View Poll Results: What Do You Think About the Policy Change for Award Re-Deposits and Re-Issues?
I am in favor of it.
111
13.39%
I am opposed to it and intend to be loyal to a different airline frequent flier loyalty program.
413
49.82%
I am opposed to it but will remain loyal to the Delta SkyMiles frequent flier loyalty program.
198
23.88%
I am not affected by it, am neutral about it, do not know, have no opinion or do not care.
107
12.91%
Voters: 829. You may not vote on this poll
Updated: Award Redeposit and Reissue Rule Change
Aug 10, 2011, 8:54 am
#631
In Memoriam
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 361
"Although not a commitment, I believe our Reservations and Customer Care staff will handle these situations on a case-by-case basis".
Wow, Jeff, can't even commit to having customer service handle emergencies on a case-by-case basis? I wouldn't expect a commitment to resolve them all to the customer's satisfaction, but at least committing to handling exceptional circumstances on a case-by-case basis would be reasonable.
Wow, Jeff, can't even commit to having customer service handle emergencies on a case-by-case basis? I wouldn't expect a commitment to resolve them all to the customer's satisfaction, but at least committing to handling exceptional circumstances on a case-by-case basis would be reasonable.
1. "Our Reservations and Customer Care staff will handle these situations on a case-by-case basis." would be a limited commitment.
2. "I believe our Reservations and Customer Care staff will handle these situations on a case-by-case basis." is not a commitment but holds out some hope. (I believe I will win the Lottery)
3. "Although not a commitment" immediately nullifies any subsequent statement --- You may as well say "You probably shouldn't believe what I'm about to say".
While not a commitment, I believe Delta pays Jeff good money to spew this garbage.
Aug 10, 2011, 8:56 am
#632
Join Date: May 2003
Location: NYC + LAX + SEA
Programs: DL/UA/AA/BA
Posts: 588
flawed logic - this is RASM negative
It has nothing to do with no shows, they fixed that problem 2 weeks ago.
The real reason is changes within 72 hrs. They are losing millions of miles of people changing to get low award tickets, but I am really not sure how savvy most DL DM/PM fliers really are. I think we give to much credit of people not on FT.
The real reason is changes within 72 hrs. They are losing millions of miles of people changing to get low award tickets, but I am really not sure how savvy most DL DM/PM fliers really are. I think we give to much credit of people not on FT.
Aug 10, 2011, 8:57 am
#633
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: DEN
Programs: Free checked in bag on UA & DL. Free icecream at Marriott checkin.
Posts: 2,862
Aug 10, 2011, 9:00 am
#634
Suspended
Join Date: Jun 2009
Programs: Delta skymiles DM + 1MM
Posts: 8,144
This is exactly my take on the whole situation. I read the original post from Michele and I thought the whole tone was a little belligerent and adversarial and seemed to dare us to start the conversation.
I've thought about the new policy for about 24 hours now. I now know understand how it will impact me. My loyalty is starting to wane.
I've thought about the new policy for about 24 hours now. I now know understand how it will impact me. My loyalty is starting to wane.
I repeat myself, this new Delta policy wouldn't be so bad if you could find low tiered business award tickets months out and not have to worry about waiting for the proverbial 72 hour window to open up to find the drop of low level seats.
As another user pointed out, what happens when someone books award travel and uses up 400,000 miles and has a legitimate reason to cancel within 72 hours? From what Michelle said in her only post here, agents can use discretion, but now that I think about it, what if they elect not to?
There has to be a better way to accomplish what they want to do without further screwing the elitists.
Aug 10, 2011, 9:05 am
#635
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: PHL
Programs: Chivas, Tequila, Good Beer
Posts: 615
Sunday evenings yes, I agree, empty; But then the TSA agents are so bored with the lack of activity they want to practice rectal exams on you.
Aug 10, 2011, 9:07 am
#636
FlyerTalk Evangelist & Ambassador: China
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: DEN
Programs: DL DM/MM, UA 1K, AA Exp, HH Dia, WOH Glob, IHG Plat, Marriott Gold, NA EE, Hertz PC
Posts: 17,423
No, I read it all the way through. As I mentioned in my post, she claims agents will have a measure of discretion:
But the official policy posted on Delta.com makes no mention of this flexibility, and 'extenuating circumstances' means it would be up to me to convince an agent to make an exception to the policy. I expect that, given the fantastic Chisholm agents, I could probably find someone to do it for me - but my point is simply that it's an added measure of stress that isn't there today, when award changes are officially permitted.
