What I meant was that most issuers will just do a courtesy adjustment of the customer's account rather than go through the process of filing a Reason Code 76 chargeback to the merchant, especially if the amount in dispute is under $5-10. It's just like in the EMV thread. I'm sure issuers got tired of a small but vocal minority of customers continuously complaining that their cards were being refused overseas. Sure, you had some companies like CapitalOne saying, "Under the rules of the merchant agreement... blah blah blah... accept all cards." However, many larger US issuers started to offer EMV options about two years ago. It's likely things would have moved in this direction eventually, but I don't think you can ignore those US cardholders who were clamoring for EMV options on their cards.

All I would care about is a Visa/MC DCC compliant choice when doing the transaction. In some locations, China being the worst offender, the DCC scam happens automatically. I wouldn't really care if merchants prey on ignorant tourists. However, I would still continue my educational campaign against DCC. Of course the merchants love DCC. It's an easy way to skim off between 3-5% (typical DCC markup rates) on top of whatever profit you're making on the transaction. Depending on what your card fees are, it's possible for them to recoup those by accepting an international card. Processors push DCC onto merchants as an additional revenue stream for the business, sometimes unknowingly. I would say the worst offenders here are the payment processors in revenue sharing agreements with the merchants because they bear no responsibility when things go south and the merchant gets stuck with the headache of a chargeback.

However, for every unsuspecting merchant who may have inadvertently turned on DCC, there are many merchants are super guilty in the DCC scam. We've read reports here where cashiers/proprietors of shops have said, "Great choice!" when a customer has accepted DCC. Yeah... great choice for the business! Other times the merchant has said, "No choice." when a customer is requesting local currency. This is why I don't like banks issuing courtesy credits to accounts since the merchant continues to get away with the scam.

Probably the worst offenders in all of this are ignorant tourists who refuse to be educated. The only effective means of education is letting them know they got ripped off big time, especially if they were using a card with a 3% FTF. "Did you know you just paid an 8% tourist tax on that purchase?" It's one downside of using plastic. You wouldn't tolerate it if the merchant did a bait and switch on the price or shortchanged you if you paid cash, but there's a disconnect when people use a credit card. If the number of tourists who cared about DCC reached critical mass, I think merchants would either a) put a stop to the practice completely or b) at the very least allow customers a clear and conscientious choice in whether or not to accept DCC.

The bottom line is that DCC should be an opt-in service. As it stands today, it's mostly an opt-out situation, and some places don't even give you the ability to opt out.

I have limited experience with debit cards in HK, but when I used one for deposit in Australia I saw A$100 line item in my Australian bank online banking as I've withdrawn it, but the transaction description marks it as a an authorisation. The line is no longer shown 6 days later.

I've worried we'll soon lose this right.

In most merchants I came across in Korea, and at least in El Cortes Ingles in Madrid, my signatures (HK is still Chip and Sign for the time being until HKMA decides otherwise) are collected by signature pad.

To my surprise, even HK has this. This is in the Coach Shop run by DFS inside the departure area, I don't usually shop there but I was accompanying someone who did:

http://www.hongkongcard.com/webedito...1029_67793.jpg

I took pic of it because it of the FX margin disclosure "FX Margin includes 3.95%"

We didn't test the DCC function as neither of us had our non-HKD cards on us. But with pads like this, you lose the ability to signify any non-compliance in writing.

It's like in the US where most major retailers use signature pads. It's cleaner from a POS perspective since the retailer doesn't have to worry about not having captured your signature.

I would say in these cases that it's more favorable to the consumer in the case of a chargeback, however. While you can scribble your intentions like you can with a paper receipt, it's harder to prove that you were given a choice as a customer with a non-compliant POS setup like this. Is there any indication that you'll get hit with DCC before you sign? If the register is showing USD, for instance, I might sign as "LOCAL OPTION NOT OFFERED :("

I don't know about on their systems, but the ones I've seen in the US sometimes don't give any visibility to the cashier what the person is signing on the digital pad. In fact, a friend of mine from Europe visited the US for the first time in 2006 and was so infatuated with the signature pads that he started drawing cartoons or signing his name as "John Smith". Of course, in the US, pretty much nobody ever checks signatures for a credit card purchase, so perhaps such a charade wouldn't hold up overseas.

Majuki: well yes I can sign a protest in the signature pad, tho I have to be pretty neat about the handwriting.

