Last edit by: eponymous_coward
American Express
Platinum ($450 Annual fee) http://www304.americanexpress.com/ge.../Platinum-Card
Plum Card (Business) ($250 Annual Fee) https://www.americanexpress.com/us/s...dit-cards/plum
Delta Reserve Card ($450 Annual Fee) https://www304.americanexpress.com/c...ta-credit-card
Delta Platinum Card ($195 Annual Fee) https://www304.americanexpress.com/credit-card/skymiles
Delta Gold Card ($95 Annual Fee) https://www304.americanexpress.com/c...delta-skymiles
Starwood Preferred Guest Card ($95 Annual Fee)https://www.americanexpress.com/us/c...referred-guest
Associated Credit Union Visa Platinum Preferred (no annual fee) http://www.acuonline.org/home/products/credit
Bank of America
Alaska Airlines Visa Signature cards, both personal and business ($75 Annual Fee) see the wikipost in this thread for signup links (which periodically change)
Amtrak Guests Rewards (two versions, one version with no annual fee) http://agr.amtrak.com/apply/
BankAmericard Travel Rewards (no annual fee; includes chip with online PIN as backup CVM) https://www.bankofamerica.com/credit...credit-card.go
Celebrity Cruises ($69 Annual Fee) https://www.bankofamerica.com/credit...credit-card.go
Barclays
Arrival Card ($0 Annual Fee) http://www.barclaycardarrival.com/ar...4&cellNumber=1
Arrival Plus Card ($89 Annual Fee) http://www.barclaycardarrival.com/
Carnival Cruises FunPoints ($0 Annual Fee) https://www.barclaycardus.com/apply/...2&cellNumber=2
Hawaiian Airlines ($89 Annual Fee) http://www.hawaiianairlinescard.com/
Lufthansa Miles & More Card ($79 Annual Fee, waived for certain miles & more members) https://www.barclaycardus.com/apply/...erid=BCSHP1214
Princess Cruises Card ($0 Annual Fee) https://www.barclaycardus.com/apply/...1&cellNumber=3
AAdvantage Aviator Red MasterCard ($89 Annual Fee; new applications not available)
Priceline Rewards ($0 Annual Fee)https://home.barclaycardus.com/cards...visa-card.html
Capital One --all cards http://www.capitalone.com/creditcard...ts/browse-all/ also see partner cards http://www.capitalone.com/creditcard...04_T_CCBRWPTNR
Chase
IHG Rewards Club Select ($49 fee, waived 1st yr, one free hotel night cert. yearly) https://creditcards.chase.com/credit...edit-card.aspx (previously known as Priority Club Select)
Hyatt ($75 annual fee, one free hotel night cert. yearly for category 1-4 hotels) https://creditcards.chase.com/credit...yatt-card.aspx
Marriott Rewards Premier ($85 annual fee, waived 1st yr, one free hotel night cert. yearly for category 1-5 hotels) https://creditcards.chase.com/credit...dit-cards.aspx
British Airways ($95 annual fee, 2-for-1 cert. after $30k annual spend) https://creditcards.chase.com/credit...edit-card.aspx
JP Morgan Select Visa (has both chip & signature and magnetic strip--$95 fee, waived 1st yr, has primary rental car coverage) https://creditcards.chase.com/credit...lect-card.aspx
Sapphire Preferred ($95 fee, waived 1st yr, 20% point discount on travel, 7% annual points bonus) https://creditcards.chase.com/credit...rred-card.aspx
United MileagePlus Club card ($395 annual fee, $100 statement credit, United Club membership, 2 free checked bags on UA, UA Premier Access) https://creditcards.chase.com/credit...edit-card.aspx
United MileagePlus Explorer card ($95 annual fee waived first year; 30K-55K sign-up bonus, depending on landing page offer [see UA forum for more info], free checked bag on UA, priority boarding on UA) https://creditcards.chase.com/credit...edit-card.aspx
Ink Bold Business ($95 annual fee, waived first year)
https://www.chase.com/online/busines...s/ink-bold.htm
Ink Plus Business ($95 annual fee, waived first year)
https://creditcards.chase.com/ink-bu.../ink-plus-card
Ritz-Carlton Rewards Credit Card (has both chip & signature and magnetic strip--$395 Annual fee. Has primary rental car coverage) https://creditcards.chase.com/credit...lton-card.aspx http://www.ritzcarltonrewardscard.com/home.php?pid=home
Citi
ThankYou Premier ($125 annual fee, waived 1st yr) https://www.citi.com/credit-cards/cr...er-credit-card
Prestige ($450 annual fee) https://www.citi.com/credit-cards/cr...-prestige-card
Executive AAdvantage ($450 annual fee) https://www.citi.com/credit-cards/cr...ite-mastercard
Expedia+ Voyager ($95 annual fee) https://www.citi.com/credit-cards/cr...a-plus-voyager
Hilton HHonors Reserve ($95 annual fee) https://www.citi.com/credit-cards/cr...s-reserve-card
AAdvantage Platinum MC ($95 annual fee, waived first year, retention offers may be possible subsequent years) -- as of 15 Nov 2015
Costco Anywhere Visa (no separate annual fee, requires a paid Costco Membership) https://www.citi.com/credit-cards/cr...sa-credit-card
Discover --all cards. no annual fee.