But the official policy posted on Delta.com makes no mention of this flexibility, and 'extenuating circumstances' means it would be up to me to convince an agent to make an exception to the policy. I expect that, given the fantastic Chisholm agents, I could probably find someone to do it for me - but my point is simply that it's an added measure of stress that isn't there today, when award changes are officially permitted.
Yes we are all "plugged in" here at FT and know about this. But think about this; most of the REALLY BIG spenders have no idea this has become LAW!
Think what will happen when the next wave finds out what DL has done.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXAGo...layer_embedded
I think the video says it all!
Think what will happen when the next wave finds out what DL has done.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXAGo...layer_embedded
I think the video says it all!
Just got my "response" from Jeff. What a laugh. My favorite excerpts:
"With over 1 million award seats cancelled or changed within 72 hours of departure (not including same-day standby and same-day confirmed) and over 400,000 of those tickets cancelled post-departure (no-shows), we needed to make this policy change."
So this change is to deal with 600K award seats (and remember, most award bookings are not non-stop, so that's really more like 200K to 300K award bookings), since the other 400K were taken care of with July's change of preventing redeposit after departure. Seems like a pretty drastic change to solve a very minor problem.
With regard to the inflexibility in the event of emergencies:
"Although not a commitment, I believe our Reservations and Customer Care staff will handle these situations on a case-by-case basis".
Wow, Jeff, can't even commit to having customer service handle emergencies on a case-by-case basis? I wouldn't expect a commitment to resolve them all to the customer's satisfaction, but at least committing to handling exceptional circumstances on a case-by-case basis would be reasonable.
"With over 1 million award seats cancelled or changed within 72 hours of departure (not including same-day standby and same-day confirmed) and over 400,000 of those tickets cancelled post-departure (no-shows), we needed to make this policy change."
So this change is to deal with 600K award seats (and remember, most award bookings are not non-stop, so that's really more like 200K to 300K award bookings), since the other 400K were taken care of with July's change of preventing redeposit after departure. Seems like a pretty drastic change to solve a very minor problem.
With regard to the inflexibility in the event of emergencies:
"Although not a commitment, I believe our Reservations and Customer Care staff will handle these situations on a case-by-case basis".
Wow, Jeff, can't even commit to having customer service handle emergencies on a case-by-case basis? I wouldn't expect a commitment to resolve them all to the customer's satisfaction, but at least committing to handling exceptional circumstances on a case-by-case basis would be reasonable.
to the response, no consideration. Seems like case closed.He writes in the end how tough it was a decision. As if he was doing it for us.
Two weeks ago, we were told:
"... Last year, our planes departed with more than 400,000 empty seats because customers had Award Tickets booked but did not physically fly in those seats. This change to our redeposit policy will make those seats available to other members and ultimately increase our Award Ticket availability."
Now we hear:
"...we determined that there are more than 1,000,000 award seats that were going unused at the 72 hour mark prior to departure. That is 3 days in which those seats could otherwise be sold or used for other SkyMiles members who truly intend to sit in the seat and travel. "
Unless both "facts" were plucked out of thin air (a very real possibility). it would seem that 60% of the seats available at T-72 hours are sold before flight time. 60% are "otherwise ... sold or used."
So, the picture is no more bleak than it was two weeks ago... 400,000 allegedly empty seats per year... or 0.5 seats per flight (assuming 65,000 flights per month).
One seat on every other flight...
I have learned to be suspicious when a DL exec's lips start moving.
I'd have to see an independent audit of the numbers before I believe this.
BTW... I have to assume that our meek acceptance of the first restriction two weeks ago emboldened them to implement the second, more severe restriction.
What comes next if we roll over on this one?
"... Last year, our planes departed with more than 400,000 empty seats because customers had Award Tickets booked but did not physically fly in those seats. This change to our redeposit policy will make those seats available to other members and ultimately increase our Award Ticket availability."
