" as you claim (though I would certainly prefer 21"). Also remember that the A350 and other wide-body PS seats coming online will have a leg-rest which domestic F does not. In all other ways they are basically the same product.

GoAmtrak

Also not all domestic F are created equal. A350 PS beats the pants off the (admittedly outgoing) domestic 763s and arguably the older 737 variants.