motytrah

Not when the merger was first announced. The PMNW FA, even running under a contract that was imposed by the bankruptcy court, made more than PMDL FAs. DL quickly increased wages for the PMDL employees once the unions started making the rounds south of the Mason Dixon.

BFG

Since I wrote "don't be fooled by the amount of cards signed" before giving a few examples of why people shouldn't read it as 12,000 yes votes i thought I was setting up my comments nicely, I guess you didn't make that leap eh?

Some people have admittedly been naive. Please stop putting words in my mouth. I am not calling anyone lemmings. As far as calling people victims of bullying I can say that is happening at every seniority level.

My examples are just that examples of why 12,000 signatures are not 12,000 yes votes. I suppose those names are coming to your mind because that's what your opinion of people that have been naive is?? That's a rhetorical question.

houserulz77

Couldn't agree more.

Be that as it may, the mission of a union is antithetical to the notion of a "profession."

I am employed as a faculty member at an institution represented by a "union." We do have collective bargaining, but negotiate our own salaries.

The CBA covers all faculty, including tenured and tenure-track faculty.

Having researched this very topic, specifically as it relates to teachers, I can state with some authority that professionals generally control their own knowledge base, design and administer their own education program and have responsibility for credentialing and regulation (usually with the blessing of government agencies). Professions also generally offer an explicit public service and enjoy "status" in one or more ways.

I bold credentialing and regulation because those two critical components of professions cannot coexist with a union.

Unions retain existing members at all costs, and favor barriers to admission into the workforce based on the need to protect existing members rather then for the greater good.

In a strict sense, a profession (and its professionals) cannot be represented by a union.

MSPeconomist

I wasn't trying to say that some professors weren't included here--in fact, I named Rutgers and the SUNY system in my earlier post--but my point is that the category of faculty members includes many employees who aren't assistant professors, associate professors, or full professors (i.e., the definition of tenured and tenure-track faculty in most universities). For all we know from the quote containing the list, some of these educational institutions could have unionized instructors and lecturers (or possibly even unionized TAs but they wouldn't be considered faculty members in most places) but not unionized professors.

houserulz77

Understood.

I do think your premise, that most academics and medical doctors are not represented by unions is correct. Further, to the extent that there are exceptions, these exceptions are, IMO, unfortunate. In my case I am one of over 1200 faculty, the overwhelming majority of us have a doctoral degree of some sort. You would think we would be able to represent our collective interests via means other than collective bargaining.

DCAflyer81

Then how do you square the highly regulated airline industry with respect to the pilot's union? How about professional athletes - their unions have in recent years agreed to all sorts of regulation, from salary caps to mandatory drug testing.

houserulz77

Professional athletes are not professionals. When I mentioned regulation, I'm talking about regulations related to acceptable standards of professional conduct. So drug testing would fall into that category, but not when its a concession.

Pilot's meet a lot of the criteria of a profession (esoteric knowledge; training provided by other pilots; explicit criteria to enter the profession, much of which I'm sure is developed by pilots; public service, in the sense that profit isn't considered over the greater good; status, based on public perception and wages). Pilots and teachers are actually a good parallel. Both occupations have a lot of the characteristics of professions, but in both cases, stability and advancement is largely a factor of seniority, something that unions perpetuate.

jdrtravel

What about skilled labor? Is an electrician or plumber a professional? What about a public school teacher? Merriam Webster defines profession as "a type of job that requires special education, training, or skill" which I think would include all of the jobs being discussed here (pilot, university professor, skilled labor).

Are you saying that there is a clear defined difference between, for example, profession and trade?

jdrtravel

Did I call it or what?

Carl Johnson

No it isn't.

Yeah they can.

indufan

Seriously? You questioning university status based upon union membership. Kent State, for example, while originally a teachers college has 11 colleges representing a diverse set of educational goals. They have also 30,000 students at the Kent, Ohio campus and 7 satellite campus locations. Central Michigan has 28,000 students in 8 different colleges. Eastern and Western are somewhat similar.

I don't disagree with your premise either but to question the university status of these institutions is ridiculous.

scottsam66

Actually, unions do the opposite.
I could list a cornucopia of things you enjoy as a result of unions fighting the good fight.
You're welcome

I'm certain FT mods are not interested in turning this thread or any not in OMNI into a union debate. That was the point of my post.
Save your anti-Union rhetoric for Rush or or O'Reilly.

houserulz77

Let me give you an example: regulations around rest periods and flying limits for pilots.

most of these are supported by unions, because while they can bee seen as safety-related to the flying public, they are also a protection for workers.

Now suppose an airline decides that in an effort to maximize rest time, commuting by plane to work will be ended. That is to say pilots have to live in proximity to their crew base. Makes sense, pilots can wake up in their own bed and go to work, not have to worry about flying into work and then sitting around in the crew room, etc. What do you think the union response would be? The union would be opposed for the sole reason that the rule could adversely impact pilots personally/economically.

I don't have a problem with unions per se, but what unions are supposed to do is not congruent with what a profession is supposed to be.

scottsam66

You do realize you just gave credit to unions don't you? Company keeping pay and bennies good enough so employees won't go to union.
I'd say those employees ought to be bowing to the unions for their good pay if I'm to believe what you've posted.

bubbashow

Wow...interesting bedfellows. I have never read posts by readywhenyouare and so wholeheartedly agreed with what was being said.