Now we hear:
"...we determined that there are more than 1,000,000 award seats that were going unused at the 72 hour mark prior to departure. That is 3 days in which those seats could otherwise be sold or used for other SkyMiles members who truly intend to sit in the seat and travel. "
Unless both "facts" were plucked out of thin air (a very real possibility). it would seem that 60% of the seats available at T-72 hours are sold before flight time. 60% are "otherwise ... sold or used."
So, the picture is no more bleak than it was two weeks ago... 400,000 allegedly empty seats per year... or 0.5 seats per flight (assuming 65,000 flights per month).
One seat on every other flight...
I have learned to be suspicious when a DL exec's lips start moving.
I'd have to see an independent audit of the numbers before I believe this.
BTW... I have to assume that our meek acceptance of the first restriction two weeks ago emboldened them to implement the second, more severe restriction.
What comes next if we roll over on this one?
Delta has already spoke on the issue and it stands as is: "There will be no further discussion". The reality is you are giving them way too much credit...this was not done to fix a problem..there are a million ways (you suggest one of them) to do that and to suggest that the folks at DL are not smart enough to think of them is really really naive. This was done because too many people are getting at the "hidden" Low availability otherwise they would have done it differently.
Aug 10, 2011, 9:08 am
#637
Suspended
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Look up - On a ✈ DELTA ✈ jet NOW!
Programs: Blogger & Delta Diamond Medallion Million Miler
Posts: 4,174
no word from OFFICAL DELTA people so far?
Does anyone else find it funny that with this soon becoming the biggest thread on DELTA FT that there has not been one word from the DELTA REP?
Could it be that the CEO has said you are DONE and we are DONE here?
Could it be that the CEO has said you are DONE and we are DONE here?
Aug 10, 2011, 9:08 am
#638
Moderator, Delta Skymiles and Mileage Run
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Seat 2A
Programs: DL Diamond/MM, Hyatt Diamond, former AS MVPG 75K, Marriott Titanium, Hilton Gold
Posts: 2,940
I emailed Jeff Robertson and Richard Anderson last night. This morning I got a response from Jeff Robertson:
Yngdiego,
Thanks for your feedback and for sharing your disappointment with regards to this policy change. It was a decision that we did not take lightly and something we carefully analyzed. With over 1 million award seats cancelled or changed within 72 hours of departure (not including same-day standby and same-day confirmed) and over 400,000 of those tickets cancelled post-departure (no-shows), we needed to make this policy change. By limiting the window to 72 hours, we tried to retain as much flexiblity for customers in advance, and still balance the need to reallocate use of seats that are held and then ultimately canceled.
Several customers have mentioned to me in the last day or two that in situations out of a customer's control, the new policy limits flexiblity. Although not a commitment, I believe our Reservations and Customer Care staff will handle these situations on a case-by-case basis, and as with any of our policies, make exceptions as necessary.
Again, I appreciate your feedback and understand your disappointment; however, it was a tough decision that we had to make.
----
Another canned response that doesn't address any of the concerns I expressed. I even stated I'm fine with the foreifiting of miles if you are a NO SHOW.
Yngdiego,
Thanks for your feedback and for sharing your disappointment with regards to this policy change. It was a decision that we did not take lightly and something we carefully analyzed. With over 1 million award seats cancelled or changed within 72 hours of departure (not including same-day standby and same-day confirmed) and over 400,000 of those tickets cancelled post-departure (no-shows), we needed to make this policy change. By limiting the window to 72 hours, we tried to retain as much flexiblity for customers in advance, and still balance the need to reallocate use of seats that are held and then ultimately canceled.
Several customers have mentioned to me in the last day or two that in situations out of a customer's control, the new policy limits flexiblity. Although not a commitment, I believe our Reservations and Customer Care staff will handle these situations on a case-by-case basis, and as with any of our policies, make exceptions as necessary.
Again, I appreciate your feedback and understand your disappointment; however, it was a tough decision that we had to make.
----
Another canned response that doesn't address any of the concerns I expressed. I even stated I'm fine with the foreifiting of miles if you are a NO SHOW.
Aug 10, 2011, 9:16 am
#639
Suspended
Join Date: Jun 2009
Programs: Delta skymiles DM + 1MM
Posts: 8,144
From Anet; N7371f writes:
Plus, your argument buys into the Delta-made excuse that all of these seats go unused. Well what is the incentive for the passenger to notify Delta they're not flying on an award ticket? There isn't one. Whether you call or not within 72 hours, you lose the mileage. It creates no different a scenario than what Delta wants people to believe is the core problem.