http://www.discovercard.com/credit-cards/
HSBC--several cards (But be careful--many of these cards have *very* low limits. The
Premier card, no annual fee, is a notable exception.) http://www.premiercardbenefits.com/1/2/3/
PenFed --all cards
examples:
Amex (no annual fee) https://www.penfed.org/productsandra...cards/amex.asp
Promise Visa (no annual fee) https://www.penfed.org/productsandra...romisecard.asp
Petal https://www.petalcard.com/ (Issued by WebBank, no AF, 1-1.5% cashback based on on timely payment, non-traditional approvals without credit scoring possible)
Navy Federal Credit Union --all cards
https://www.navyfederal.org/products...reditcards.php
Andrews FCU GlobeTrek Rewards Visa (No Annual Fee/Supports Chip & Pin) https://www.andrewsfcu.org/credit_ca...k_rewards.html
State Dept FCU Visa Platinum EMV Card (No Annual Fee/Supports Chip & Pin) https://www.sdfcu.org/emv-creditcards
San Francisco Fire Credit Union Platinum Visa (no annual fee) http://www.sffirecu.org/loans/credit-cards
Synchrony Bank/Cathay Pacific Signature Visa ($95 AF, no waiver, 1.5 Asia Miles per USD): https://us.cathaypacific.com/offers/credit-card/
Union Bank Graphite American Express ($99 annual fee, waived first year)
https://www.unionbank.com/personal-b...ards/index.jsp
**please check UA Fan's excellent list to see current bonus sign-up offers**
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/miles...er-thread.html
Platinum ($450 Annual fee) http://www304.americanexpress.com/ge.../Platinum-Card
Plum Card (Business) ($250 Annual Fee) https://www.americanexpress.com/us/s...dit-cards/plum
Delta Reserve Card ($450 Annual Fee) https://www304.americanexpress.com/c...ta-credit-card
Delta Platinum Card ($195 Annual Fee) https://www304.americanexpress.com/credit-card/skymiles
Delta Gold Card ($95 Annual Fee) https://www304.americanexpress.com/c...delta-skymiles
Starwood Preferred Guest Card ($95 Annual Fee)https://www.americanexpress.com/us/c...referred-guest
Associated Credit Union Visa Platinum Preferred (no annual fee) http://www.acuonline.org/home/products/credit
Bank of America
Alaska Airlines Visa Signature cards, both personal and business ($75 Annual Fee) see the wikipost in this thread for signup links (which periodically change)
Amtrak Guests Rewards (two versions, one version with no annual fee) http://agr.amtrak.com/apply/
BankAmericard Travel Rewards (no annual fee; includes chip with online PIN as backup CVM) https://www.bankofamerica.com/credit...credit-card.go
Celebrity Cruises ($69 Annual Fee) https://www.bankofamerica.com/credit...credit-card.go
Barclays
Arrival Card ($0 Annual Fee) http://www.barclaycardarrival.com/ar...4&cellNumber=1
Arrival Plus Card ($89 Annual Fee) http://www.barclaycardarrival.com/
Carnival Cruises FunPoints ($0 Annual Fee) https://www.barclaycardus.com/apply/...2&cellNumber=2
Hawaiian Airlines ($89 Annual Fee) http://www.hawaiianairlinescard.com/
Lufthansa Miles & More Card ($79 Annual Fee, waived for certain miles & more members) https://www.barclaycardus.com/apply/...erid=BCSHP1214
