Sorry my math messed up...

20HKD in spending getting 1HKD back is quite a lot. In US normally it's 1 USD for 100 USD spending. Periodically you have 5% cash back with some cards in some categories.

Three people and a whole lot of sake... :D but really Australia is that expensive.

Yes, the PDF of the statement makes it seem like the posting date/exchange rate is 6/9 for those six transactions, but if I look at the activities page online the posting date for all of those transactions is listed as 6/10. If I use the Visa USA exchange rate for 6/10, I'm able to reconcile the transaction down to the cent.

So the process is the same. I haven't filed a dispute in a long time, so I didn't know if things had changed.

This would be the ideal resolution, but Chase's current process doesn't allow that to happen directly. One outcome if they become too inundated with DCC refund requests is that they could add in an option of "I wasn't offered the option of paying in my local currency." However, for small DCC scalps in absolute terms - I don't know what the threshold is here - they likely issue a courtesy credit to avoid the paperwork. For something like a hotel or expensive meal where the amount is $20 or more, they'd likely like a Reason Code 76 chargeback.

This is my thought process, at least for the US. The USD amount (and category bonuses, if any) determine the rewards earned. It's probably not worth it for an issuer like Chase to file a chargeback for smaller transactions, so they just issue a courtesy credit. Furthermore, if you look at the documentation percysmith provided, I see there is a minimum amount of $25 to file a Reason Code 76 chargeback. I guess that might be the threshold amount? It seems like if you're hit with DCC at a Burger King in Ireland that your bank would have to eat the DCC difference if you complained.

Yes, in the case of a DCC chargeback it's more of the mentality of saying to the merchant, "Go back and charge this transaction in the correct (local) currency." The Reason Code 76 isn't asking for a refund of all of your money. It is a request to process the transaction without DCC.

Now it makes complete sense. For reference, here is the link to the avoided DCC attempt at the Taj Exotica Maldives. If they had charged you in HKD you would have lost nearly 6000 miles. While in the US rewards earnings don't really matter and the only loss is the DCC markup, I think the above point from percysmith needs to be emphasized and can help us win the messaging battle against DCC.

While some people don't care that they're getting ripped off on the DCC for the "convenience" of knowing the charge in the home currency, I think most people would go completely ballistic if you told them there's the possibility that if you accept DCC that you won't get any rewards for the transaction. (That's presumably why the person is using the card in the first place.)

^

Also, I would like to point out rewards in the US matter (at least to me :p, that's why I have numerous hotel cards from Chase, Marriott, RC, IHG, to get 5x in those chains), but the system just doesn't care whether home currency or foreign currencies are used. The final points are calculated with the posted USD amount, no matter who handles the conversion.

This way I don't have the double pressure like percysmith has, that you have to firstly avoid DCC, and secondly make sure done DCCs are voided and processed in local currencies again to get the points/miles. Here I just dispute DCCs with Chase and let them decide what to do, and I get points/miles nevertheless.

For un-voidable transactions, I would be happy to accept refunds in, say, euros. At the end of the day, I just dispute the difference between the DCCed USD amount, and the USD amount converted from the refunded EUR amount, and call it a day, because CSP has no FTF.

We are fortunate that we don't have the pressure like he does, but we can use this argument to our advantage in the fight against DCC. Including language that says, "Depending on the rewards structure of your credit card, sometimes you won't get any miles or points for the transaction if you accept DCC." This way it's more substantive than arguing over a couple of cents.

Our case isn't quite as severe. The only loss is the markup on the DCC with a 0% FTF card and credit of the miles and points anyway. The only loss with the chargeback would be losing whatever additional miles or points the DCC markup generated.

I just did some calculation. Yes, the rate used on the Chase statement is different from any of the dates adjacent to the posting date. But by using the visa.com rate on the posting date shown on the activities page, multiply it by the foreign currency amount, and round it to the hundredth, you get the correct USD amount charged to the card (without DCC of course).

I guess even though the rates look different, the stuff smaller than the hundredth just doesn't do anything...

