Skymiles Change Rumor?
Mar 25, 2012, 1:40 pm
#1051
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Planet Earth
Programs: | *G | STE | HGP ♦ | SPG Au | MR Au
Posts: 3,772
Many medallions consider the ability to use 100k mile for an anuual trip in BusinessElite to Europe/Asia with their significant other somewhat sacred and something they can count on each year with their miles.
My question is if Delta moves to this revenue based system making such awards impossible for the majority of medallions (or much harder to find if thats possible), will they really be able to fill the BE cabin with other passengers since there would be so many empty seats that normally would have been filled with award tickets?
My question is if Delta moves to this revenue based system making such awards impossible for the majority of medallions (or much harder to find if thats possible), will they really be able to fill the BE cabin with other passengers since there would be so many empty seats that normally would have been filled with award tickets?
I admit to being far less savy than many on here and perhaps even ignorant to the real economics of an airline loyaly program but it seems that even under the current difficult redemption scheme for int'l biz flights that Delta does derive some benefit from filling a seat that wouls likely have otherwise been empty or filled by an employee with a "paying" passenger. Some revenue can be booked from the miles used (i think) and you've presumably made a loyal customer happy. If DL converts to a dollar based redemtpion strategy whereby the current 200k int'l biz seat become based on fare and increases by double, then wouldn't more seats just sit empty since there are probably few members with 400k plus miles to use? it would seem difficult to book revenue for an empty seat, even under the most creative of accounting. When I fly to Dulblin for instance, and I do so a few times a year, both DL and United's (CO's) Biz class are filled with employees or mileage travellers (anecdotal on the latter through conversations). I suppose this could be a bonanza for employee travel...
this would also seem to evisorate the AMEX tie-in. Membership Rewards points for instance would be far more valuable elsewhere unless massive promotions are employed to compel folks to xfer to Delta.
just some random thoughts..
this would also seem to evisorate the AMEX tie-in. Membership Rewards points for instance would be far more valuable elsewhere unless massive promotions are employed to compel folks to xfer to Delta.
just some random thoughts..
That is a gamble that mr. Anderson is willing to take, that he can control the matrix and continue to sell seats even if he devalues the miles.
Those who follow what airlines are doing with their FFP, like FT-ers, and know how to maximize the system are few and far in between.
This is absolutley NOT "Black Helicopter" stuff. Many of us have left or are leaving because of some of the things that were discussed at that Focus Group (I was not there but I have had conversation with some who were...NDA and all...Nuff said). I think the final form factor and details are still being hashed out but there are major changes coming and once again we will not find out until it is done. THAT is why I am flying (happily) with UA now. BTW, anyone who thinks E fares are going to earn MQM/RDM like other fares is mistaken. Baby steps....it is coming.
While still in rumor phase (which of course this could go on a long time), anyone nervous about piling up rollover MQM's as a result of this?
I'm about to cross over the DM threshold but instead of building up rollover, I'm thinking about doing a UA challenge for 1K and staying there the rest of the year if this is true.
Anyone else in the same boat?
I'm about to cross over the DM threshold but instead of building up rollover, I'm thinking about doing a UA challenge for 1K and staying there the rest of the year if this is true.
Anyone else in the same boat?
If an announcement is made, I might status match with AS and dump the RDM and EQM there.
If no announcement is made, I will still bank them into my SM and hope that I will get something out of it. I won't chase DM like I did last year, but I will have enough roll over that I can easily be PM for the next 2 years with minimal flying.
Last edited by DHalltheway; Mar 25, 2012 at 1:48 pm
Mar 25, 2012, 2:14 pm
#1052
FlyerTalk Evangelist & Ambassador: China
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: DEN
Programs: DL DM/MM, UA 1K, AA Exp, HH Dia, WOH Glob, IHG Plat, Marriott Gold, NA EE, Hertz PC
Posts: 17,423
Having left DL 2+ yrs ago after seeing all the devaluation (i.e. spent additional $450 on date changes, and that was as a Platinum) and inability to redeem award ticket, this is just another nail in the Skymiles program. Sadly, still have 300K+ SM's to burn. Just don't have enough time, or unwilling to blow 300K on a single premium award ticket.
But this truly is frustrating to see how DL keeps treating their FF's as pinatas until they break every last one of them.
But this truly is frustrating to see how DL keeps treating their FF's as pinatas until they break every last one of them.
Right now I barely have enough scheduled for DM, but if they can the rollover and go to a revenue based model then I'm gone.
Further, the later DL delays this out and announces the worse the ramifications will be. Can you imagine all of us hitting our numbers and then some for the year only to see DL implement a "sorry", it didn't count rule?
