I had some experience with the other two Shanghai Hyatts http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/china...on-36.html#536 , neither went well.

Wonder which is the bank Grand Hyatt uses (Park Hyatt: BoC, Hyatt on the Bund: CCB) (as of 2011). Can you copy the merchant code ("1052900xxxxxxxx") or a photo of the slip (with personal info redacted) here?

Some reports of DCC (or lack thereof) here in the USA. I have a friend from Taiwan and a friend from China over, and the one from Taiwan used his credit card at Gamestop, and there was no DCC. The one from China used his credit card for a lemonade and a chocolate bar and was also not DCCed. Just thought I'd provide another point of view. In addition, the chocolate bar and lemonade did not warrant a receipt, probably meaning that it was processed via VEPS, which people here say that there is no DCC for. Both were Visa cards.

Sorry, but what's a VEPS?

Is the card of the guy from China a dual currency card? Which network (Visa/UnionPay) did the transaction used?

DCC in general is incredibly rare in the US. About the only places that'd actually do it is duty free shops, if that.

VEPS is Visa Easy Payment Service. DCC transactions are prohibited from using VEPS, so we were talking earlier in the thread about using contactless payments for small transactions as a way to circumvent DCC. VEPS can't use DCC because there's no receipt that you sign/PIN verify to accept the scam exchange rate. I often don't use my card for small purchases overseas due to avoiding DCC since I've found VEPS uncommon outside of the US unless you're doing a contactless payment. For example, I remember in June at a McDonald's in Sydney the cashier was frantically searching for a pen for an A$8.10 transaction (posted as US$7.59). In contrast, most fast food places in the US have VEPS enabled.

That's been my experience. The only places I've seen DCC advertised in the US are at T Galleria Guam (DFS) and some of the shops at TBIT at LAX. Since my spouse and I only have USD-denominated credit cards, we couldn't test this out. We do have her TWD-denominated Visa debit card, but she balked at being a guinea pig for my quest to find DCC in the US. :D I think I'd be searching quite awhile anyway. And I wonder if the knee jerk reaction would be to accept DCC mistakenly since I go ballistic each time I see a DCC choice with USD and am used to pushing the non-USD option? :D

The olive garden and red lobster used to do it in the US, which was very annoying as they'd have to go and void the transaction and bring another receipt. This is no longer the case anymore though.

Interesting. I wouldn't have expected it from either restaurant. I also don't know if they would use the same acquirer nationally or if this was specific to an area where many tourists were - ie) Central Florida. Although I suspect if one of them did it that the other would too since they used to have the same parent company. I was only able to find one example of a store, BrandsMart USA, with several locations in South Florida and two near Atlanta.

While searching for examples, I found this white paper from First Data which is almost laughable. The section that "answers" critics of DCC doesn't really answer anything at all. There may have been a time when DCC fees were a wash compared with currency exchange fees, but many of the premium (and regular) US cards now have a 0% FTF as a feature. Furthermore, since US cards have moved in the direction of a FTF, you'll get hit with the surcharged exchange rate in addition to your FTF. On my most recent trip to Asia, I didn't see a DCC offer below around 4%, and most were closer to 5%. Which is better 0% or 5%? Apparently we're a bunch of indignant and misinformed customers. They compared DCC as being reasonable when you look at hotel or airport currency exchanges. Finally, it's hard to say there are millions of satisfied cardholders who have made educated informed decisions. I certainly have never been offered what I consider to be a clear and conscious choice. The increasing adoption of DCC doesn't illustrate the popularity of the service as much as the spread of the infection and preying upon the naive masses when traveling abroad. :mad::mad::mad:

This seems pretty sketchy since in the US they take the card away from you to run it and don't even give you a choice whether to accept DCC. I hope someone did a chargeback because of that.

Agreed. It was the main reason I switched to Amex for all of my US (and most other countries) payments as soon as a forex free Amex was launched in the UK (Issued by Lloyds Bank, Amex themselves don't issue any fee free forex cards in the UK). It saves the hassle of DCC + Amex's USD to GBP conversion is great (usually equal or better than MC).

I do vaugely recall retailers like Toys R Us, Century 21 (In NYC), JC Penny and Macy's (Possibly) and Levis using DCC. They were all pretty easy to avoid though, the first four were done on a customer facing terminal and the Levi store used a tick box system similar to what is used in Asia. This was a couple of years ago now though.

That would make the receipt noncompliant with Visa regulations as it requires truncation of account numbers.
(as well as American legislation.)

"Millions of satisfied cardholders have made educated, informed decisions to use DCC..." sounds like Lockheed claiming to the Canucks seven U.S. allies (that is eight less UK) have made educated, informed decisions to go with the F-35...