I'd rather forfeit the 2 cents and keep the whole dollar :D

Yep, this was the process I was following the other day to reconcile the amounts. If you round to the nearest cent using the conversion rate for the date the transaction posted to your online activity and multiply by the foreign currency amount, you'll get an amount that matches the posted amount. It hasn't failed me yet. I just had another transaction post from Taiwan Mobile this evening (7/29 posting date). I did an online recharge of my account for 300 TWD x 0.033376 USD/TWD = 10.01 USD. The transaction posted for $10.01. ^

So at least when the unavoidable DCC transaction comes up with Chase, we can know how much we likely should have been charged.

@percysmith:

Remember your St. Regis slip? It has a term "app code" on it.

After studying non-DCC BoC slips, I think this "app" might just be the mechanism for DCC conversion, because there is no this extra line of "app code" on non-DCC slips from BoC terminals.

Interesting, huh?

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; CPU iPhone OS 7_1_2 like Mac OS X) AppleWebKit/537.51.2 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/7.0 Mobile/11D257 Safari/9537.53)

All transactions have approval codes unless you fall under a certain txn limit where the merchant chooses to forgo approval for greater speed (in HK, merchants can opt to do this for transactions <HK$200).

You need approval code once above it, whether DCC or not. That's the only way they can hold the hkd amount (in the Maldives case they have app code, they just didn't post for DCC)

On the non-DCC slips from BoC and 交行, I only see:

Invoice No (Check No)
Auth Code
Batch No
Ref No

:confused:

Also, I really do have the feeling that using chip cards on 交行 machine can avoid DCC.

At this Sheraton, the waitress said another customer tried so many times with a foreign Visa and couldn't avoid DCC (with all the means, like hitting cancel, etc.). When I swiped my CSP, the transaction was automatically DCC-free.

No DCC on this, but auth code present

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t...nSZBoCslip.jpg

Boo. HSBC HK offered to cash out the hongkongcard.com cardholder and honour the overseas spend promo with respect to the DCC amount in lieu of full chargeback.

As a full chargeback will take a couple of months (in my experience, as acquirers are allowed time to perform representment) but the HSBC overseas spend promo requires spending to be posted by end of promo period (31 August), the cardholder must accept.

I still cling to my previous theory - perform full chargeback if you can, penalise the issuer if you can't (make the issuers push for changes).

I agree with this approach and can accept a resolution where there is no loss to the consumer. I think that eventually the issuers will tire of issuing courtesy credits just like they got tired of American customers calling in to complain that their magstripe only cards weren't working or were refused overseas. They realized repeating the line, "Under the accept all cards policy the merchant is required to take your card," wasn't going to work. Fortunately we haven't gotten to the point of, "Under Visa policy, the merchant must always offer you the choice of paying in local currency." Right. :rolleyes:

In this case it was probably better to get the courtesy credit on the account because didn't the husband get snookered into accepting DCC? While the receipts weren't compliant and probably could have prevailed in a chargeback situation, it wasn't a case where the customer adamantly refused DCC but was still forced into accepting DCC. I do think issuers would rather eat the occasional costs DCC complaint than perform a full chargeback even though this means the merchant won't be punished.

Just dodged a DCC
 

Purchased some tix for a local walking tour of Quebec for a trip in a couple months. The tour operator uses PayPal services to settle bills. If you decline to use your PayPal account, you can use a credit card, which I did. I already had seen the bill racked up in Canadian dollars (CAD). But one screen before the "submit to pay" page comes up, the amount suddenly changes to US dollars. There is a link in small print for "other conversion options," so I click that, and I can select to pay in the vendor's original currency. I did that and dodged a pretty sneaky DCC attempt. On the first page, the only amount showing is the already converted US$. (No I didn't check to see how bad the rate was.)

Beware!

Most of us are well aware of PayPal, thankfully, they have one of the sneakiest and most deceptive DCC systems around.