Mar 25, 2012, 2:18 pm
#1053
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: ATL - DL DM/3MM - HH Lifetime Diamond - Marriott Lifetime Plat
Posts: 3,117
If my flying patterns don't mean much to DL when the new program is announced, I'll match to 1 or 2 other programs and fly with whoever is the cheapest and gets to where I'm going when I need to be there.
Up to this point, I know I've been paying more to DL than I should have and have often not had the best schedule for my needs, but I did all of that while chasing some dream.
Mar 25, 2012, 2:50 pm
#1054
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Long Beach, CA
Programs: DL DM
Posts: 5,292
What if the news cameras find SteveinA2 or me....then what? LOL. Give me a break.
Leave and send them the receipts and boarding passes of what you booked away from them.
Mar 25, 2012, 2:54 pm
#1055
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: MKE
Programs: DL-MM-Diamond HH-Diamond
Posts: 3,218
Mar 25, 2012, 2:58 pm
#1056
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: LHR
Programs: DL DM 2MM, BA Bronze, Various Hotels
Posts: 10,187
Yes - I am looking into the options now - a little bit more challenging as I live in ATL.
If my flying patterns don't mean much to DL when the new program is announced, I'll match to 1 or 2 other programs and fly with whoever is the cheapest and gets to where I'm going when I need to be there.
Up to this point, I know I've been paying more to DL than I should have and have often not had the best schedule for my needs, but I did all of that while chasing some dream.
If my flying patterns don't mean much to DL when the new program is announced, I'll match to 1 or 2 other programs and fly with whoever is the cheapest and gets to where I'm going when I need to be there.
Up to this point, I know I've been paying more to DL than I should have and have often not had the best schedule for my needs, but I did all of that while chasing some dream.
It was weird when I did it, but I kind of like AA's secluded baggage claim. 
Mar 25, 2012, 3:04 pm
#1057
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Long Beach, CA
Programs: DL DM
Posts: 5,292
Well, I live in DTW and to me, time is money. I don't have time to go down to DFW, or get caught in the hellhole that is ORD. I guess from DTW, I could take UA to DEN on a cr7, come down in the middle of the country, wait an hour, then fly to my destination (probably out of the way), but I value my time. DL gets me nonstop from my airport to pretty much anywhere I want to go, treats me well, and every once in a while I get a perk.
Mar 25, 2012, 3:47 pm
#1058
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: ATL
Programs: Delta GM, Marriott Platinum, Hertz 5*
Posts: 2,530
Yes - I am looking into the options now - a little bit more challenging as I live in ATL.
If my flying patterns don't mean much to DL when the new program is announced, I'll match to 1 or 2 other programs and fly with whoever is the cheapest and gets to where I'm going when I need to be there.
Up to this point, I know I've been paying more to DL than I should have and have often not had the best schedule for my needs, but I did all of that while chasing some dream.
If my flying patterns don't mean much to DL when the new program is announced, I'll match to 1 or 2 other programs and fly with whoever is the cheapest and gets to where I'm going when I need to be there.
Up to this point, I know I've been paying more to DL than I should have and have often not had the best schedule for my needs, but I did all of that while chasing some dream.
It was weird when I did it, but I kind of like AA's secluded baggage claim. I like UA's fleet and ATL departures better though... Even with a connection I wouldn't arrive much later, and could often save 10-20% over DL.
I had been sticking with DL through their price hikes not matched by UA, but their secrecy is quite unsettling. I might stay through some negative changes, but only if they own up to them soon!
Mar 25, 2012, 4:10 pm
#1059
Moderator: Southwest Airlines, Capital One
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: California
Programs: WN Companion Pass, A-list preferred, Hyatt Globalist; United Club Lietime (sic) Member
Posts: 21,624
************************************************** ****
Possible enhanced earnings for high fares
Let's look at this from the airline's point of view. How does the airline benefit?
I have a pretty good idea how Southwest benefited from its new program. High-fare customers earn MUCH more than in the old program and have an easier time redeeming for free travel. All indications are that more people are buying high-fare Southwest tickets now. I believe that this was the airline's one crucial motivation for the new program.
How will a revenue-based program make DL more attractive than it is now for high-fare customers? That is almost certainly DL's focus in developing a new program. Merely making high fares more rewarding than low fares is not sufficient if you drive away both high-fare and low-fare customers! The new program MUST be superior to competitors' offerings for high-fare customers. (And yes, Southwest's program accomplishes this for business travelers choosing a carrier for a short-haul flight.)