Princess Cruises Card ($0 Annual Fee) https://www.barclaycardus.com/apply/...1&cellNumber=3
AAdvantage Aviator Red MasterCard ($89 Annual Fee; new applications not available)
Priceline Rewards ($0 Annual Fee)https://home.barclaycardus.com/cards...visa-card.html
Capital One --all cards http://www.capitalone.com/creditcard...ts/browse-all/ also see partner cards http://www.capitalone.com/creditcard...04_T_CCBRWPTNR
Chase
IHG Rewards Club Select ($49 fee, waived 1st yr, one free hotel night cert. yearly) https://creditcards.chase.com/credit...edit-card.aspx (previously known as Priority Club Select)
Hyatt ($75 annual fee, one free hotel night cert. yearly for category 1-4 hotels) https://creditcards.chase.com/credit...yatt-card.aspx
Marriott Rewards Premier ($85 annual fee, waived 1st yr, one free hotel night cert. yearly for category 1-5 hotels) https://creditcards.chase.com/credit...dit-cards.aspx
British Airways ($95 annual fee, 2-for-1 cert. after $30k annual spend) https://creditcards.chase.com/credit...edit-card.aspx
JP Morgan Select Visa (has both chip & signature and magnetic strip--$95 fee, waived 1st yr, has primary rental car coverage) https://creditcards.chase.com/credit...lect-card.aspx
Sapphire Preferred ($95 fee, waived 1st yr, 20% point discount on travel, 7% annual points bonus) https://creditcards.chase.com/credit...rred-card.aspx
United MileagePlus Club card ($395 annual fee, $100 statement credit, United Club membership, 2 free checked bags on UA, UA Premier Access) https://creditcards.chase.com/credit...edit-card.aspx
United MileagePlus Explorer card ($95 annual fee waived first year; 30K-55K sign-up bonus, depending on landing page offer [see UA forum for more info], free checked bag on UA, priority boarding on UA) https://creditcards.chase.com/credit...edit-card.aspx
Ink Bold Business ($95 annual fee, waived first year)
https://www.chase.com/online/busines...s/ink-bold.htm
Ink Plus Business ($95 annual fee, waived first year)
https://creditcards.chase.com/ink-bu.../ink-plus-card
Ritz-Carlton Rewards Credit Card (has both chip & signature and magnetic strip--$395 Annual fee. Has primary rental car coverage) https://creditcards.chase.com/credit...lton-card.aspx http://www.ritzcarltonrewardscard.com/home.php?pid=home
Citi
ThankYou Premier ($125 annual fee, waived 1st yr) https://www.citi.com/credit-cards/cr...er-credit-card
Prestige ($450 annual fee) https://www.citi.com/credit-cards/cr...-prestige-card
Executive AAdvantage ($450 annual fee) https://www.citi.com/credit-cards/cr...ite-mastercard
Expedia+ Voyager ($95 annual fee) https://www.citi.com/credit-cards/cr...a-plus-voyager
Hilton HHonors Reserve ($95 annual fee) https://www.citi.com/credit-cards/cr...s-reserve-card
AAdvantage Platinum MC ($95 annual fee, waived first year, retention offers may be possible subsequent years) -- as of 15 Nov 2015
Costco Anywhere Visa (no separate annual fee, requires a paid Costco Membership) https://www.citi.com/credit-cards/cr...sa-credit-card
Discover --all cards. no annual fee.
