We were wrong. Clear simply voids the transaction. The experienced hongkongcard.comer tried pressing clear during the pause in another purchase and the screen shows the transaction is voided at that point (no slip is printed).

The manager aped the cashier for letting the hongkongcard.comer void a transaction and in order to avoid further trouble for the cashier the hongkongcard.comer paid cash to settle his bill. There appears to be no way to avoid DCC on Global Payment Taiwan terminals now.

Was this still at Space Inn, or did the person try this at multiple locations with Global Payments terminals? While I can appreciate the environment might change quickly, it's difficult to think Global Payments completely screwed up all terminals in Taiwan in the last six weeks. I further contend that this might be another implementation of DCC on a Global Payments terminal.

As I said, I won't be able to check this for awhile, but I'll be able to report back during our next trip. I imagine the manager was going ape more over the 60 NTD purchase via a credit card than anything, and I'm surprised they allowed it. Most places I know in Taiwan would balk as such a small card purchase.

No matter we buy a pair of slippers at TWD60, or a bottled coca cola at TWD15, they take cards. They do not care about the amount as they are just the frontline staff members.

I did tried on both their terminals from Verifone acquired by Global Payments Taiwan at Space Inn and resulted the same.

I did some online research and in some Verizone manuals, the enter after the merchant slip is printed means ' Signature Verified' and the Clear or Cancel mean ' Signature not verified and transaction unsuccessful'. As when I pressed clear the transaction was voided, I see no way to opt-out from being DCC-ed.

I am earning 1 Asia Mile per HKD1.67 equivalent in TWD.
I am losing the extra points and being offered a .... rate if being DCC-ed.

Thanks for the update. I use an EasyCard for small purchases, so I never investigated using a credit card for small purchases. Is there an option on the terminal before the signature slip has been printed? Did you see this behavior on any other Global Payments terminals in Taiwan?

I understand the frustration because percysmith has explained bonus rewards for foreign spend only happen if the transaction is not HKD. It is different for US cardholders, but we still have to deal with the DCC fee.

I'm wondering if the transaction completed without cardholder verification. The signature slip is obviously non-compliant considering it already says "I have chosen not to use..." before you even selected anything. It's disgusting. :mad:

Working out a similar problem here http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=12138&p=5 #42

I don't think using the mid rate is right. As a USD cardholder in Japan you should be using the buy rate (118.18 http://www.jcb.jp/rate/usd11212014.html)

That still doesn't justify the rate...tho are they keeping 10.48% as a reserve against exchange rate fluctuation between transaction and posting?

Please let us know posting rate.
Also, is there any foreign transaction or conversion fee on your card (none right?)?

Discover It has no FTF. My question is when you're using Discover/JCB/UnionPay under the interoperability agreements then the network that takes the payment is the one doing the exchange? For instance, JCB would do the exchange if buying at Uniqlo in Japan and present to Discover in USD? And buying at McDonald's in the US using a UnionPay would have Discover converting from USD to HKD/RMB/MOP?

When loading my Bluebird off my UnionPay BEA debit card there's definitely a gap between the mid rate and the rate charged. Previously I'd assumed it was BEA taking that ~0.5% off the top but someone here said it was actually UnionPay. I checked the UnionPay site to find that it was indeed the rate they were charging, so at least when using a UnionPay card in the US it's UnionPay doing the currency exchange. (is that the correct assumption to make given what I've seen?) If I still had my UnionPay/JCB credit card I'd try that out too, but it was too much of a pain to use in the US.

Guys, how is it going with PayWave/the technology you just have to wave the card at the reader (or whatever they call it for MC/Visa) in your countries?

I've experienced PayWave a few times in SIN now (with a foreign card, despite them telling me that it only works for local cards :rolleyes: ) and given SIN, I was never DCC'ed, but I assume that it should be the same everywhere that PayWave is used, as DCC obviously isn't compatible with PayWave (unless the criminals banksters find a way somehow, I guess..) so it should be save that way? Also never seen a foreigner (using a non CHF card) that used PayWave at the airport getting scammed so far.