I think I have to still need to sign alongside the statement. Imagine this happened in the harrods case (DCC selected by cashier, no void in hkd, but a pad is used to collect my signature instead of an integrated sales invoice-card slip) - the British are strict about checking signatures on chip and sign cards. If I didn't sign the pad the cashier will take away the goods and initiate a refund (in GBP) - so I have to scribble my statement on the pad, sign it and photo it (HK banks put proof of burden on cardholder) before the cashier clears the pad from her cashier-side input - Urrrggghhh

Wouldn't you say that the case of a merchant being unable to void a transaction is rare though? Furthermore, the refunded amount would show up as a discrepancy when compared to the DCC amount, right? I would argue that for no goods or services received that a full chargeback would be in order. Furthermore, couldn't you initiative a chargeback anyway if you intentionally screwed up the signature? (They wouldn't have your signature on file.)

I guess my question was the signature pad/POS terminal displaying HKD or GBP when you were signing? Did you know you were signing for a DCC purchase?

Well, happened for Galleries Lafayette too.

I'm not sure how prevalent. But I know a void button is not required by Visa/MC standards.

Bank will come up with lots of excuses not to do anything - exchange rate fluctuation, foreign currency conversion fee. They already do it for non-DCC refunds http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...ow.php?id=6982 . The only stick I have over them is to try and see if the regulator (in my case, HKMA) will see it any differently. But it's not slam dunk.

Well they have the signature on the credit card signature panel...?

In the case of Harrods the transaction was already finalised in HKD before I can do anything. Currency selection was made by the cashier.

If the transaction was finalized and you knew you were hit with DCC before you could sign, couldn't you theoretically sign "UNAUTHORIZED TRANSACTION"? How would the merchant respond in the case of a chargeback? I guess we're too dependent on friendly, customer-centric service in the US.

In the Harrods case they will process a refund in GBP before you can leave the store.

If you cannot do anything at the store you can protest the payment with your card issuer specifying that you did not authorize DCC. The transaction amount enters a suspense account and the protest goes to the merchant for response. merchant response vary greatly.

Even card issuer response can vary greatly. Most of the time in the US the issuers will just give you a courtesy adjustment to the account. It requires a material difference ~$5-10 before they'll even think of filing a chargeback. With a DCC markup of 3% minimum, that means you have to get hit with a transaction with DCC over $200+ US before things would probably go to a chargeback.

However, my question is whether or not the card issuer would even let the purchase go to a chargeback? In percysmith's case at Harrods, he charged £50. Let's use the current exchange rate of 630 HKD. Now, for illustrative purposes, let's say the DCC markup was 4% or about 25 HKD (about $3.25 US). He was saying that the issuer may say that the 25 HKD constitute exchange rate fluctuations. It's even more nebulous in his case because his card has a foreign exchange charge, not a foreign transaction fee which is common for US issued cards. So if the FEC is 2%, then it wouldn't be much less than the DCC charge.

If it did go to a chargeback, what bearing would Harrods having provided a refund have on the outcome, especially if you had signed an invalid signature? While Visa/MC do not require a void function, doesn't this open them up to liability in the case that you say, "I did not receive goods/services that I anticipated."?

Wouldn't it be just an authorization instead of a sales, if you do not sign?

I believe it is like what I said in the US. Once we tried to purchase something, and after swiping we saw some errors in the amount, so we didn't sign.

The authorization disappeared days later, and the cashier didn't do anything at that moment...

I suppose the question can be answered by restating the facts from Harrods "the customer was charged, had some problem with the way he was charged and refused to sign/provided crappy signature, so we refunded his money".

Then I have to go find someone to accept the refund was incomplete without being fobbed off by generic statements about exchange rates.

No, they say "amount refunded to customer"

I think with most POS at shops, charges will post unless something is done to stop it (i.e. a void).

With Harrods/GL-type POSes, everything will post. Errors will be handled by way of refund.

I think there might be a difference between US and UK on this one.

In US, the swiping does not generate sales, but authorization (this is based on my personal experience, so it is highly likely to be wrong). In the US, if I don't sign, a transaction cannot be completed, because the final and most important step of signing is not done, which doesn't give cardholder's permission to the transaction.

Likewise, in the UK, I wonder what would happen if someone insert their card, see the amount, but don't input their PIN (obviously they use Chip and PIN). Again, I think the transaction shouldn't be completed, because the cardholder does not provide the permission by not keying the PIN, right?

I don't think Harrods/GL are representative of all of UK/France.

I belive Harrods/GL POSes also seek an authorisation at first also. They just simply don't allow voids so they don't have to perform End Of Day Reconciliation - the register must equal the credit card charges.

Just as a follow-up and as we all suspected, the NTD 5500 rate was honored, and the transaction finally posted to my account at $183.07. The Visa calculator doesn't have TWD as an option to see the exchange rate, but I think Visa used 30.04 TWD = 1 USD for September 15th based on two other transactions that posted today from Watsons (my personal store ;)) and Taiwan HSR.