Southwest achieved its objective by creating very high earning rates for high fares. Top fare plus top status (50 flights per year) gets you a 40% effective rebate. That's unbeatable by non-FTers. If DL offers earning rates in this ballpark, its new program could be a financial success.
*************************************************
Transition Fears
I have finally read the whole thread, and I see that nobody has raised my concern about the transition. Everyone seems to be assuming that DL will convert existing miles to points. I agree that this is the fairest way to proceed. Yet no other airline making this transition has done this! All the transitions include provisions which preserve the breakage factor for old program credits.
Look at Southwest's transition and be afraid. Be very afraid. You may have a short window to use new points to top off your old miles for an award, competing for a limited inventory of award seats.
Possible enhanced earnings for high fares
Let's look at this from the airline's point of view. How does the airline benefit?
I have a pretty good idea how Southwest benefited from its new program. High-fare customers earn MUCH more than in the old program and have an easier time redeeming for free travel. All indications are that more people are buying high-fare Southwest tickets now. I believe that this was the airline's one crucial motivation for the new program.
How will a revenue-based program make DL more attractive than it is now for high-fare customers? That is almost certainly DL's focus in developing a new program. Merely making high fares more rewarding than low fares is not sufficient if you drive away both high-fare and low-fare customers! The new program MUST be superior to competitors' offerings for high-fare customers. (And yes, Southwest's program accomplishes this for business travelers choosing a carrier for a short-haul flight.)
Southwest achieved its objective by creating very high earning rates for high fares. Top fare plus top status (50 flights per year) gets you a 40% effective rebate. That's unbeatable by non-FTers. If DL offers earning rates in this ballpark, its new program could be a financial success.
*************************************************
Transition Fears
I have finally read the whole thread, and I see that nobody has raised my concern about the transition. Everyone seems to be assuming that DL will convert existing miles to points. I agree that this is the fairest way to proceed. Yet no other airline making this transition has done this! All the transitions include provisions which preserve the breakage factor for old program credits.
Look at Southwest's transition and be afraid. Be very afraid. You may have a short window to use new points to top off your old miles for an award, competing for a limited inventory of award seats.
Mar 25, 2012, 4:20 pm
#1060
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: SEA
Programs: UA 1K, AS MVPG, DL GM, Marriott Titanium, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 2,266
Or AirTran, at least until WN kills their business class.
I like UA's fleet and ATL departures better though... Even with a connection I wouldn't arrive much later, and could often save 10-20% over DL.
I had been sticking with DL through their price hikes not matched by UA, but their secrecy is quite unsettling. I might stay through some negative changes, but only if they own up to them soon!
I like UA's fleet and ATL departures better though... Even with a connection I wouldn't arrive much later, and could often save 10-20% over DL.
I had been sticking with DL through their price hikes not matched by UA, but their secrecy is quite unsettling. I might stay through some negative changes, but only if they own up to them soon!
Mar 25, 2012, 4:24 pm
#1061
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: BDL/HPN/JFK/FLL
Programs: DL Diamond Ham Sandwich
Posts: 1,051
nsx, no offense, but Southwest fliers have almost nothing in common with "elite" legacy carrier customers.
Mar 25, 2012, 4:34 pm
#1062
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: SEA
Programs: UA 1K, AS MVPG, DL GM, Marriott Titanium, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 2,266
************************************************** ****
Possible enhanced earnings for high fares
Let's look at this from the airline's point of view. How does the airline benefit?
I have a pretty good idea how Southwest benefited from its new program. High-fare customers earn MUCH more than in the old program and have an easier time redeeming for free travel. All indications are that more people are buying high-fare Southwest tickets now. I believe that this was the airline's one crucial motivation for the new program.
How will a revenue-based program make DL more attractive than it is now for high-fare customers? That is almost certainly DL's focus in developing a new program. Merely making high fares more rewarding than low fares is not sufficient if you drive away both high-fare and low-fare customers! The new program MUST be superior to competitors' offerings for high-fare customers. (And yes, Southwest's program accomplishes this for business travelers choosing a carrier for a short-haul flight.)
Southwest achieved its objective by creating very high earning rates for high fares. Top fare plus top status (50 flights per year) gets you a 40% effective rebate. That's unbeatable by non-FTers. If DL offers earning rates in this ballpark, its new program could be a financial success.
*************************************************
Transition Fears
I have finally read the whole thread, and I see that nobody has raised my concern about the transition. Everyone seems to be assuming that DL will convert existing miles to points. I agree that this is the fairest way to proceed. Yet no other airline making this transition has done this! All the transitions include provisions which preserve the breakage factor for old program credits.