http://www.discovercard.com/credit-cards/
HSBC--several cards (But be careful--many of these cards have *very* low limits. The
Premier card, no annual fee, is a notable exception.) http://www.premiercardbenefits.com/1/2/3/
PenFed --all cards
examples:
Amex (no annual fee) https://www.penfed.org/productsandra...cards/amex.asp
Promise Visa (no annual fee) https://www.penfed.org/productsandra...romisecard.asp
Petal https://www.petalcard.com/ (Issued by WebBank, no AF, 1-1.5% cashback based on on timely payment, non-traditional approvals without credit scoring possible)
Navy Federal Credit Union --all cards
https://www.navyfederal.org/products...reditcards.php
Andrews FCU GlobeTrek Rewards Visa (No Annual Fee/Supports Chip & Pin) https://www.andrewsfcu.org/credit_ca...k_rewards.html
State Dept FCU Visa Platinum EMV Card (No Annual Fee/Supports Chip & Pin) https://www.sdfcu.org/emv-creditcards
San Francisco Fire Credit Union Platinum Visa (no annual fee) http://www.sffirecu.org/loans/credit-cards
Synchrony Bank/Cathay Pacific Signature Visa ($95 AF, no waiver, 1.5 Asia Miles per USD): https://us.cathaypacific.com/offers/credit-card/
Union Bank Graphite American Express ($99 annual fee, waived first year)
https://www.unionbank.com/personal-b...ards/index.jsp
**please check UA Fan's excellent list to see current bonus sign-up offers**
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/miles...er-thread.html
USA Cards with no Foreign Transaction Fees
#406
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: HaMerkaz/Exit 145
Programs: UA, LY, BA, AA
Posts: 13,167
Cards that have no annual fee, cards that have rewards, cards that offer protection benefits, cards with EMV, etc. As well as many cards that combine multiple things from that list.
Last edited by joshwex90; Dec 30, 2014 at 11:21 am
#407
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Rio de Janeiro, BRAZIL
Programs: AA 4MM EXP; Starwood Lifetime Plt
Posts: 2,498
#408
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Long Island, NY
Programs: Marriott Titanium Elite/Lifetime Titanium, Delta Platinum Medallion, Hertz #1 Gold
Posts: 725
http://helpcenter.capitalone360.com/...ory=C3BNKEOBAS
Foreign Transaction. When using your Card(s) for transactions made in foreign currency or for what MasterCard classifies as a cross-border transaction, a charge may be applied by MasterCard (if its in a foreign currency, this will be based on the amount after its converted to U.S. Dollars by MasterCard). Please remember to notify us if you are travelling overseas Opens a new window.
#409
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 54
Why are those the most popular options? They may be well known devit cards, but there are certainly better credit cards out there with no FTF (as evidenced by the Wiki).
Cards that have no annual fee, cards that have rewards, cards that offer protection benefits, cards with EMV, etc. As well as many cards that combine multiple things from that list.
Cards that have no annual fee, cards that have rewards, cards that offer protection benefits, cards with EMV, etc. As well as many cards that combine multiple things from that list.
#410
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: HaMerkaz/Exit 145
Programs: UA, LY, BA, AA
Posts: 13,167
If looking for good debit cards for use overseas, I recommend checking: Debit cards without forex fees and other-bank ATM fees?
#411
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 622
Best no annual fee, no foreign transaction card?
Curious as to what you all use in this situation? I am not a "single brand loyal" person when it comes to travel - I don't do enough business with one entity to make it worth my while to pay an annual fee - I tend to rotate amoung cards with an annual fee waived, but, I do do a fair amount of international travel and wanted to know what is the best no annuall fee no foreign transfaction fee card?
The only one that I have that fits this is my first ever credit card - discovercard that I got back in college in 1998. The rewards are just "eh" with it.
The only one that I have that fits this is my first ever credit card - discovercard that I got back in college in 1998. The rewards are just "eh" with it.
#412
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: home = LAX
Posts: 25,954
Have you considered a "net negative" annual fee card? Ie, isn't a negative annual fee even better than a zero annual fee?
What I mean by a "net negative" annual fee card is one that gives you more in benefits value each year than the annual fee.
The obvious examples are the hotel cards from Chase. For example, the IHG Club Rewards MC has no annual fee the first year, then it has $49 annual fee in subsequent years, but each year you're charged an annual fee you get an uncapped free night certficate. Presumably you need at least one hotel night a year that would cost more than $49 (including taxes)? @:-) (And if it costs much more than $49, you've saved a ton by paying just $49 for that hotel room by paying $49 for that annual fee.)
