Perfect. I assumed a customer copy denominated in HKD without DCC verbiage would be DCC free. Thanks for confirming. ^

As I said, I was surprised since I've never seen DCC offered on transportation before.

MTR AEL terminal - I think since it's DCC-enabled I think it's hard coded to hold in DCC rates. But it respects your eventual choice to be billed in HKD.

I got a little bit of good news regarding the DCCing of my hotel bill at the Regal HKG Airport Hotel. I wrote the front desk manager, complaining about being DCCed without my consent, especially after explicitly telling the front desk clerk NOT to charge my CC in USD, but in HKD (I never got a CC signature slip w/ the check boxes, just a hotel bill/invoice A4 printout in HKD). He apologized & stated that refunding me the $4.24 (33 HKD) DCC overcharge would be complicated, so he offered me a room upgrade & executive lounge access on my next stay there.

Good for you :cool:

But I do remember someone on this forum received similar treatment before, probably in Germany?

Yes, I got a similar treatment from the Frankfurt Marriott after being hit with DCC. The general manager offered to refund the approximately €5 of DCC or give 1000 Marriott Rewards points. Even valuating at less than 1¢/point it was a no brainer to take the points.

Fellow FlyerTalk member percysmith and I ate at Greyhound Cafe tonight, and we were unable to dodge DCC. A post will follow...

We've just been.

After 2 hours of banter and four dishes we decided to get the bill.

I explained to the waitress in Cantonese that my friend (Majuki; should be cxua but it's not obvious from his redacted card slip) had a problem with the card charge last time and whilst we are not asking for any compensation we would like to see how the charge is made. She said she will fetch the manager.

The manager arrived shortly after and I explained the problem. He showed us to the card terminal and attempted to charge Majuki's CSP. I admit I had the better view of the terminal so I will describe what I saw.

1. Manager puts card into chip reader slot of card terminal
2. Terminal displays "Connecting" in English and Chinese and counts down from about 40
3. For about *2* seconds, the display shows "Enquiry" in English (and some Chinese characters I can't see as I was peeking beside the manager in the very cramped cashier's closet). In the centre of the bottom edge I see "Opt" but there is no button directly corresponding to the button.
4. Once it times out, the countdown continues
5. The carbon DCC slip is printed out with the tick boxes .

The manager then voids the slip. The USD amount is shown as credited.

I asked the manager to repeat once, but press cancel in (3). He duly did, the countdown contined but the result (and the void) is still the same.

Majuki then asked if there is any post-transaction input he can make. The manager confirmed no.

I then asked the manager:
"Who is the acquirer? Global Payments?"
"Not that"
"BoC"
"Not that either"
"Do you mind if I ask who it is?"
"HSBC"

I thanked the manager and presented my HSBC HK Plat Visa for payment. He voided majuki's second slip and charged mine.

I confirmed HSBC cannot be an acquirer so when an merchant says his acquirer is HSBC he meant Global Payments (confirmed here http://www.visa-asia.com/ap/hk/en_US...ingbanks.shtml) - probably HSBC handles all post-acquisition remittance to the merchants so they are not aware of Global Payments' role at all.

I also think Greyhound is not to blame in all this. The manager is profesional, apologetic for the previous DCC and co-operative even though he did not invite us to solve his DCC problem (unlike moondog's 蛇口 restaurant).

I await majuki's redacted photos of his CSP slips. I will also send a PM to both majuki and cxua.

First, thank you for the recap and explaining the situation to the manager. I wouldn't have been able to negotiate the situation without your help. I do think the manager was being accommodating, but there was really nothing that could be done, so we had the manager void both transactions.

Here are the two charge attempts and corresponding void slips:

http://i.imgur.com/ZYh0eaQm.jpg

I checked my online account, and the void charges are there too:

http://i.imgur.com/PsoFYbzm.jpg

The DCC markup is 4.2% above the Visa rate. So our 565.00 HKD transaction was quoted with a DCC amount 75.92 USD. Using the October 11th Visa rate the, the charge should have been 72.86 USD, so the difference was 3.06 USD. We made the executive decision to have percysmith make the charge in his card denominated in HKD. I hope cxua can pursue a successful chargeback and that Chase follows through, but I have my doubts that they will with such a small difference.