Look at Southwest's transition and be afraid. Be very afraid. You may have a short window to use new points to top off your old miles for an award, competing for a limited inventory of award seats.
Possible enhanced earnings for high fares
Let's look at this from the airline's point of view. How does the airline benefit?
I have a pretty good idea how Southwest benefited from its new program. High-fare customers earn MUCH more than in the old program and have an easier time redeeming for free travel. All indications are that more people are buying high-fare Southwest tickets now. I believe that this was the airline's one crucial motivation for the new program.
How will a revenue-based program make DL more attractive than it is now for high-fare customers? That is almost certainly DL's focus in developing a new program. Merely making high fares more rewarding than low fares is not sufficient if you drive away both high-fare and low-fare customers! The new program MUST be superior to competitors' offerings for high-fare customers. (And yes, Southwest's program accomplishes this for business travelers choosing a carrier for a short-haul flight.)
Southwest achieved its objective by creating very high earning rates for high fares. Top fare plus top status (50 flights per year) gets you a 40% effective rebate. That's unbeatable by non-FTers. If DL offers earning rates in this ballpark, its new program could be a financial success.
*************************************************
Transition Fears
I have finally read the whole thread, and I see that nobody has raised my concern about the transition. Everyone seems to be assuming that DL will convert existing miles to points. I agree that this is the fairest way to proceed. Yet no other airline making this transition has done this! All the transitions include provisions which preserve the breakage factor for old program credits.
Look at Southwest's transition and be afraid. Be very afraid. You may have a short window to use new points to top off your old miles for an award, competing for a limited inventory of award seats.
At the end of the day I think I'm a pretty rational person so you can flame me if you want but I've always thought that it was pretty sad that I could buy a LAX-JNB ticket as a DM and pay $1000-1500 and earn over 45k miles for the trip. Even with horrible redemption rates (as people often complain about) that is good enough for a mid-level award ticket in the US or a FC ticket in the US at low level or a flight at low level to northern South America. I just think that is nuts. I fly one trip and get one free. A domestic US ticket for 40,000 miles probably is worth anywhere from $300-800 (depending on when you book), a FC domestic ticket at low level probably is worth $700-1200 and a ticket to northern South America is probably around $600-1500. This is just one example of why I think the mileage system is severely flawed and too rewarding.
Revenue based makes things more clear, consistent and predictable, if it truly goes to a rebate type system you cannot complain about award redemption, youll only be able to complain about airfares. Seems from a customer service standpoint that after the initial pushback it would require much less maintenance and see far fewer complaints....especially if the other legacies go the same route which I'm sure would happen within the 12-24 months after DL does (if they do).
Mar 25, 2012, 4:35 pm
#1063
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Long Beach, CA
Programs: DL DM
Posts: 5,292
Or AirTran, at least until WN kills their business class.
I like UA's fleet and ATL departures better though... Even with a connection I wouldn't arrive much later, and could often save 10-20% over DL.
I had been sticking with DL through their price hikes not matched by UA, but their secrecy is quite unsettling. I might stay through some negative changes, but only if they own up to them soon!
I like UA's fleet and ATL departures better though... Even with a connection I wouldn't arrive much later, and could often save 10-20% over DL.
I had been sticking with DL through their price hikes not matched by UA, but their secrecy is quite unsettling. I might stay through some negative changes, but only if they own up to them soon!
Mar 25, 2012, 4:39 pm
#1064
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: MKE
Programs: DL-MM-Diamond HH-Diamond
Posts: 3,218
Bubba you really need to stop with the name calling, this time you are calling people "kooks" can't you try to make a poin with out that?
Mar 25, 2012, 4:47 pm
#1065
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Anywhere I need to be.
Programs: OW Emerald, *A Gold, NEXUS, GE, ABTC/APEC, South Korea SES, eIACS, PP, Hyatt Diamond
Posts: 16,046
Oh..ok...I get it now. They are a $35 Billion+ corporation that serves countless cities in countless countries around the planet. They have a daunting labor force, an immense fleet, and are watching oil grow in price by the day. They negotiate multi-faceted labor contracts, aircraft leases, they deal with tens of thousands of contractors, and carry 88 million passengers per year. They negotiate weather, natural disasters, local unrest, and deliver people in a consistent safe manner, and do it every day. Moreover, they are consistently delivering profits for their stockholders. They deal with regulation beyond nearly any other industry. They answer to regulatory officials all over the planet. Let's drop it all and address FT paranoia based on an internet rumor. After all...this is a gathering of the airline's MOST VALUABLE customers, and has no members that are lunatic fringe kooks.
I am not a lunatic.
You seem like one because you don't seem to have many friends here.