Delta to add Seattle-Osaka, Drops SEA-HKG
Jun 16, 2018, 3:31 pm
#181
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: DFW
Programs: Non-Affiliated
Posts: 7,430
Yes, in fact NW and KL were so closely integrated that it was almost as if it was one airline. In my, and most other passengers' eyes, NW and KL were an integrated whole. Not just in terms of aligned schedules and seamless ticketing and KL service in EU for NW customers and vice-versa in US (NW service for KL customers), each issuing and being able to control tickets on the others' stock, but also product alignment. For example, same World Business Class service name and in flight hard product on NW and KL.
NW and KL were the world's first and most tightely integrated airline pair - quite ahead of their time. Then came DL and caused some real rifts..didn't destroy it, no, but sure made it less effective and less seamless, product and service alignments were gone as DL kept Deltifying and downgrading the service levels and brought in the "BusinessElite" aircraft with last-decade hard product, and so on.
NW and KL were the world's first and most tightely integrated airline pair - quite ahead of their time. Then came DL and caused some real rifts..didn't destroy it, no, but sure made it less effective and less seamless, product and service alignments were gone as DL kept Deltifying and downgrading the service levels and brought in the "BusinessElite" aircraft with last-decade hard product, and so on.
But the draw down of NRT was inevitable. Prior to the merger there was plenty of talk of overflying NRT using the 787. It's a shame NWA (airline, not rap group) never got to take delivery of them. I have a model painted in NWA colors.
Jun 16, 2018, 9:39 pm
#182
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: SEA
Programs: AS G100K, DL PM, IHG Gold, HHonors Diamond
Posts: 843
Disappointing news, as Seattle is the only major west coast cities that have not been saturated with TPAC flights (Bay Area is well served by SFO-Asia flights, so numbers of flights going out of OAK and SJC doesn't matter as much). SEA is well positioned to serve HKG, so I am surprised DL's build-up in SEA did not provide enough feeder traffic and yield to sustain this 6 flight a week route. I guess reducing weekly frequency still could not justify their business decision. Well I guess I need to compare if flying through ICN makes more sense than catching CX or UA at SFO on way to HKG.
i still don't understand why they swap out the 332 with 777 after the winter.
i still don't understand why they swap out the 332 with 777 after the winter.
Jun 16, 2018, 11:48 pm
#183
Join Date: Mar 2010
Programs: DL PM, Bonvoy Gold
Posts: 8,414
With all the bickering back and forth, it doesn't seem anybody has done any back of the envelope math. SEA-HKG is 6485 miles. DL's CASM ex-fuel in 2017 was 10.57. Assuming CASM is in line with average and assuming the small 332, the cost of a one way flight, not including fuel, $160K. Fuel probably added ~20% to cost in 2017, probably higher now. Let's assume DL sells 30 J seats at an avg cost of $3,000 OW and all 200 Y seats for a $400 OW avg. With mileage tickets and non-revs, there is no way that these numbers are as high as my model. That flight generate $180K in revenue, but its probably costing $200K each way to run. So that roundtrip flight is losing $40,000 every single day. No matter how important certain customers think they are, you cannot justify the business case for a $40,000 bath every single day.
You don't include any cargo revenue in your calculation. Surly this must be a fairly significant factor on a route like this, right?
Jun 17, 2018, 12:59 pm
#184
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Tokyo
Programs: DL Diamond, ANA Platinum
Posts: 1,532
Anyone here think DL can realistically turn a profit on SEA-KIX?
Even LAX didn't get a KIX flight until 2015 when JAL reentered after nearly a decade. I actually rode the flight the other day and it's on a low-density 787 with an ancient business class product. With JL starting an LCC in 2019, I have little doubt the KIX route gets passed onto it.
Then there's SFO-KIX, which is longstanding, but UA's SFO hub is a beast (unlike SEA, as we've learned).
Even BA doesn't fly to KIX (although IMO they should).
Even LAX didn't get a KIX flight until 2015 when JAL reentered after nearly a decade. I actually rode the flight the other day and it's on a low-density 787 with an ancient business class product. With JL starting an LCC in 2019, I have little doubt the KIX route gets passed onto it.