Was this in NYC or in off the beaten path places? I can't imagine that the local Toys R Us and JCPenney in my parents' hometown would have ever encountered a non-USD card. As long as the customer facing terminal is an option it would be fine for those of us on this thread, but it's still shady.

Reclusive, how hard is it to qualify for that Lloyd's card with no local credit history? I'd much rather have it than any Amex issued card when I move in May...

I think because it is UnionPay...

[QUOTE=MajukiFor example, I remember in June at a McDonald's in Sydney the cashier was frantically searching for a pen for an A$8.10 transaction (posted as US$7.59). In contrast, most fast food places in the US have VEPS enabled.[/QUOTE]

I've been living in Australia and New Zealand for a month, this has been happening all the time :D

One interesting thing (maybe off topic), I used my Schwab Debit once at an un-manned gas station. When I chose CHK (it's a debit card, linked to my checking account, right), the transaction was denied. When I chose CRD, and entered my PIN, it worked. I was left confused...

Anyway, I now know I've got a Chip and Pin card as my last resort, albeit if this debit card is still considered Credit, I'll pay the CC surcharge (in Australia and New Zealand) and earn no points or miles... Luckily gas stations here don't charge CC surcharge, but Novotel charges 2%...

The credit card surcharge doesn't bother me as much as DCC because it's disclosed upfront. I don't like paying the surcharge, but there's really not much that you can do for a $1000-2000 hotel bill. At least with DCC there is in theory some recourse and/or ability to avoid it. The fees aren't nearly as bad as with DCC either. I forget in Australia if the surcharges can only recover the fees the establishment incurs to accept a credit card payment or if they're allowed to charge a markup.

I think CHK in Aus (this is a gas station in Aus right?) means EFTPOS. NAB and HSBC's been brainwashing me to press Cr at EFTPOS terminal with my Visa Debit cards from them and merchants have been trying to educate cardholders not to.

If you bank with Lloyds and have a good 3 or 4 months of history with them (Paying in over £1000 a month). After that you'll probably pre-approved. If you cant pay in that much you can trick their systems by moving out and back in from another account.

It's a gas station in NZ, but I think they are all the same.

So basically Visa Debit cards from the US don't qualify for CHK in AUS and NZ because it is not using EFTPOS (similar to UnionPay)? I just tried again today, my Chip and Signature and magnetic cards from US all don't work at gas stations pumps, and my Schwab Debit card only work when choosing Credit AND inputing the PIN.

This is interesting because in the US my Schwab Debit would definitely be considered check cards and merchants would run them as debit cards when PIN is inputed.

P.S. The Schwab agent just confirmed through secured messaging at Schwab.com that my card is indeed a check card, with the Chip and Pin feature. However, the technical part of why CHK wouldn't work but CRD would was left unanswered.

In Aus, Dr on a Visa Debit card will run the transaction over EFTPOS and Cr on a Visa Debit card will run the transaction over Visanet.

Thank you very much, are they a good bank to deal with given all the changes - FBAR/FATCA issues? Not looking forward to that mess but thankfully my mum is very knowledgeable about taxes and will sort that half out for me :)

1. The regional debit networks are different and the Schwab card's regional debit can't be used outside the US.

2. The Visa network is international, the PIN was required as the Schwab card allows online PIN for Visa if the terminal doesn't support signature, which that terminal obviously didn't.

Credit and Debit are bad terms really. Credit effectively means Visa, MasterCard, Amex or one of the other various signature networks and debit means one of the local domestic networks (although some Canadian and UK debit cards support US debit networks as they are partnered with NYCE Debit).

This only really occurs in a few countries like AUS,NZ and the US.

In most other countries a debit card always runs as a debit card (Either over a major card network or a domestic network), this is usually because of two reasons, either the card only runs on one of the signature networks and merchant just pays less interchange or a fixed amount on debit but the card doesn't actually process any differently to a credit card (The UK for example). Or the countries debit cards run on a domestic only network and while they may support Visa,MC or Amex they will only process over these networks outside of their domestic market (Canada or France).

I've read some articles about Aus and NZ capping credit card (or EFTPOS I'm not sure) swipe fees. Confusingly, this cost saving thing for the merchants led to CC surcharges???

So that cap should only apply for EFTPOS, right? And since credit transactions don't have the cap, merchants charge surcharges to level the field, right? Is my understanding right?

Encountered my first DCC attempt in New Zealand.

Novotel Christchurch asked me whether I want to settle in USD. I said no, and NZD charged.