Some data points from HK:

Respected my DCC choice:
Marks & Spencer (All Branches)
La Rotisserie
Others that don't come to mind right now.

Did not respect my DCC choice:
Ajisan Ramen
El Taco Loco

Overall DCC is not that high in HK from my experiences. Say around 10%. Of those only a few were problems. Though I must say I was surprised at the one time I had to use a MC in Shenzhen I thought I would have to chargeback but it processed correctly.

Did these establishments use the carbon copy paper like above?

Also, can someone comment on whether or not 7/11 in HK uses DCC? Would they balk at a small credit card purchase? I've been using an Octopus card, but I'd rather charge if I know it's safe from DCC.

I used my US Visa card at 7/11 several times in HK and never got DCCed. They also let me use it for small purchases w/ no problems.

7-eleven: provided there is no queue. If there is you may get dissed by the queue and the cashier will frown.

7-eleven acquirer is (as with other dairy farm HK and Macau operations) hang Seng bank, which although majority owned by HSBC it is operationally separate from HSBC and its arrangement to refer customers to global payments.

Other known merchants acquired by HSBC (global payments) http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=8062&p=6: citysuper, G2000, marks & Spencer, dcfever，Aeon (former Jusco dept stores), Bellini Restaurant, Cafe Eos, Apple Store, Jumbo-Computer Mong Kok.

M&S respects DCC choices (sneezyalex #1168) even tho from my last week's purchases M&S has a standalone card terminal like greyhound and coyote. I wonder whether M&S is big enough to make Global Payments disable DCC, but smaller merchants like coyote and greyhound are not?

So 7/11 is safe from DCC, and the only problem I'd have is the long queue of passengers. :)

It would be interesting to see what combination of buttons M&S presses to disable DCC or what kind of input they have after they run the card. I could try to go there and recreate the circumstances from Greyhound Cafe. I have a question for sneezyalex... When at M&S do you receive any final slip in HKD only, or you just get the initial carbon copy slip with the check boxes and nothing more?

Finally, the voided transactions from last night at Greyhound Cafe have already fallen off of the pending transactions on my Chase Sapphire Preferred. It's like it never even happened. :D

Majuki: m&s is thermal slip. So the terminal cannot be identical.

My wife and I went to Francfranc this afternoon to pick up a few things. Upon checkout my wife said, "Don't you want to ask for HKD?" I replied, "I don't think this place would be likely to do DCC." I was wrong. I clearly saw the thermal slip print out with the check boxes. Before I signed, I told the cashier, "I want HKD." She seemed surprised and confirmed my choice but knew the routine. I received this final receipt:

http://i.imgur.com/ARkPaZsm.jpg

I've replaced the last four digits of the card with XXXX, removed my name, and removed the approval code. Otherwise, the receipt is unaltered from my customer copy. The curious thing about this is I believe the (M) indicates a manual entry of the card number. Since it wasn't an EMV transaction, the receipt wouldn't contain APP/AID/TC information, but otherwise the presentation is identical to my transaction from the AEL ticket counter at HKIA that I talked about in post 1158. So, while the acquirer isn't listed on this receipt, I would say Francfranc uses Citibank.

The HK$1691.50 transaction is pending as $229.00. Using the current Visa rate:

1691.50 HKD x 0.128948 USD/HKD = 218.12 USD

I didn't read the signature receipt closely with HKD, but the calculations show a DCC rate of 4.99% or a ripoff of 10.88 USD above the Visa rate. I'd be comfortable classifying this DCC rate as usurious. :td:

The font and the style of the slip suggests it's a Spectratech www.spectratech.com slip. Spectratech terminals are distributed by Hang Seng, Global Payments, Citi, BoC and Dah Sing to their merchants.

I have a slip with very similar to yours, I know my slip (my dermatologist's) is acquired by Dah Sing, but your MID is very different from mine.

Too hard to guess from a Spectratech slip alone. Also Spectratech combines acquirers that have problems (Global Payments and BoC) and those that appear to be able to opt out (Citi). Your Francfranc MID is also different to AEL (Citi).