Marriott has a card that works simliarly except the annual fee is $85 and the free hotel night is capped at category 5. Still, if you're not trying only for "aspirational" hotels, you should be able to make this work too, as $85 (including taxes) is still fairly low in many places, and many places have at least one category 5 or lower Marriott hotel available.
Hyatt also has a card that works similarly, but I'm not familiar with the details. (And Hyatt as a hotel program has a much smaller "footprint" than either IHG or Marriott.)
Each of these cards obviously earns hotel points in its own program. And in case you don't need hotel points, they convert to airline miles (though it's a much better value to use them for hotels).
... The other solution, in case you still don't like paying an annual fee even when it gets you more than that in return value, is to simply make sure you apply for a 0% forex card with waived first year annual fee at least once every 11 months or so, and keep it for at least 11 months, and then you'll have a different 0% forex card each year but you'll have at least one. It's Chase that has the widest variety of points-earning 0% forex cards, and many of them have first year annual fee waived, so for simplicity that could translate to getting a Chase 0% forex card at least once every 11 months or so, and keeeping it for at least 11 months.
What I mean by a "net negative" annual fee card is one that gives you more in benefits value each year than the annual fee.
The obvious examples are the hotel cards from Chase. For example, the IHG Club Rewards MC has no annual fee the first year, then it has $49 annual fee in subsequent years, but each year you're charged an annual fee you get an uncapped free night certficate. Presumably you need at least one hotel night a year that would cost more than $49 (including taxes)? @:-) (And if it costs much more than $49, you've saved a ton by paying just $49 for that hotel room by paying $49 for that annual fee.)
Marriott has a card that works simliarly except the annual fee is $85 and the free hotel night is capped at category 5. Still, if you're not trying only for "aspirational" hotels, you should be able to make this work too, as $85 (including taxes) is still fairly low in many places, and many places have at least one category 5 or lower Marriott hotel available.
Hyatt also has a card that works similarly, but I'm not familiar with the details. (And Hyatt as a hotel program has a much smaller "footprint" than either IHG or Marriott.)
Each of these cards obviously earns hotel points in its own program. And in case you don't need hotel points, they convert to airline miles (though it's a much better value to use them for hotels).
... The other solution, in case you still don't like paying an annual fee even when it gets you more than that in return value, is to simply make sure you apply for a 0% forex card with waived first year annual fee at least once every 11 months or so, and keep it for at least 11 months, and then you'll have a different 0% forex card each year but you'll have at least one. It's Chase that has the widest variety of points-earning 0% forex cards, and many of them have first year annual fee waived, so for simplicity that could translate to getting a Chase 0% forex card at least once every 11 months or so, and keeeping it for at least 11 months.
#413
Flyertalk Posting Legend Moderator: Credit Card Programs, American Express, Capital One, Chase, Citi, Diners Club, Signatures.
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Miami, Mpls & London
Programs: AA & Marriott Perpetual Platinum; DL & HH Gold
Posts: 49,061
Moderator action
#414
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Portland, OR, USA
Programs: Delta + United Airmiles
Posts: 703
Actual thread title is always a useful detail.
Last edited by uds0; Dec 31, 2014 at 4:22 pm
#415
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Portland, OR, USA
Programs: Delta + United Airmiles
Posts: 703
Best no annual fee, no foreign transaction card?
Define "best".
Capital One has many with no annual fee and some with no annual fee 1st year, although no Chip, Barclay has a no fee and no fee 1st year, BofA Travel Rewards has chip and signature and no annual.
Here's a current live list of no FTF and 0 to about 100 annual fee choices:
http://www.cardhub.com/credit-cards/...1c1:p2:v082101
Curious as to what you all use in this situation? I am not a "single brand loyal" person when it comes to travel - I don't do enough business with one entity to make it worth my while to pay an annual fee - I tend to rotate amoung cards with an annual fee waived, but, I do do a fair amount of international travel and wanted to know what is the best no annuall fee no foreign transfaction fee card?
The only one that I have that fits this is my first ever credit card - discovercard that I got back in college in 1998. The rewards are just "eh" with it.
The only one that I have that fits this is my first ever credit card - discovercard that I got back in college in 1998. The rewards are just "eh" with it.
Capital One has many with no annual fee and some with no annual fee 1st year, although no Chip, Barclay has a no fee and no fee 1st year, BofA Travel Rewards has chip and signature and no annual.