I backed a Kickstarter in Australia with my CSP tonight and I'm happy to report that they didn't try to DCC me. ^ Normally Kickstarter sends you to Amazon Payments to complete the transaction, but I guess they only do that for US based ones. It's also good that I have a FTF free card because otherwise it'd be a surprise for not so good reasons.

EDIT: actually, the Chase emails I got after they authorized my card show the amount in USD, not AUD. I'll probably know more once the Kickstarter finishes but according to Visa's exchange rates for 8/15, AU$1 = US$0.933107 and the authorization on Chase's online banking is for $0.93 so it's probably still a good bet that I didn't.

I think things will always appear as USD to Chase. You won't see the exchange rate until you can get a PDF of the statement, but it seems like using the current day's Visa exchange rate still works. ^

I think Majuki is absolutely right on the above statement.

Another thing: although some would find this old news, I do think this is useful. We all know BoComm交行 is notorious on forced DCC, and I've seen a lot of their DCCs when using magnetic cards.

However, after using the chip of my CSP on several BoComm terminals which DCCed me before, I can confirm using chip cards automatically disable their DCC capability. Back then, we had to hit cancel on BoComm machines. But with chip cards, no DCC is default.

I feel that maybe these BoComm machines in Beijing have firmware code that doesn't apply DCC when chips are used. Based on my feeling, disabling DCC is not a functionality of the chips, but is merely done by the incompetence of the DCC program code used in these terminals.

Correct, it sounds like DCC isn't setup for EMV - there's nothing in the EMV application to disable DCC.

We have chips in HK since time immemorial...never stopped BoCxnts or Global Pxssies from DCCing us.

I was referring to that specific incident. I can't imagine they don't have DCC working on EMV at all. Maybe a US dollar thing? Who knows?

Maybe acquirer-specific. But certainly it's not a technological barrier affecting all acquirers.

Absolutely not, Ireland has no issue DCCing EMV cards, including USD ones!

I can't believe for this specific terminal with CSP, but I've had a chipped Marriott card for almost two years (and chipped CSP since earlier this year), and I've seen attempted (or forced) DCC with EMV transactions on both in Taiwan, Germany, and Australia. It's hard to say what's causing the terminal to reject DCC, but take it as a gift for now until they "fix" the terminal.

That's exactly what I am doing now.

I've tried two 交行 terminals in Beijing which have DCCed me before with magnetic cards, and both terminals gave me RMB slips (one terminal for almost ten times to prove that this is not random).

So, my information is location-specific and acquirer-specific.

I just sent Percy Smith a photo of my DCC slip that I received this evening in 蛇口. It's nothing special. but the 3.6% surcharge is loud and clear.

Which bank does the terminal belong to? What is the situation? Was it forced?

Just got back from a trip to Japan, never encountered DCC and used a combination of VISA/MC/AMEX at restaurants, stores, coffee shops, and hotels.

That's why I love Japan~

But I do think if you explore more at Duty-Free shops, you'll encounter DCC in some forms.

But overall I think Japan is very similar to Korea that everyday places don't offer such DCC thing.

Here it is - acquirer ABC Shenzhen.

Amount not yet posted.

http://www.hongkongcard.com/webedito...4457_46402.jpg

At least this one says it's gonna charge you. Did a calculation, it is around 3.6%, probably a little higher.

Just came back from Seoul. If DCC around the world is as clean as that in Seoul, we don't have the need to have this discussion about avoiding DCC at all...

http://bbs.51credit.com/forum.php?mo...ad&tid=1750187
(linked from http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=11430&p=4)

In it the (PRC) poster described six situations encountered in HK/overseas with his/her PRC Visa card:

1. No DCC in jurisdiction - the poster cited Taiwan. I think the poster is incorrect because I've certainly been offered DCC in Taiwan - a better example is probably Indonesia (where DCC does not exist by central bank regulation).