I think for other hotels I always say "NZD please" preemptively, so no attempts were made before the Novotel.

Other than that, never seen DCC in the Kiwi Country. Also saw so DCC in Tahiti and Bora Bora.

Yeah, it's probably best to preemptively specify the local currency at hotels. While you might end up getting a few blank stares it's better than the alternative.

In other news, I finally convinced my spouse to let me try her TWD Visa on a local purchase at Kinokuniya (Japanese bookstore) in San Jose. This was after an unsuccessful attempt to her her to buy something at Macy's or Nordstrom. The purchase was for $10.82, but Bank of Taiwan is showing a pending transaction amount of NT$357. The Visa exchange rate shows the amount as being NT$336, so something is causing a 6.25% markup. She told me that Bank of Taiwan charges 1.5% a currency conversion fee, but we can't explain the rest. I'm thinking it might be the case like using Discover at Uniqlo in Japan where the pending transaction amount is higher than what the posted amount will be.

I'll report back after the transaction posts, but I don't think she'll be using the card in the US anymore, not even in the interest of science. :D She says we shouldn't pay an extra 1.5% if we can avoid it.

Greyhound Cafe DCC dispute reason 76
 

I wanted to give an update to this case. I received a letter from Chase saying that my case has been resolved and closed, all credits Chase issued will remain permanently on the account. They did not give a reason as to what Grayhound did or did not do.

So essentially my fight with DCC was successful. However of course I wasn't doing it to get a free meal, but rather to stop this forced DCC behavior from merchants. I have eaten at the same restaurant 3 times since I lodged the complaint, but paid with a local HKD card.

I will say that going through this process was not a cake walk, as Chase doesn't really want to deal with a charge back, and the reps do not really understand the principle behind it. I was lucky to have one that completely sided with the average customer.

This isn't related to Uniqlo, it's the same thing for every merchant I used my Discover card at in Japan (that showed a Discover sign, because I have no faith that JCB-only logo merchants actually accept Discover because in practice, they don't).

And the rates I ended up getting from Discover/JCB are way better than what I got from Visa for the same days.

I would say that's a satisfactory resolution. I know you weren't trying to get a free meal out of the situation, and I wonder what happened on the backend. Usually with a reason code 76 chargeback it wouldn't reverse the charge completely but rather rerun the transaction in the local currency.

It is frustrating with Chase that most of the reps don't know about DCC nor do they care. Thanks again for jumping through the hoops to fight this transaction.

OK, got another update. My statements online have been posted and as of now, this is what it looks like:

A charge for the HKD amount was indeed processed. However another return for the USD amount was issued. That means, I have two credits of 83.76 and and a new charge of 80.36. So it looks something like this:

DEC -83.76 - A credit after the rerun.
DEC 80.36 - rerun in merchant currency
OCT -83.76 - Upon filing of reason code 76
OCT -4.00 - rep tried to close out the dispute with the difference
SEP 83.76 - Original forced DCC charge

I'm guessing the December credit will fall off and is some weird holder of some sort.

I imagine things will reconcile eventually, but it looks like the reason code 76 chargeback happened properly. It doesn't matter for HKG:USD, but which exchange rate does the bank use in such a case? Would they use the December exchange rate or would they use the exchange rate for the date of the original transaction?

The 80.36 was the original USD equivalent on the original transaction receipt for HKD. Did that make sense? :)

Sure, but the USD:HKG rate is fixed. If you get unwillingly hit with DCC at let's say a merchant in Madrid and the reason code 76 chargeback gets resolved 3 months later would they use the USD:EUR exchange rate when the chargeback posts or would they use the exchange rate from the original date of the transaction?

Its pegged to within a certain range, but take it from me that it can fluctuate a little. I use my US based CSP here every day and the rate changes every day in small increments. Can add up to a few cents either way based on the rate.

Two days in HK, and I think DCC is kind of omnipresent here.

However, they are all very clear and easy to opt out (the ones I've encountered). Usually, the cashiers (today at 翠华 in 铜锣湾 and yesterday at Hong Kong Station MTR) would opt out for me, and I actually receive two slips at once, with one showing confirmed HKD amount. Just now at Tom Lee Causeway Bay, they asked for my currency preference after seeing the choices on the terminal. Hitting "cancel" means HKD.

My guess would be that rogue DCC terminals are always in Bars here in HK? Regular shops and restaurants seem fine.

One negative thing is that with US cards that don't have PINs, the terminals will be in the cashiers' hands when DCC appears, so some inexperienced cashiers might bring problems.