You found me eating at Greyhound again, this time at IFC with another visitor - the MID for Greyhound IFC is very simliar to Greyhound Taikoo Shing (same first seven digits; I stopped my friend from trying to pay with his AUD Visa based on your card slip from last night). I also have two Hang Seng slips (one Thai Basil and the other Simplylife - both Dairy Farm restaurants) also have very similar MID (same first three digits).

I successfully opted out of DCC in this case, right? I know a few posts ago you said M&S is Global Payments but respects DCC choices. As I said, the cashier was taken aback by my request to be billed in HKD, but I'm reasonably assured - hopefully? - with this slip that DCC did not take place. If DCC did happen, I'll get my first chance at a chargeback.

Good call on not using the AUD denominated Visa. I assume it was the same carbon copy paper as the location in Taikoo Shing?

Any interesting stories over here recently?

That's the only bad thing about a dedicated citi section opening up. I tend to hang out there most often nowadays, and don't see/check out other threads (in this section) as much now

If China is notorious in DCC but cannot be tamed because it's in China, how come a global company (Global Payments) can violate Visa/MC rules in HK and no one is there to stop it?

Strange experience in HKG
 

About 3 weeks ago we had morning tea at Tao Heung where the cashiers told me they would take any credit card except cards issued by mainland China banks :confused:

At payment I told them to bill in HKD. The cashier retorted that it would always be HKD, that they could not do anything else even if the customer wanted non HKD.

The slip presented to me to sign was in HKD. Nothing remotely showed any DCC possibility.

After signing, she handed me a completely different looking receipt - on it, it was clearly DCCed with that annoying statement about being informed the option and such...

The authorization on my Barclays Arrival Plus was DCCed with about 4% padding.

YET, the charge posted without DCC padding.

I am utterly confused on what happened but of course no complain.

Several other Chinese restaurants used Hang Seng's POS with the receipts in a form, rather than the thermal slip. All of them did not have DCC.

The following part of trip was in France. Not a single time even encounter DCC attempt. Granted, we did not shop at Lafayette. ;) I wonder the Chinese crowds that formed long lines in front of any LV stores would be DCCed? :p

On the front portion of the trip we were in China - virtually not a single place we went - from attractions to restaurants, would take credit card so we had to use cash - extremely annoying because 1) lose earning on CC. 2) need to keep track of bills etc. All hotel stays were on points and only had to pay small taxes at Sheraton Guilin - the ONLY time I used CC which I opted for AMEX Plat and said card was also used for "deposit" as the Chinese called it, at each check in. STRANGELY, I could not see ANY such authorization as pending on AMEX online account but chat rep confirmed the authorizations were there. At check out, all hotels did a reversal of the authorization but AMEX claimed they did not see it - so the authorizations fell off by themselves after 8 business days. Odd. Why would authorizations made in China not showed up on AMEX online as Pending?

On a trip in May that included Seoul, Taipei and Hong Kong, as well as Milan and Veneto region - never encountered DCC in any of the cities where I used a few Visa cards exclusively.

[POLITICAL]Cos we are becoming Just Another Chinese City[/POLITICAL]

[PRACTICAL]1. Cos acquirers in HK don't have to identify themselves in on transaction slips (or at least by Merchant ID akin to PRC) - it takes a dedicated bunch of freaks (i.e. FTers) (hongkongcard.comers also do a good job but we don't get DCCed at home) to bug merchants who they bank with

2. Banks are severely regulated. But Global Payments is a non-bank acquirer[/PRACTICAL]

Post #407 zyxlsy "My experience of DCC is that they hold the DCC amount, and then show the correct amount."

Further evidence Hang Seng appears to be quite compliant (see HK 7-eleven experiences above)

Chanel or Pierre Herme didn't try to DCC my missus
Citypharma offered DCC but my missus had full control of DCC choice via PIN pad

Actually Gallaries Lafayette (which we didn't buy anything from in this year's trip) also gives a choice, but cashier controls it. Even in my dotted-line boss's case, the cashier probably did ask, but she chose HKD and then couldn't change it.

Same too for our 2012 Shenzhen hot pot trip.

We didn't have a V/M spend promo for our 2013 trip (the only place we used a MasterCard was Westin Nanshan for the missus' SPG renewal, and we opted out of DCC there without issue).