This essentially, to a degree, discredits what Michelle said in her one and only post.
Plus, your argument buys into the Delta-made excuse that all of these seats go unused. Well what is the incentive for the passenger to notify Delta they're not flying on an award ticket? There isn't one. Whether you call or not within 72 hours, you lose the mileage. It creates no different a scenario than what Delta wants people to believe is the core problem.
This essentially, to a degree, discredits what Michelle said in her one and only post.
Aug 10, 2011, 9:23 am
#640
Suspended
Join Date: Jun 2009
Programs: Delta skymiles DM + 1MM
Posts: 8,144
Delta Planes don't go out with all the empty seats they claim. Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't there a point in time before the scheduled departure time when there is a no-show that Delta will fill that seat with a passenger flying standby, waiting for a SDC or a non-rev?
Aug 10, 2011, 9:23 am
#641
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: LAX/BOS/HKG/AMS/SFO...hmm, I need a life.
Programs: United1K, AA ExPlAAt, DL MM/Gold, Hilton Diamond, Avis First
Posts: 13,316
Aug 10, 2011, 9:25 am
#642
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: PHL
Programs: Delta PM, HHonors Silver, AVIS First
Posts: 275
Actually none of this is surprising, given that they have been handing out miles like candy.
To balance the insane amounts of miles they've been dispensing, they've had to balance that by making it much harder to use them, and to require SkyMiles members to use more of them to accomplish the same thing.
I suspect if they didn't toss loads of miles at folks every time they complain, and give heaps of them away in AmEx promos and double and triple MQM bonus schemes, etc., we wouldn't even be having this conversation.
IMO, we're looking at the end result of a massive currency devaluation.
To balance the insane amounts of miles they've been dispensing, they've had to balance that by making it much harder to use them, and to require SkyMiles members to use more of them to accomplish the same thing.
I suspect if they didn't toss loads of miles at folks every time they complain, and give heaps of them away in AmEx promos and double and triple MQM bonus schemes, etc., we wouldn't even be having this conversation.
IMO, we're looking at the end result of a massive currency devaluation.
Aug 10, 2011, 9:25 am
#643
Join Date: Dec 2009
Programs: DL PM, Hyatt Plat, SPG Gold
Posts: 1,082
Steve Martin's "Jubiliation Day" Song describe the situation
Aug 10, 2011, 9:27 am
#644
Join Date: Mar 2010
Programs: DL PM, Bonvoy Gold
Posts: 8,414
Aug 10, 2011, 9:29 am
#645
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: JFK,ATL,LGA (the rest of the world follows)
Programs: DL KM/DM/2MM (NH Plat emeritus, CO Plat emeritus, and no place like home)
Posts: 3,190
notice the wording...
"Over the past year, more than 1,000,000 Award Tickets were reissued or canceled within 72 hours of departure"
Reissued- every minor change=reissue! why do we need changes?
Well- award calendar is STILL broken!
routes open in 72 hours!
all of a sudden, lower skymiles award is open! why? because you did not sell it and now you 'throw' it to SM!
Then, even if you say all seats are no show, and you take the upper number-1 million, it means 2,740 seats a day, or 1 or less seats per flight (assuming 3,500-4,000 flights a day). Delta-NO SOUP. You just want to erase more miles from the books! you want to hurt the clients, and you want to do it with retroactive affect on terms of sale. I hope the DOT would make enough negative noise on your end. Always good to keep good relations with the regulator.
Reissued- every minor change=reissue! why do we need changes?
Well- award calendar is STILL broken!
routes open in 72 hours!
all of a sudden, lower skymiles award is open! why? because you did not sell it and now you 'throw' it to SM!
Then, even if you say all seats are no show, and you take the upper number-1 million, it means 2,740 seats a day, or 1 or less seats per flight (assuming 3,500-4,000 flights a day). Delta-NO SOUP. You just want to erase more miles from the books! you want to hurt the clients, and you want to do it with retroactive affect on terms of sale. I hope the DOT would make enough negative noise on your end. Always good to keep good relations with the regulator.