Then there's SFO-KIX, which is longstanding, but UA's SFO hub is a beast (unlike SEA, as we've learned).
Even BA doesn't fly to KIX (although IMO they should).
Jun 17, 2018, 1:41 pm
#185
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: SJC, SFO
Programs: Delta DM, IHG Spire, Hertz PC, H.com Gold^3, lowly something on others...
Posts: 1,260
Just so we are clear, you are recommending that DL:
1) Re-establish a hub at a less desirable airport for O/D
2) Beef up a 5th freedom hub, when the trend is entirely the opposite (see QF @ SIN, UA @ NRT, for example)
3) Not leverage KE and the JV for connections, despite that being the entire point of the JV
1) Re-establish a hub at a less desirable airport for O/D
2) Beef up a 5th freedom hub, when the trend is entirely the opposite (see QF @ SIN, UA @ NRT, for example)
3) Not leverage KE and the JV for connections, despite that being the entire point of the JV
ICN is a giant mess in terms of transfer logistics. I do Asia flight from west coast nearly on a weekly basis now
and I passed through ICN at least 7 times that I can recall since May 1st... Terrible experience is all I can say... Because the flight schedules are not fully aligned, DL still connect at ICN to MU/CI/VN, etc. Those ST airlines are in T1 or Concourse, so after you get off your DL flight, so still have to quickly get to T1 or Concourse. If you have any issue with your ticket and you need to talk to the JV desk at T2, you have to leave T1 through the bus, which require you to clear custom out of T1, take a 35 min bus ride (driving at highway speed) to go to T2, work through your ticketing issue, then clear custom and clear security again... If you don't have any ticketing issue, then you can take the train, which means you have to clear intra-terminal security at T2 (or T1), go down many layers deep into the underground, take the sparsely ran train (because it's so new) and then reverse layers back up to the departure level..... and only to find "uh oh, the transfer desk is not open yet..."Believe me, I've done so many times it's NOT fun... This nightmare is worse than hopping between terminals at ATL or even the new mess at LAX from TB to T2/3.
As the JV currently stands, DL pax are second class citizen to KE's own. No seat selection, no OLCI, no perk, absolutely no nothing! If you are unlucky enough to get a DL coded flight on Jin Air, then you will really wonder why you paid DL's high fare when you are flying a LCC...that's after you clear through the mess of arguing you shouldn't have to pay a luggage fee because you are on a codeshared international flight and your luggage is checked through...
Jun 17, 2018, 1:47 pm
#186
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: SJC, SFO
Programs: Delta DM, IHG Spire, Hertz PC, H.com Gold^3, lowly something on others...
Posts: 1,260
You don't travel frequently.. TPE T2 lounge is closed.. originally until September, but just heard the other day it's closed indefinitely because of some construction issue. You get 350TWD voucher for food at the airport and airport WiFi sucks...
Let me paint the picture clearly for you - in T2, 350TWD is not enough to get a meal set plus a drink, unless you pick the cheapest meal and bottle water. Heck, 350TWD is not enough to get a large Starbucks coffee and pastry.
Let me paint the picture clearly for you - in T2, 350TWD is not enough to get a meal set plus a drink, unless you pick the cheapest meal and bottle water. Heck, 350TWD is not enough to get a large Starbucks coffee and pastry.
Last edited by wlau; Jun 17, 2018 at 2:33 pm
Jun 17, 2018, 1:50 pm
#187
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: SJC, SFO
Programs: Delta DM, IHG Spire, Hertz PC, H.com Gold^3, lowly something on others...
Posts: 1,260
I'm guessing DL is out of Hongkong for good. Wouldn't it be easier to just add a tag from NRT to HKG as a placeholder until they can figure how to really serve HKG? Wouldn't it keep those who want to fly DL metal and keep the brand open for business? I realize it goes against the extra stop / NRT 5th freedom but for many HKG-NRT-USA is a formula that many DL/former NW flyers are used to. It would only require one extra frame and the RON time in HKG would be much less than from SEA. Arriving HKG 10pm and leave at 8am next morning. Maybe wishful thinking. Sadly seems to indicate HKG is done for now on DL metal.