Had this transaction been hit with DCC the hotel would have made an easy $8.96 off of me at a markup of 4.89% compared to the rate Visa used. :td:

I had an interesting DCC experience at the doctor's office this morning.

They use 农业银行 as their acquirer, and the POS defaults to DCC (of course).

Since I had an hour to kill, I decided to attempt to solve the problem. The first call was to 农行. They explained to the receptionist and I that foreign cards get charged an extra 3.6% because that's a transaction cost. The receptionist blindly took the bait until I showed her this article:

http://flyformiles.flyday.hk/%E7%A2%...on%EF%BC%89-2/

The next call was to the POS machine company, which explained how to reject DCC (similar to other machines). We tried this, and it didn't work... then the POS remembered that 农行 altered the machines that it provides to merchants to conform with its "own standards".

A follow up call to 农行 ensued, which echoed the party line of call #1 (different manager this time).

In the end, I used a Chinese card, but told the office manager there that they'd be wise to fix this since half of their customers are foreigners, and DCC amounts to stealing from them. I doubt they really care though.

Is it 和睦家医院?

So we do have this kind of unbeatable machines, which is like actually really in violation of Visa rules?

No. It's a small chain that only has offices in Shenzhen. I'm not inclined to shame them here yet because they actually seem to be trying to do something about the issue. ABC is giving them a serious run around... including a suggestion to take it up with Visa International; I applaud their tenacity.

I would almost call it a flagrant violation of visa rules; the fact that the guy at the POS company was stumped leads me to think that an opt out actually might not exist at all (or that it's such a tightly kept secret that nobody remotely close to the front lines has a clue about it).

All the methods tried? hitting cancel, looking for a option menu, supervisor password, etc???

Man, it's a tough world out there...

Again, we had the tech support guy from the POS company on the phone for 20 minutes (actually two 10 minute calls). None of his suggested techniques worked.

Did he suggest something that are new to us (other than the cancel button trick) ? I mean, some tricks might be working on other machines~

And did you have the feeling that this tech guy know the DCC stuff?

Apart from "press the cancel button when the DCC screen pops up" (it doesn't!), he gave us 3 different 4-digit codes to enter pre-transaction. I'm not sure this guy knew or cared about DCC, but he certainly knew how to make his company's (unmodified) POS machines churn out RMB receipts.

So what you are saying is that 农行 actually have people modify the POS after they purchase those POS from a vender that already provide DCC-enabled machines?

wow...

I'm afraid so. Not only that, but they've also trained their front line staff to advise both merchants and consumers that 3.6% is a fee that they charge foreign cards in order to offset higher transaction costs (i.e. they have framed DCC like FTF).

If we have some Visa/MC inner circle guys here, this is a good one to hunt.

Other POS just have DCC that is hard to avoid, thus complying with the rules. This one is a pure violation.

Also, just went to Costa Coffee in 中关村. I've know 交行 machines don't do DCC with chip cards, but this 交行 machine with a separate wired pad and a immobile card reader base, shows "DCC Services? Y/N" once the card is inserted.

I didn't have the time to react and the cashier hit something on the base and the prompt disappeared. Interestingly, she denied DCC for me.

Probably a lot of foreign guys hanging out in 中关村 and these cashiers there know the stuff (and choose to be good ones ;))

Just noticed Amazon's technically non-compliant too.

I'm buying my brother's birthday present, which is a very boring gift card.

I have a HK-issued USD card saved with Amazon, but this year Amazon asked me what currency's the card is denominated in. Suspecting this was DCC-related I selected HKD.

Amazon defaulted to show the payment in HKD, at HK$8.05. Since we have a peg in place the real rate is readily ascertainable (7.76 for wholesale and 7.91 for credit cards after foreign currency conversion fee has been factored in), so the Amazon rate is over 3.7% the wholesale rate and 1.8% over the credit card rate.

It does provide clear disclosure HKD will be charged, however the technical non-compliance I argue happened is that the default selection is HKD instead of being USD or unselected. Someone in a hurry will click through the HKD payment.

To me, if it is grammatically clearly beatable, even if you have to be vigilant, it is OK :)

Amazon's had this program for a long time:
http://www.amazon.com/Currency-Conve...node=388305011

You should be able to select either the currency of the Amazon store (Amazon.com == USD) or "your" currency at Amazon's markup on the checkout page.