Here's a current live list of no FTF and 0 to about 100 annual fee choices:
http://www.cardhub.com/credit-cards/...1c1:p2:v082101
#416
Flyertalk Posting Legend Moderator: Credit Card Programs, American Express, Capital One, Chase, Citi, Diners Club, Signatures.
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Miami, Mpls & London
Programs: AA & Marriott Perpetual Platinum; DL & HH Gold
Posts: 49,061
#417
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Portland, OR, USA
Programs: Delta + United Airmiles
Posts: 703
Thanks for that clarification. My read was that you were moving/appending his post in this thread to a different thread. Sorry!
#418
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 54
They still may charge the 1% Fee:
http://helpcenter.capitalone360.com/...ory=C3BNKEOBAS
Foreign Transaction. When using your Card(s) for transactions made in foreign currency or for what MasterCard classifies as a cross-border transaction, a charge may be applied by MasterCard (if its in a foreign currency, this will be based on the amount after its converted to U.S. Dollars by MasterCard). Please remember to notify us if you are travelling overseas Opens a new window.
http://helpcenter.capitalone360.com/...ory=C3BNKEOBAS
Foreign Transaction. When using your Card(s) for transactions made in foreign currency or for what MasterCard classifies as a cross-border transaction, a charge may be applied by MasterCard (if its in a foreign currency, this will be based on the amount after its converted to U.S. Dollars by MasterCard). Please remember to notify us if you are travelling overseas Opens a new window.
Transactions made with your Card in foreign currencies and transactions that are classified by MasterCard as "cross-border transactions" (generally, transactions that are processed outside the United States) are called "foreign transactions." If a foreign transaction is in a foreign currency, it will be posted to your account in U.S. Dollars. The exchange rate between the foreign currency and U.S. Dollars is a rate selected by MasterCard. Basically, here's how MasterCard calculates the exchange rate: they usually start with either a government-mandated currency rate or a wholesale rate as of the day your foreign transaction is processed (i.e., not the date you made your purchase and not the date your purchase is posted on your statement). Once they have that rate, they add their own adjustment factor to it.
I guess the fee is the so called "adjustment factor"?
#419
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Portland, OR, USA
Programs: Delta + United Airmiles
Posts: 703
https://home.capitalone360.com/terms...ngs-Disclosure
Transactions made with your Card in foreign currencies and transactions that are classified by MasterCard as "cross-border transactions" (generally, transactions that are processed outside the United States) are called "foreign transactions." If a foreign transaction is in a foreign currency, it will be posted to your account in U.S. Dollars. The exchange rate between the foreign currency and U.S. Dollars is a rate selected by MasterCard. Basically, here's how MasterCard calculates the exchange rate: they usually start with either a government-mandated currency rate or a wholesale rate as of the day your foreign transaction is processed (i.e., not the date you made your purchase and not the date your purchase is posted on your statement). Once they have that rate, they add their own adjustment factor to it.
I guess the fee is the so called "adjustment factor"?
Transactions made with your Card in foreign currencies and transactions that are classified by MasterCard as "cross-border transactions" (generally, transactions that are processed outside the United States) are called "foreign transactions." If a foreign transaction is in a foreign currency, it will be posted to your account in U.S. Dollars. The exchange rate between the foreign currency and U.S. Dollars is a rate selected by MasterCard. Basically, here's how MasterCard calculates the exchange rate: they usually start with either a government-mandated currency rate or a wholesale rate as of the day your foreign transaction is processed (i.e., not the date you made your purchase and not the date your purchase is posted on your statement). Once they have that rate, they add their own adjustment factor to it.
I guess the fee is the so called "adjustment factor"?
#420
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Long Island, NY
Programs: Marriott Titanium Elite/Lifetime Titanium, Delta Platinum Medallion, Hertz #1 Gold
Posts: 725
This is a typical example of the kind of crap that is in a lot of "agreements" that makes it impossible to predict what is real (by issuer design) - thus the absolute need for card holders to report any add-on fees to the actual purchase price, including exchange rate compared to best effort "typical" rate at the time. Thus, resurfacing assertions that "if it ain't disclosed it doesn't exist" need to consider this common practice.