Jun 17, 2018, 1:53 pm
#188
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: SJC, SFO
Programs: Delta DM, IHG Spire, Hertz PC, H.com Gold^3, lowly something on others...
Posts: 1,260
Jun 17, 2018, 2:03 pm
#189
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: SJC, SFO
Programs: Delta DM, IHG Spire, Hertz PC, H.com Gold^3, lowly something on others...
Posts: 1,260
Anyone here think DL can realistically turn a profit on SEA-KIX?
Even LAX didn't get a KIX flight until 2015 when JAL reentered after nearly a decade. I actually rode the flight the other day and it's on a low-density 787 with an ancient business class product. With JL starting an LCC in 2019, I have little doubt the KIX route gets passed onto it.
Then there's SFO-KIX, which is longstanding, but UA's SFO hub is a beast (unlike SEA, as we've learned).
Even BA doesn't fly to KIX (although IMO they should).
Even LAX didn't get a KIX flight until 2015 when JAL reentered after nearly a decade. I actually rode the flight the other day and it's on a low-density 787 with an ancient business class product. With JL starting an LCC in 2019, I have little doubt the KIX route gets passed onto it.
Then there's SFO-KIX, which is longstanding, but UA's SFO hub is a beast (unlike SEA, as we've learned).
Even BA doesn't fly to KIX (although IMO they should).
DL is overlooking one thing, ANA has very cheap foreigner fare (not well known yet). You can arrive into HND or NRT on DL, and take ANA to Osaka's Itami airport, which is way way better than Kansai, if you are a business traveler...
Jun 17, 2018, 2:06 pm
#190
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: HNL
Programs: DL PM/1MM, BW DE (lifetime), HH DE, Marriott PE (lifetime), National Emerald Executive
Posts: 7,205
ICN is a giant mess in terms of transfer logistics. I do Asia flight from west coast nearly on a weekly basis now and I passed through ICN at least 7 times that I can recall since May 1st... Terrible experience is all I can say... Because the flight schedules are not fully aligned, DL still connect at ICN to MU/CI/VN, etc. Those ST airlines are in T1 or Concourse, so after you get off your DL flight, so still have to quickly get to T1 or Concourse. If you have any issue with your ticket and you need to talk to the JV desk at T2, you have to leave T1 through the bus, which require you to clear custom out of T1, take a 35 min bus ride (driving at highway speed) to go to T2, work through your ticketing issue, then clear custom and clear security again... If you don't have any ticketing issue, then you can take the train, which means you have to clear intra-terminal security at T2 (or T1), go down many layers deep into the underground, take the sparsely ran train (because it's so new) and then reverse layers back up to the departure level..... and only to find "uh oh, the transfer desk is not open yet..."
and I passed through ICN at least 7 times that I can recall since May 1st... Terrible experience is all I can say... Because the flight schedules are not fully aligned, DL still connect at ICN to MU/CI/VN, etc. Those ST airlines are in T1 or Concourse, so after you get off your DL flight, so still have to quickly get to T1 or Concourse. If you have any issue with your ticket and you need to talk to the JV desk at T2, you have to leave T1 through the bus, which require you to clear custom out of T1, take a 35 min bus ride (driving at highway speed) to go to T2, work through your ticketing issue, then clear custom and clear security again... If you don't have any ticketing issue, then you can take the train, which means you have to clear intra-terminal security at T2 (or T1), go down many layers deep into the underground, take the sparsely ran train (because it's so new) and then reverse layers back up to the departure level..... and only to find "uh oh, the transfer desk is not open yet..."T1 to T2 transit is annoying, but no problem, even on a tight connection.
OZ to KE transfer, with late arriving flight and only 40 minutes OZ left landing to KE take off, I still made it no problem. Arrive at T1 (OZ). Take train to satellite ("concourse"). Take train to T2 (no BP to scan as KE doesn't do OLCI for int'l flights, so just enter your flight number instead of scanning a BP - do the same if any "ticketing issue" and have them take care of it at the desk or transit desk). Then go and get the BP at gate and board, or optionally go to the transfer desk to get your BP there. Sure is annoying and not as easy as it was before when it was just one terminal, but it's fine. Still better than many, many other airports.