2. DCC in jurisdiction but merchant does not offer DCC.

3. DCC in jurisdiction and merchant has DCC but cashier has declined DCC on your verbal request.

4. DCC in jurisdiction, merchant has DCC and passes you an offer slip. Poster advises to scribble "TOTAL [HKD]XXX" to make the your intentions very clear.

5. DCC in jurisdiction, merchant has DCC, selects DCC and passes you a DCCed slip for signature. Poster postulates an offer slip may have been printed but not given to you (personally in my experiences going the other way I don't think an offer slip is mandatory). Merchant does the usual thing (a. claims the slip is charged in [HKD], b. claims the terminal can only charge in card currency).

6. Refunds of non-DCCed slips have been DCCed.



(5) and (6) are very weird.

(5) - A poster in the hongkongcard.com thread postulated for carbon slip, the offer slip is the slip you sign on and second slip is subsequently thrown away by merchant, thus allowing merchants to DCC and not tell the cardholder it has done so.

I replied it doesn't matter for HK-issued cards because if you ticked the local currency, signed on it and retained the carbon copy, your intentions are conclusively demonstrated. Whether a second slip is printed or not is irrelevant (BoC and ABC Guangdong certainly don't print second carbon slips). Yes you have to chargeback, but you'll have to chargeback no matter whether one or two slips are printed.

(6) is hard to imagine. I certainly had the case where I've been DCCed but was unable to void it (Harrods and Gallaries Lafayette - refund in EURs only). Going the other way is very difficult to imagine.

There is definitely DCC at every corner in Taiwan, but merchants are good about giving you the quote slip and selecting the proper choice. I always get the slip to make sure that the final signature slip is DCC free. The only case of "forced" DCC is the authorization hold at the Taoyuan Novotel. However, I think my best practice there next time will be to use my AmEx for the hold and another card when checking out. ^

Just a thought but, since so far we're getting many reports of "forced" DCC occurring in mainland China, Hong Kong, and Macau, what's the prospect of using Discover Cards (have no annual fee, has no FTFs or have a DCC policy like VISA or MC) and using it through the Union Pay network?

The caveat of course is that Discover doesn't issue EMV cards yet which is becoming a must for international travel, but they will eventually do so soon.

Isn't that giving in? :D It's like saying since we're getting so many reports of merchants refusing PIN-based transactions that we should all sign up for UNFCU credit cards.

A number of people have used Discover cards successfully with the Union Pay reciprocity agreement, but it's not an option for everyone. It's also not a preferred card in terms of the rewards program. But Discover and American Express are both great options when available to get around forced DCC when they're an option.

My thoughts exactly. The common hongkie refrain to DCC problems with hkd visa/mastercards in china is:

"Use Unionpay la"

To me there is an unbearable Quisling element about it. But then again I have an even more potent avoidance method - forced abstinence (my missus refuses to visit Mainland China short of our once/year hotpot/SPG Gold extension Mattress Run)

I have to disagree. In my view, earning better rewards at a particular establishment shouldn't be a more important factor in using a card than being DCCed.

i.e.

Card A (VISA or MC): gives you 3% in rewards at a certain restaurant in China, but likely to be auto-DCCed

Card B (Discover through Union Pay): gives you only 1% in rewards at that same restaurant but won't be subject to DCC

My view is similar to my stance with EMV: the 3% restaurant reward isn't worth the hassle arguing with a cashier, who may or may not have the authority to do it or something the terminal is auto-set to, who may or may not understand the same language as I do, with lots of irritated people behind me, so I'll just whip out a Discover Card if there's an Union Pay sign at that establishment.

More market share goes to Discover, less market share to VISA and MC. The more American visitors to China start doing this, the more VISA and MC will realize their DCC idea is hurting their business in China and it's market is being usurped away to the Discover-Union Pay-JCB alliance. Change comes through competition, I say.

My other half is from Taiwan, so she has little desire to visit the Mainland either. To date, we still haven't visited, so I haven't had the displeasure of experiencing forced DCC. We'll be back in Macau and Hong Kong in October, so I can test out a few problem spots if you'd like with my USD denominated card.