I bet with ubiquitous signing pads like the ones in the US, or PIN pads like the ones in Europe/Australia/NZ, the choices would appear right in front of the customers, which reduces the chance of wrong input.

Yeah, the MTR station almost caught me off guard. The lady at HKIA already had my card in hand when I saw the Citibank "Pay in your own currency!" sign. I quickly had to relay, "HKD, please!" I would say - and the resident expert percysmith can chime in here - that the likely DCC trap is when you have a carbon copy signature receipt. In that scenario it depends if the cashier inputs anything to denote the currency selection.

For example, they certainly didn't do anything at Greyhound Cafe. You could tick the HKD box, but that request would go off into a black hole. Pressing cancel during the transaction didn't do anything. Likewise, I almost lost it at a restaurant at Disneyland when the cashier said, "Check HKD, and it's HKD."

I would say that most places in HK respect DCC choices, but you can run into problems at restaurants and bars.

I spend quite bit of time in Mexico City these days, and on my most recent trip I began noticing signs from Santander at different shops and restaurants that read, basically, "Now, for your convenience you can pay in your own currency!"

While I don't think I ever experienced DCC paying with my Canadian chip-&-PIN card (at least, I was never actually given a choice by the POS) it seems that DCC has come to Mexico City.

I might be going to Puerto Vallarta in a couple of months, so if it's happening somewhere like Mexico City it's definitely going to be happening big time in a tourist resort area. :(

On a side note, looks like HK is more crowded compared with 10 years before. More people are running the red lights on to the coming cars, like Mainlanders...

Gives you the feeling that people here are madder...

Had a little DCCish incident at Al Molo Italian Restaurant at Harbour City today.

Before, the DCC in HK I've met are either that you are asked for currency selection before the first slip is printed (Tom Lee), or once the first slip is printed you are asked right away automatically on the terminal (lots of places like Tsui Hwa and MTR).

At Al Molo, since it's a HK$2000 bill and it's a upscale restaurant, I paid very close attention on the terminal. After information transmission (showing TX and RX on the screen), everything ceased on the terminal, and the currency selection slip is printed.

I don't have a service that I can simply upload photos, so I'll copy the text on the slip here:

Trans: Sale
Batch No: XXXXXX Ref: XXXXXX
RRN: XXXXXXXXX
AID: XXXXXXXXX
APP Code: XXXXXXXXX

FX Rate*: USD/HKD 0.1343638
Mark[x] Transation Currency
[ ] HKD 2095.00 [ ] USD 281.49

This service is offered by merchant's service provider. I have a choice of currencies including HKD. *Incl. four pt. two percent over wholesale rate.

I protested to the staff, but the staff said once I tick the box, I'll get HKD. I didn't believe him, and another staff came and keyed the transaction info into the terminal. After some keying, the terminal printed out the currency confirmation slip, showing "HKD 2095" only, and "Trans: Offline-Opt/Out".

The pending amount is identical to the DCC amount in USD.

This incident reminds me the Greyhound Cafe thing (interestingly, there is a Greyhound, not the IFC one, Cafe right in front of the Al Molo). The matter is someone has to perform a new task on the terminal, and key in the transaction details, just to be able to get back to the transaction and select the currency. I guess if the cashier forgets to do that, or doesn't know how to perform the "opt/out", the cardholder would be in trouble.

My question is: is Greyhound Cafe's terminal like this, that a new "opt/out" task has to be performed? What I saw today really resembles what you guys have described regarding Greyhound Cafe's terminal, that after swiping, nothing about DCC happens, but DCC's already happened.

I think the experience at Al Moto is like my experience at Disneyland or Francfranc, and I would say Disneyland is a closer experience between the two. Disneyland initially hit me with the carbon copy paper slip, which makes me nervous, whereas Francfranc uses the thermal slip. I don't know what it is, but it seems like thermal slip systems tend have additional options to input the correct currency. I feel with carbon copy selections that more than half of the time the selection gets tossed into a black hole.

At Greyhound Cafe - we were at the Cityplaza location in Tai Koo - there was no currency input during/after the transaction. Even with direct access to the terminal, the situation was similar and DCC was unavoidable at Coyote Bar and Grill.

It has been my experience that the DCC amount gets held in the pending transaction, but once the transaction posts the non-DCC amount will show. The only way this doesn't happen is if you can preempt DCC or disable it before running the transaction. DFS at HKIA does this. Even though there's the DCC offer, if you opt out - easy to do on the screen and no pressure - then the non-DCC amount will show as pending. At the Courtyard on Hong Kong Island the carbon copy slip doesn't even show a DCC option, so they turn it off before you see anything. (They use Bank of China HK terminals.)