We will not go to Shenzhen for Christmas for 2014 or 2015 because the Christmases are long weekends and we'll go ski/hot springs in Japan.


Seoul - only encountered DCC once http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...hp?id=4303&p=3 23
Taipei - quite a bit, but very compliant now with quote slip, pause to take in your choice and clean cardholder slips since 2012.
Milan/Venice/Florence - DCC not encountered even in Venice Chinese tourist traps.

We've now got cases of forced DCC in HK and are attempting to push through a Reason Code 76 chargeback for one of the merchants.

As for the reason why this is happening in HK, percysmith posted what I was thinking while I was writing this reply. :D

I know it's harder to prove a negative, but can we reasonably say that Italy is (mostly) DCC free?

I'm surprised that Happy didn't see DCC in Taipei. DCC is thoroughly rampant in Taiwan, but fortunately the merchants are 100% compliant.

Did the receipt just contain the DCC verbiage or was it denominated in USD? I think this is similar to my experience at Chung Yo Department Store in Taichung. You can clearly see the DCC wording, but the charge is in NTD and there is no mention of USD on the receipt. While the DCC amount is held in this case, as others have pointed out, the transaction will post without DCC.

You have to worry when you get final receipts with: [ ]HKD [ ]USD and nothing checked (such as carbon copy slips), [X]USD checked, or DCC verbiage with a USD amount/exchange rate included on the receipt. For instance, percysmith and I ate at Greyhound Cafe on Saturday night, and we were presented with the carbon copy charge slip. If you tick [X]HKD AMOUNT, nothing will happen. There is no cashier interaction with the terminal regarding currency selection after running the transaction.

Not directly DCC
But i wrote a Vietnamese merchant who advertise a Halong Bay cruise in USD
I asked them to confirm whether they are billing in USD or VND
Had to write them twice
They confirmed VND <-- this is important for me to know because I will USD card on USD merchants

I know I must sound like a fool, but what is the difference between a thermal and carbon slip? Is the carbon one just given after the transaction?

Has anyone encountered DCC here? I mean with foreigners since we have USD denominated cards.

I'm doing well so far... DFS and MTR transactions posted at $34.82 and $20.63 respectively, which matches the Visa rates. Based on the way the MTR transaction went, I am fairly confident Francfranc will post without DCC too. I'm still waiting on Taiwan HSR (no DCC) and Novotel (opted out of DCC) to post from last week as well.

My spouse and I went to Disneyland Hong Kong today, and I decided to use my Chase Sapphire Preferred knowing that I'd be gearing up for a battle. The POS system did not disappoint as I saw the carbon copy print out:

http://i.imgur.com/j9QjcxQm.jpg

The exchange was as follows:

Me: I want to be charged HKD.
Cashier: Here... ::circles HKD:: Hong Kong Dollars
Me: I sign and then what happens? How do I make sure it's HKD
Cashier: If you circle HKD you get Hong Kong Dollars
Me: Do you press a button to make sure I get Hong Kong Dollars?

The cashier at this point handed me the thermal slip:

http://i.imgur.com/6xTS9AKm.jpg

The thermal slip didn't contain any mention of DCC, USD, or an exchange rate. It's denominated in HKD, and the trace code is one higher than the carbon copy slip. This gave me enough reassurance that the [X]HKD was in the system, but all too often we've heard the case with carbon copy slips that your manual tick on the box just goes into a black hole, and the only time it would be consulted would be during a chargeback.

We had dinner at Maxim's, and I have to admit that I copped out and paid with AmEx to avoid my wife rolling her eyes:

http://i.imgur.com/ZJEKPG6m.jpg

I'll look at the exchange rate once the transaction posts to see how AmEx's rate compares to Visa's. I'd imagine for HKD that the rates would be about the same since the HKD:USD is pegged to a narrow band.

See my post (post 1188) above with references to carbon copy and thermal slip. A carbon copy receipt contains two or more sheets of paper. A dot matrix printer prints up the receipt on the top copy (merchant copy), and this is duplicated on the bottom copy (customer copy). Likewise, when you sign the merchant copy, a copy of your signature is automatically imprinted on the customer copy below.