The real issue is the both KE and OZ service quality. Food and on-board service quality has severely deteriorated in both airlines, both in J and Y, so indeed, no matter if you are flying Y or J, you will fly hungry, and will be dehydrated, sticky and hot (though if you ask enough times to lower the cabin temp, may be it'll get to something less than jimjilbang (sauna) temperature in the end, though still far too hot to be able to rest or sleep).
Jun 17, 2018, 2:23 pm
#191
Join Date: Apr 2006
Programs: All of em more or less
Posts: 367
1. IT is generally worse than US airlines
2. On board product at least within North America generally lags US airlines
3. Customer service generally lags US airlines
Some times they are a decent price and sometimes they are the only option to get to some town in New Brunswick forninstance but otherwise, I will generally opt for any of the US airlines first. My theory is that Canadians had to put up with them as the only game in town until Westjet started to expand....
Jun 17, 2018, 2:23 pm
#192
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: SJC, SFO
Programs: Delta DM, IHG Spire, Hertz PC, H.com Gold^3, lowly something on others...
Posts: 1,260
The real issue is the both KE and OZ service quality. Food and on-board service quality has severely deteriorated in both airlines, both in J and Y, so indeed, no matter if you are flying Y or J, you will fly hungry, and will be dehydrated, sticky and hot (though if you ask enough times to lower the cabin temp, may be it'll get to something less than jimjilbang (sauna) temperature in the end, though still far too hot to be able to rest or sleep).
1) trek between T1/Concurse and T2 will definitely work up a sweat
2) KE lounges are toasty to put it politely and very stuffy
3) food at the lounge is worst than Air China's lounge and that's setting the bar low...
You said it best... "...you will fly hungry, and will be dehydrated, sticky and hot..." Same experience as me. I wish all the other people would stop elevating KE until they are flying it constantly, it's not like it's old glory days... It's not PC for me to say, but I can understand why the nut-rage sister and watergate sister did what they did... very very substandard hard and soft products. As far as I am concerned, KE is now below CI and MU, except in cabin crew - they are really really nice.
Jun 17, 2018, 2:28 pm
#193
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: SJC, SFO
Programs: Delta DM, IHG Spire, Hertz PC, H.com Gold^3, lowly something on others...
Posts: 1,260
YMMV but IMHO:
1. IT is generally worse than US airlines
2. On board product at least within North America generally lags US airlines
3. Customer service generally lags US airlines
Some times they are a decent price and sometimes they are the only option to get to some town in New Brunswick forninstance but otherwise, I will generally opt for any of the US airlines first. My theory is that Canadians had to put up with them as the only game in town until Westjet started to expand....
Does AC have any pattern of issues with long delays and cancellations?
Jun 17, 2018, 3:03 pm
#194
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: HNL
Programs: DL PM/1MM, BW DE (lifetime), HH DE, Marriott PE (lifetime), National Emerald Executive
Posts: 7,205
KE of 5-8 years ago is very different of KE of today. KE used to have some of the best food and service, ICN was a pleasure to connect in. Those days are now sadly gone.
And OZ matters, well because that is their only direct competitor and the other major airline at ICN. OZ is no better than KE, in fact worse hard product (far too many flighs with horribly uncomfortable angled "lie flats" in J, whereas KE has mostly truly lie flats in J), and no better soft product. Pretty much aligned with KE, but to top of it that sickly cosmetic smell that they like to spray throughout the cabin, which only makes it worse. If you will go to UA and *A, then you'll surely experience at least some of OZ, which will be pretty much the same as KE in most regards, plus an often inferior hard product.
Jun 17, 2018, 3:34 pm
#195
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: ZRH / SEA, DL PM
Posts: 1,164
YMMV but IMHO:
1. IT is generally worse than US airlines
2. On board product at least within North America generally lags US airlines
3. Customer service generally lags US airlines
Some times they are a decent price and sometimes they are the only option to get to some town in New Brunswick forninstance but otherwise, I will generally opt for any of the US airlines first. My theory is that Canadians had to put up with them as the only game in town until Westjet started to expand....