If one buys stuff for 300€, it's quite easy to fight over the scam (as it's worth 20€ or so) - but if it's 10€, sometimes even myself will find it troublesome to fight over the principle. So if PayWave is DCC free, this would be a great thing as I expect the technology to be used at 90%+ of the terminals rather soon? Obviously MC/Visa are pushing it, because it gets them even the small transactions, that most people used cash to pay.

Yes, UnionPay does the conversion when you use UnionPay debit cards in the US. That's why I said UnionPay is like a RMB-based multi-currency system.

DCC is generally not allowed via contactless (except in the US and some older Canadian terminals that use magstripe based contactless

http://usa.visa.com/download/merchan...n.pdf#page=504

"Visa Easy Payment Service (VEPS) Transaction Restrictions

The following Transactions which require a Transaction Receipt must not be processed as a Visa Easy Payment Service Transactions:

..
- A Transaction where Dynamic Currency Conversion is performed."

VEPS includes Paywave - see http://usa.visa.com/merchants/grow-y...ervice/faq.jsp

So, let's go 100% contactless then :D

How is contactless rolled out in your area? In SIN, it's very popular, with (I would say) 80%+ of the stores where you pay at checkout using it (obviously, dine-in restaurants where they bring the bill to your table etc. don't) - both supermarkets and (fast) food restaurants.

In Switzerland, both big supermarkt chains (Migros, Coop) have moved to contactless terminals in the last year, as well as the nationwide Kiosk chain that is controlling like 95%+ of the market. Fast food outlets have moved to it as well (not visiting much those kind of outlets, so a bit limited experience)

Germany has less credit card acceptance overall, and seems to be slower at moving towards contactless.

Malaysia, I've not seen much contactless in my last visits there this year.

How about other, "DCC prone" places, like all variations of China, Thailand, UK, Ireland, Spain, how is contactless spreading there?

Also, how is the contactless acceptance with "foreign" cards going? I've seen cases in which non-local cards wouldn't work on the contactless reader, but would work fine when chipped into (with and without DCC attempt) - and not sure if MC/VISA prefer that people generally use credit cards paying contactless, or if they would prefer DCC to always be applied, but maybe some less payments going on with CC's in general due to contactless not working?

Very few cards issued in the US support contactless. The networks tried to make a big deal about it a number of years ago, but the concept never caught on. (Too many people were scared that their credit card numbers could get stolen in public.) In fact, I have had a couple of cards where the issuer initially gave me a contactless card but didn't when I received a replacement. There are a number of merchants that support contactless payments in the US, but not many. Since DCC is uncommon here anyway, it doesn't make that much of a difference for non-USD denominated cards.

Hmm I look forward to my next suite payment on contactless. Or my next Michelin-starred restaurant bill (train wreck).

VEPS has payment limits. Quite impractical. So how many slips will I need for a suite?

We've just been discussing in HK how a certain fruit computing company gets squimish on repeat card transactions on the same card during the same day.

Well, I personally think your comment, cutting a part of my post and trying to make me sound silly is a bit off, given what I've wrote in #1368 - where I exactly state that contactless is good to avoid DCC on small bills on which one wouldn't necessary wanted to fight over half a Dollar of DCC. I know exactly that usually contactless is limited to any amount around 50€ (+/-40% or so, depending on your card) - it's not intended for larger bills, where you also get to have a look at the bill without being hurried etc. (like hotel bills)

For a bill in the hundreds or thousands, where DCC could easily be a two-digit sum in €/US$, one obviously wouldn't be declared "nuts" by the bank, as compared to a DCC'ed Burger from your favorite chain, where your bank would give you back the 15 Cents or so you got DCC'ed without batting a lid, but I value my time higher than that..

Majuki, thanks for the insight on the US market. Didn't know contactless was tried there before but never really made it through. They're massively advertising it here, and as said, both readers as well as pretty much any MC/Visa that was sent out in the last 18 months or so is now supporting it.

Visa payWave and MasterCard PayPass are available at the supermarkets, convenience stores, eateries, bakeries, cinemas in Hong Kong. You can even use that to buy ferry ticket to Macau at TurboJET.