We made two purchases at Chung Yo (中友) Department Store this evening in Taichung:

http://i.imgur.com/BX9y1Fim.jpg

The earlier purchase didn't have the DCC verbiage, but the second one did. Both of these are Global Payments receipts. My spouse was the one to sign for both of these, and I clearly saw NTD on the signature slip as well for both receipts. (I didn't see any check boxes). And while I don't know more than some basic Mandarin phrases, my spouse requested to be billed in 台幣, and the cashier was aware of DCC and our preference for local currency. Of course, I got a little antsy when I logged into Chase:

NTD 3,462 (Pending charge: $114.59, Current FX rate: $114.50, 0.08% difference)
NTD 4,852 (Pending charge: $168.30, Current FX rate: $160.48, 4.87% difference)

I'm hoping we didn't get hit with DCC on the second purchase, and the NTD on the receipt leads me to believe that our request was honored. Furthermore, zyxlsy explained in post #1021 that the hold amount is usually the DCC amount. Furthermore, the transaction type says, "SALE OPT_O". Comparing this with my Novotel transaction, it also said "SALE OPT_O". I can only assume that OPT_O stands for opt out of DCC. Other than that, the DCC receipt says (Amount) whereas the earlier receipt says (Total). Perhaps I'm reading too deeply into that one though.

The reason why I even have a minute amount of anticipation is because the format of this receipt is a little bit different than any other DCC receipt I've received in Taiwan. In the case of being offered DCC, I've always received the quote slip with the check boxes and then a final receipt with the [X] next to the NTD amount. I'm hoping some of the resident experts on here could give me some assurance so I won't be anticipating the next 2-3 days while waiting for the transaction to post.

Majuki I believe you are fine. See my Hyatt DCC slip - verbage on customer copy even after I have successfully opted out and a X printed by terminal against TWD.

That's what I was looking for though but didn't see it. All over DCC experiences in Taiwan have been with the X printed by terminal next to NTD. Now, this receipt lists NTD, does not list USD, and makes no mention of an exchange rate. However, the fact that one receipt is free of DCC verbiage and the other has it worries me. How was one cashier able to disable DCC completely but another simply declined it (giving this instance the benefit of the doubt for the moment) after it was offered?

The verbiage you mentioned has printed on other receipts of mine before too, but there was a clear X next to NTD. I'll be waiting, but there won't be opportunities for me to get hit with DCC for another week since we're heading to Guam with the in-laws. While I'll watch out on their behalf while we're there, the US doesn't have too many occurrences of DCC. The only complaint I've seen on FT has been Avis, but I'll be paying for the usual suspects of hotel, rental car, etc.

Well, DCC verbiage even for non-DCC slips??? That'll bring a heart attack...

DCC at Greyhound Cafe
 

Was DCC'd in at Grayhound Cafe in TKS. This is the second time I have been DCC'd at Grayhound. The first time was at their IFC shop.

4.2% hit.

US issued Visa with no FTF. DCC verbiage and Ticked on HKD box.

I don't know how to upload a copy of my receipt. Looks like I need to upload it to a picture hosting site and then linking it here. I don't have such service.

You can use imgur for free. They'll even have a message board link that you can use to paste the image directly.

Did you get a final receipt that shows HKD? Some of the resident China experts can chime in, but I think that once you seen the tick boxes with the DCC verbiage on a receipt in HK, Macau, or Mainland China you've already been screwed.

As I said in the post above, I think once the DCC verbiage prints in places like China, it's too late. The way it works in Taiwan, Thailand, and a few other places is that you'll get a quote slip with the DCC verbiage and tick next to the local currency (DCC opt-out) or card's issued currency (DCC opt-in). The cashier will then print out a final receipt showing the [X] on your selected choice. The DCC verbiage still prints on this final receipt, but at least you have some proof of your choice being respected.

In the case where you check the box but don't get a followup receipt showing the [X] on the final customer copy you really have no way of knowing whether the cashier input your currency choice properly. From the stories on this thread and others on the topic, almost universally this kind of system results in DCC.

At least for china that's right. A slip with DCC successfully opted out should contain no verbage.

Those cases can go either way. In those case you have to ask the cashier whether s/he could make any further input, *or not*. If the cashier doesn't positively affirm an input has been made, presume DCC has occurred and try to either void and redo it or prepare for chargeback. See Maldives case in the wiki.

No final receipt as it is one if those carbon ones. Let see ify images works.

http://i.imgur.com/uw7Jtsxm.jpg

Yep, it worked. Thank you for the receipt.

A carbon copy receipt works heavily in your favor since the merchant would have the original clearly denoting your preference for HKD. It's a rock solid case for a Reason Code 76 chargeback. The conversion rate of 623 HKD is $80.38 according to Visa. It is indeed a markup of 4.2% above this rate at $83.76, meaning you were overcharged by $3.38 if the merchant hits you with DCC. I'd file a dispute, but it's unclear how your US issuer will proceed. For $3.38 they might issue a courtesy credit rather than going through with a chargeback, which is what we want.