A thermal slip is the one we're used to seeing in the US. It's called a thermal slip because the white paper will turn black when exposed to heat. Most new point of sale terminals use thermal paper. However, in Hong Kong carbon copy slips are far more prevalent. The good thing for us with carbon copy slips is that your currency choice is abundantly clear and provides rock solid evidence if your issuer pursues a Reason Code 76 chargeback.

It happens but with far, far less frequency. Most of us have USD denominated cards, so you're right... we won't see DCC. The only time I've seen it mentioned has been at DFS stores, which all seem to use similar style payment terminals. There was also a case of a gentleman from Saudi Arabia renting a car through Avis in Florida who got billed in Riyals rather than USD. In his case, it was frustrating because the exchange rate is fixed. It's just like here in HK where there is no reason on earth why you need to lock in the (poor) exchange rate.

I have a few theories on why DCC is rare in the US. The first is the market size. The US has hundreds of millions of cardholders with USD denominated cards. These far outweigh the non-USD denominated cards. While cards denominated in the local currency very likely comprise the vast majority of cards in a particular area, I would venture a guess that the number of non-HKD denominated cards both in absolute numbers as well as as a percentage of the all credit card holders currently in HK is higher than in even a place like NYC. So, I don't think that even with DCC in the US that it would ensnare many people.

Second, the US is an extremely litigious society. Do you think some of these non-compliant acquirers/merchants would survive a class action lawsuit from thousands of angry cardholders whose currency choices weren't respected? DCC is scammy and deceptive in how it's implemented in every case I've seen, even when I've been given a clear choice. Eventually, we would need big bold letters indicating exactly the percentage of the DCC markup just like we need calorie counts on menus or warning labels to let us know our coffee is hot.

Third, I've heard the argument that DCC is mostly something that sprout up in response to consumer demand, namely from American cardholders when traveling overseas. Some Americans demand to know how much an item costs in "real money" or wonder why they can't pay in dollars everywhere they go. DCC allows them to do this, and by all means I'm for merchants making a slight profit off of these types. The problem is that there is a lot of collateral damage. Most Americans I've met abroad do not fall into the ugly American stereotype. However, unless you're like the few of us on this thread, you probably won't know how to opt out of DCC or realize you've been struck.

I would be surprised if many merchants in the US support DCC, but what we really need to do is get reports from people who've tried their cards at the you-name-it big box retailers, restaurants, and department stores. I'm really curious to know if Macy's, Bloomingdale's, Nordstrom and the like have DCC.

From my experience with AMEX is that only US domestic authorizations show as "pending" & foreign transactions only show after they have posted.

Hong Kong Disney used to have info screen of the POS hanging onto the glass so you see your options "USD" and "HKD" and even their final amounts.

Not anymore?

I didn't see any display screen like at DFS or some other stores where the cashier will point to the screen and you choose. In those cases, I've never seen the DCC verbiage on my receipt, and the non-DCC amount has been held.

The way it works now is they give you a carbon copy slip with the rate printed on that slip. I don't like these carbon copy slips because you don't know what happens after the fact. As we've seen in the cases of Greyound Cafe and Coyote Bar in Hong Kong, the cashier just files away the merchant copy of the receipt, but there is no further input on the part of the cashier to select the currency. I have been taught to be extremely skeptical that my currency choice will be honored when I see the boxes on a carbon copy receipt. In this case the card terminal seems integrated with the register, and the trace number was higher for the detailed receipt. This detailed receipt only showed a HKD amount, so I have reason to believe I have been opted out successfully.



More transactions posted...

TW Transactions:

1) Taiwan HSR (no DCC) posted at $38.82:

1180 TWD x 0.032902 USD/TWD = 38.82 USD

2) Novotel Taoyuan (DCC opt out) posted at $217.88:

6622 TWD x 0.032902 USD/TWD = 217.88 USD

228.17 USD - 217.88 USD = 10.29 USD saved by not using DCC

And this concludes another DCC-free trip to Taiwan... terminals are still fully compliant, and cashiers respect DCC choices. ^

HK Transactions:

3) Francfranc (DCC opt out) posted at $218.12:

1691.50 HKD x 0.128948 USD/HKD = 218.12 USD

229.00 USD - 218.12 USD = 10.88 USD saved by not using DCC

I did suggest (to majuki I think) banks may eventually respond to this by issuing multi-currency cards to try recapture the DCC profit.