Visa payWave, MasterCard PayPass and J/Speedy are available in Taiwan but seems it is not as widely accepted as in Singapore and Hong Kong. At least no convenience stores take that in Taiwan.

I have never seen American Express ExpressPay available in Asia but my American Express Cards issued in Hong Kong display the contactless symbol.

Sorry for missing the negative point (underline added). I was really responding to the pros in the other post (the whole bit about popularity which I highlighted in bold).

In my experience I don't think the small transaction, local-heavy type merchants get priority targeting by DCC processors (e.g. Tesco, Costa). It's the tourist-heavy big ticket locations that are targeted e.g. Harrods, DFS, hotels and car rental.

Even if I encounter it in smaller merchants in more DCC-saturated cities like Sydney and Hong Kong, I'll probably cash it if my cash rate is better than the DCC rate. In those places I can well afford to cash out the scammers - they're probably doing it to encourage cash use anyway.

MC Paypass and other variants of the RFID chip payments are usually limited to 25$/€ or less. So if the charge is higher it will print a slip to sign or prompt you to insert/swipe the card.

My German M&M MC had paypass since about 2008. I noticed that when I waved my wallet on the card reader at a gas station in the US, expecting it to charge the spg Amex express pay, but it picked up the MC paypass instead :o

In Germany I have seen the 'tap and go' on many POS in the past months:

http://eftpos.co.nz/uploads/file_upl...POS-NZ-NFC.jpg

I always try to hold my paypass card near it and to the surprise of many cashiers it works like a charm.^

Is it true that contactless can lead to people scanning your card information?

I have a EE major and I do a lot of wireless hardware stuff. My understanding is that RFIC use similar technology for the link level part, but once you get the information, you need to really have the algorithm to understand the information.

Also, I think maybe there is a difference between mag card with RF and EMV card with RF? if you use a mag reader, maybe you can read the card information out and copy the card. With EMV, just like Apple Pay, each reading is only valid once. Similarly, EMV card when read by RF will generate a one time code to the RF reader, not using the card number itself, right?

So maybe we can assume mag with RF is dangerous, and EMV with RF is not?

They can get the data, but it's pretty useless. They can get the PAN and expiration date, but that alone can't be used to make a transaction for the most part anymore.

It's a very inefficient attack compared to attacking systems, it's just not a realistic concern at all.

Contactless payment, like the Octopus I'm used to in HK or any ISO/IEC 14443 technology (Paywave, Paypass, NFC) are all public key/private key encrypted.

I'm not sure the technology is as strong, but the authentication protocols are similar to those as if you've used a chip. The only difference is you don't phsycially connect the chip to the reader, but depend on radio technologies to do the same.

I think your "mag reader" analogy will be like my old-fashioned remove garage door opener that is hard coded to a certain combination? That can easily be compromised by capturing the frequency/combination, akin to skimming a magstrip card. That would not work on contactless payment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octopus_card#Security
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO/IEC_14443
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PayPass#PayPass

My understanding is that using a magnetic reader you can easily copy a credit card issued in US, because what the reader reads is the real CC number and other permanent information, not some key codes that CPU-embedded cards provide.

And, there are numerous discussion about contactless CC being prone to RF readers from afar, and there are even wallets with the feature of blocking radio signals. That don't come without a reason, right?

So, my guess is that contactless CC without EMV is still different from contactless CC with EMV?

Can you get a get a contactless CC without EMV (or similar technology)?

The concern of course is that you can get a rogue portable reader that can obtain an online authentication whilst being pressed against our clothes.

I find the possibility a bit far fetched tho. Currently I have to press my Paywave card pretty much against the side a reader for it to read. My Octopus can be read under one layer of wallet skin but normally that skin is against my thigh.

using unionpay cards in alaska
 

Alaska is conspicuously absent from US section. Anybody have any insight?

just read some wiki, looks like any contactless credit card, even it doesn't have EMV chip, has at least a chip for the contactless transmission.

