Ber2dca

I am not quite sure what this thread is about. There's some not sufficiently privileged individuals in D1 and that's somehow 'ruining' the entire product?

D1 is one of the better ways to cross the Atlantic and the selection of your 'cabin-mates' is always a lottery. At least if you're in the window seats in D1 those people won't be directly next to you - unlike in say United's current J product or LH's J product, BA's J product or many of KLM's and AF's J products.

If you want a truly 'elite' experience you've got to pay for Gulf carrier first class. And honestly, that kind of 'elite' experience is rather un-American, isn't it? I think of America as kind of a country with an egalitarian ethos, not a country of princes, lords or sheikhs.

pbarnette

Well, there is a lot of fluff around it, but this is really a run-of-the-mill complaint thread. Specifically, it seems the real issue is about D1 pricing and upgrade practices with some stuff about non-revs thrown in for good measure. Yeah, the pretense of it being about understanding the "branding" is somewhat novel, but it is pretense nonetheless.

The real comedy gold is the notion that BA (which, in a thread ostensibly about branding, is called British Air) or AA are somehow more "elite" than D1.

ryanm

Indeed--not to mention the fact that the gulf carriers are propped up by explicitly homophobic states, which makes many of us refuse to fly them in any class of service.

Hard to know where to start with this thread: the outright and clumsy classism? the substitution of vague impressions for facts? the assumption that only sleepy "businessmen" deserve D1? By all means let's continue a discussion about the seats, service, and food/wine in D1, but the offensive armchair sociology has to go.

RealHJ

When the person sitting next to you boarding pass has big bold NRSA printed on it, as you can see when they put it on the table next to the seat.

Esp. on DL 747s, often times 2/3s to even 3/4s of the cabin is all either free upgrades from Y or NRSAs, yet if you want to buy the seat, the cost is now more than 5 times higher in miles than it was until some 3 years ago.

davetravels

So, you want to DELETE 95% of all FlyerTalk threads?!?!?

gooselee

If you're sitting next to someone in J on a DL 744, you're doin' it wrong.

RealHJ

I mean in the old 2-2 NW WBC seating on the upper deck, before it got retrofitted. I remember one clueless (seems to have never flown before) NRSA sitting next to me once who left their boarding pass out for the entire flight, with big bold NRSA on it. Every time I got up or moved I would see the big bold NRSA.

gooselee

I was making a joke, but since you mentioned it...it seems a bit odd to link projected guesses at NRSA loads from 5+ years ago (at least) with the current pricing of premium cabin mileage awards.

Then again, even when I notice a NRSA pax, I usually don't go and start counting all the other pax in the cabin to assemble a mental ratio of who I think deserves to be there. But that's just me, I guess.

RealHJ

That was just an answer to the poster's question as to how one can know: by seeing the big NRSA on a non-rev's BP, a clear example, even if not recent.

But I was talking about recent experience. E.g. 747 T-4 hours, 3/4s of seats are empty (and yes, the seatmap is not an accurate indication of load, I know), but in the last 20 minutes all of a sudden the remaining 3/4s of seats get filled, with a mix of NRSA and upgraded from Y pax and it's all full. That is not uncommon. Seen that at least twice this year alone first hand. So when your seat is broken (very frequent with Delta given it's poor maintenance track record of its aircraft, at least based on my experience of DL vs. other airlines I fly equally much), you have no alternate seat to move to, though the cabin is mostly free of non-revs or free upgrades...unless the crew move one of them back to Y.

Compare that to some 5 years ago (back with the old horrible recliner 767s), when I've seen completely empty J cabin, save for one NRSA/crew in it once, and practically empty (<20% load) quite often. Recently, it appears that the J cabin is getting more filled with NRSAs vs before. Not saying it's good or bad. And it's hardly a scientific sample base... just my personal observation.

Zorak

In such a situation I thought non revs are supposed to swap into the broken seat and trade with the revenue pax.

RealHJ

Yes. That does (or non-revs/free upgrades going back to Y), thankfully, then usually happen (some crews are a better about it than others)...still is a hassle and makes you feel bad having someone (though they didn't pay for it) have to move out of their seat.

I just like flying J on other airlines where it is usually not packed full and the cabin is more quiet, more airy, better and faster service, etc., vs how full it is on DL, even though sometimes (often?) the majority of the cabin hasn't purchased those seats (with money or miles or GUCs, I mean).

Other airlines know how to protect the exclusivity of the J cabin. Dullta clearly does not.

ijgordon

So does Delta really make it harder for elites to get into its business class than AA or UA? None provide unlimited free upgrades, you have to use an instrument. I suppose DL is slightly stingier (I think it takes 125k and you only get 4, vs. UA 100K gets 6, AA 100k gets 4 and both UA/AA let you earn more).
Can't imagine that makes that much of a difference.

Where I think it is different, is that members on mileage upgrades can't clear at the gate on DL. Both UA and AA transfer the advance waitlist, if it doesn't clear, to the gate. And possibly mileage/fare requirements are higher on DL than the others, but since there's no chart, not sure how to tell.

I do wonder whether all that money they spend on the "DeltaOne" branding really helps their yields. It's business class. It's a good/decent business class, but that's really it. I'd rather they spend the money on the product.

gooselee

That's fair enough.

One thing I am genuinely curious about - you've mentioned a couple times "free upgrades from Y" and distinguished that from NRSAs. We're talking about int'l J here - exactly what is the nature of the upgrades to which you're referring? In my mind, GUCs and mileage upgrades aren't really "free", and op-ups tend to be quite rare.

I am aware, IIRC, that most of your routes are not from mainland US, so I fully admit there may be a different proportion of op-ups on the routes you frequent vs. those that I find myself on. But I still have trouble thinking that such a large swath of the J cabin would be op-ups...

RealHJ

Honestly I don't know. Just not uncommonly several pax brought from Y into J once door has closed. Friends & family of FAs perhaps? Or may be NRSAs or off the clock crew first sitting in Y and then brought to J? I really wouldn't know, it would be plain speculation.

DL doesn't really do elite upgrades often (KE does with some frequency for SkyTeam Elite Plus, from J to F at least).

USCTrojan83

I think what bugs me the most about this system is that there is no in-between. A few weeks ago I wanted a last minute trip LAX-AMS, but won't fly coach. My options were paying $8500 r/t ($2300 in coach) or trying to use GUC. That price point is so steep that the product is hardly worth it. Why not offer a cash upgrade option at t-minus 24, if even for $1-2k? Why would they rather give the seat to a non-rev than make a few thousand off of it. Makes zero sense to me.