Actually after reading ausbt.com.au I realised Commonwealth Bank of Australia has been doing this for some time https://www.commbank.com.au/personal...ard.html...but the rates on that product are so toxic https://service.commbank.com.au/tool...alculator.aspx it might be simpler to just accept DCC than use that product.

Don't even get me started on Commonwealth Bank. We had to send an International Money Transfer (wire) from my sister-in-law's account to our bank stateside, and I cringed at the loss on the transfer in terms of percentage and dollar value. It didn't help that we waited until June to do the transfer rather back when the AUD was stronger compared to the USD. My sample size for international wire transfers is small, but in comparison the Bank of Taiwan has a great USD sell rate that's on par with the FX rate, and the only fee is the 400 TWD transfer fee (<$15 US).

It's also likely that banks will move to foreign transaction fees rather than currency exchange fees much like US banks have. Even if you accept DCC it doesn't matter. You're getting smacked with a 1-3% FTF on cards that have one in addition to the poor DCC rate.

https://www.commbank.com.au/personal...s-charges.html

International Transaction5 :
Transactions converted by MasterCard® or Visa (5): 3.00%
Transactions converted by American Express® (5) : 2.00%
Transactions overseas but in Australian dollars(6): 2.00%

The fees are only 1% apart.
It's just whether you like to be scalped by Commbank or scalped by Global Payments and its ilk.

I happily pay for my mates when they are here or when we're travelling around Asia. They then credit my Australian NAB/HSBC accounts at the Yahoo mid-rate. I spend down the Aussies when the missus and I visit down under (it costs us a fair bit to convert into Aussies too)

Have we ever seen a DCC scalp at 1%? In most cases you're paying the 2% + 4-5% DCC scalp. At least they're more generous. US issuers typically bill you the 3% regardless of whether or not Visa/MC performs the exchange.

For HKD, Commbank is currently offering 6.4646 for their Travel Money Card. Yahoo rate is currently 6.801 (5% less). Choose your poison.

My spouse says I should just apply for a HK bank account and credit card. :D If I'm not feeling like a fight I just use AmEx. If that option ever goes away I don't know what I'll do.

Banks here will accept your overseas passport and (mailed) overseas residential address proof, but you have to get money here and keep the account active through use.

Alright, I think I successfully dodged DCC in HK with an honorable mention to percysmith to assisting me at Greyhound Cafe. While we weren't able to get out of DCC there, he helped me void the sale, which in turn avoided DCC.

I still have two pending transactions, the one from Disneyland and a second transaction from today at Franc Franc. Fortunately, I know how the Franc Franc transaction will play out based on experience. I'm hopeful that Disneyland will be without DCC too.

I had an interesting experience upon checkout at the Courtyard on Hong Kong Island. The BoC terminal that they use will not print the DCC verbiage nor hold the DCC amount for a PREAUTH. The carbon copy receipt I signed was denominated in HKD, but I was so fixated on looking for the DCC verbiage and the transaction amount that I failed to notice that the transaction was HK$9298 whereas my bill was HK$9295. Not wanting a back office reconciliation that resulted in DCC, I returned to the front desk and got them to void the first sale. I had them rerun the transaction (again in HKD) for the correct amount of HK$9295. I will post receipts when I get home and have access to my scanner. Meanwhile, I'm enjoying my last 30 mintues at the Wing CX lounge at HKG.

With the help of percysmith, moondog, cxua, and I will be following up with the non-compliant Global Payments terminal to see if we can't get the situation rectified.

Thanks again to percysmith for your help at Greyhound Cafe. ^

Also, the Disneyland Maxim Palace receipt posted. They used a rate of 0.128907 for 10/13. Visa's HKD:USD rate for 10/13 was 0.128948. AmEx's rate is 0.032% lower than Visa's for this transaction, but I would consider them to be practically the same. However, I recognize that this is a) only one data point and b) for a currency fixed to the USD within a narrow exchange rate.