I've never received any contactless cards from Chase, and really don't see a lot of that in the US. Asia is pretty popular with that, and I saw lots of Aussies using contactless (making those markets easier for Apple Pay because of the abundance of contactless readers at merchants, right?).

Sydney transit put in Paywave/Paypass before introducing Opal a year or so ago.

Plus, wouldn't some people rather immediately notice that someone has charged their CC? (by SMS information) - and most people would notice some "weird" charges within a few days, and complain. Then, as the "robber" would obviously need to be registred somewhere to get the money from MC/Visa, it should be rather easy to pin him down, wouldn't it?

Yuropflyer: in my very limited experience I don't find paywave transactions trigger SMSes...they just aren't big enough to justify notification

However you're right that a rogue thief will have their merchant accounts cut, if chargebacks stack up.

SMS thing is more like a Chinese thing? Even though SMS from merchants are free in the US, I've never seen any bank in the US providing instant SMS notification.

Chase has instant notification through pushing, and it's like receiving a push email. It is very instant and it is very helpful to me. I can tell how many charges are there before the merchants give me the receipts.

In Europe, CC anti-fraud SMS is very popular. That one has to pay to receive a SMS is imho something unique to the US, never heard about that anywhere else.

For the curious, my Discover-in-Japan transaction has posted with a correct rate, without that 11% fee.

Not sure if universal but probably merchants that have the Discover signage on the door are really only passing the transaction through the JCB Group, even though the Discover signage is often one half of a sticker shared with Diners Club International. (As far as I know Discover does not work over the Diners Club International acceptance network in Japan?)

FYI - The Peninsula in Beijing tried to DCC me. I asked to be charged in local currency and they immediately fixed it.

It's good to know the rate posted correctly. ^ I'm vacillating on whether or not to apply for Discover card just for convenient use in China to avoid DCC.

I'm glad you were able to get out of DCC. Larger hotels in the major cities seem to be able to disable DCC, but I would say China is by far the worst offender when it comes to DCC.

You'd be surprised how good it works in China, provided you can convince them to swipe it. I got the beach design and often they are confused as to what it is. lol. Even trying to convince them in Chinese isn't easy. Best print out the little card on the discover website that explains it for you.

Plus, the discover isn't the worst card to have. The 5% rotating CB is actually quite good.

Make sure to keep all the receipts, many places will print the FULL acct number on the the receipt. Don't know why, but they do.

Someone around here was selling UnionPay logo stickers to place on the Discover card. I don't speak more than some basic Mandarin phrases, so trying to convey that there is an agreement between UnionPay and Discover (or trying to get out of DCC) might be difficult. :D

I've lived in Malaysia for 6 months and have only encountered DCC once (at KUL duty free!) - local shops, restaurants etc. never seem to offer it to me. I've been using a mixture of Visa, Mastercard and Amex cards from banks in the UK, USA and I'm always charged in Malaysian ringgit without DCC being offered.

There is no DCC with Amex (which is why I prefer it) - but with Visa and MC, in 2014, I've often gotten the "choice" of getting scammed or not. Might be a relatively recent development in Malaysia, as I don't remember DCC from earlier visits (2009 till 2013) - but then I didn't really looked that carefully back then.

But yes, whenever I encountered DCC, it was the mild version of the scam, ie I could opt-out without having any difficulty.

In China it is pretty hard to steal money with just the credit card number, unless it is a Dual Currency Card (so they can steal from the Visa/MC side).

For UnionPay only cards, you need to have the card number, expiration date, security code, full cardholder name in Chinese characters, cardholder's national ID number. Also, you need to have the control of the cellphone registered with the card to receive verification SMS...

Sometimes there are Chinese characters that the banks can't find, and substitute with special characters in the cardholder's information. Then the cardholder is screwed when entering the card information online...

Just got hit with DCC at Club Jin Mao at the Grand Hyatt Shanghai. All mad at myself because"I know better". I guess you win some and lose some.

Or, for example, if you've got a foreign passport, not a Chinese ID card. I have to use online banking and the USB thing the bank gave me to pay for things online.