doc,

It is crystal clear that you have no interest in a logical and civil debate. But, being as stubborn as I am, I will try ONE more time.

If you do not care about anyone's post count, why start two threads about post counts?

---

Oh yeah, CameraGuy, [/b]"crystal clear!"[/b] for sure! I'm so very illogical and uncivil, eh?

In all the time that you have posted here on FT, I can honestly say that you have been impeccably logical, and civil, while I have surely demonstrated a total lack of such!

Bless you!

You have apparently undertaken, of your own accord, for whatever reason(s), an incessant, disheartening, scathing, pernicious crusade against me, (and perhaps a few others), from the time that you first came to post here on FT, as any objective review of your posts will indicate to all but the most biased of observers!

CameraGuy, let's just say, at long last, as I've suggested several times before, that we are simply "different," and that you and I do not agree, nor are we ever likely to.

Have I ever made a post that you did not object to? Have you ever agreed with me on anything? Needless to say these are rhetorical questions! But it's okay! Differences are part of what makes FT so great, IMHO.

I do agree with you that you are extremely stubborn, however. Yet admittedly, I am too! So we do have something in common!

Regarding your not so new, not so original, post count question, about which you appear to be very much obsessed, much in the same way that you seemingly were about my allegedly not flying NWA in years (which you somehow decided, even though I was a NWA WP Gold Elite at the time, and even though I also was a Silver the following year as well, as were my entire family, BTW! ). Perhaps if you actually read the threads, and truly thought about it for a moment, rather than constantly complaing, and looking for a fight, it would be self evident!

FWIW, again, I started a thread to suggest that we perhaps drop post counts or alter them, as I'd said!

I started another thread because the first thread was hijacked, as I'd said.

I do not favor post counts for many reasons as I've noted before, one of the primary ones being folks like you, and issue(s) like this, that are unnecessary distractions from the FT boards purpose, namely, miles, points and travel talk!

Try to understand, please, that FT is not about you, or me, or any other individual, but rather about the common good.

MatthewClement recently put it so very nicely:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum95/HTML/002244.html

Why not try to channel your energy into more constructive contributions?

Alternatively, are you angling for some more time away?

Have a great weekend all!

doc, This is just not true. There are plenty of threads/posts that you make that I object to. I do not post a reply to over 90% of those threads/posts.

If I was on a "Crusade", wouldn't I be posting a reply to all of the threads/posts that I object to?

Agreed, but I am trying to engage in a civil and logical debate here. If you are not interested in such, please just say so. I have a number of good friends who are not on the same plane as me politically. We engage in some very spririted debates. If we agreed, there would be no basis for a debate.

See Above

I think you are mistaking me for someone else. I questioned whether you flew CO. As for the Post Count Question, it still remains unanswered.

Fine and dandy, but by your own admission, this is a suggestion. Why post it here in Comunnity, when we have a Suggestions Forum?

If you don't like the distractions, why start a non-travel, non-miles, non-points related thread?

I fully understand this.

I am trying to be constructive. You replied to comments of mine that were not even addressed to you. You also did this in the 20K thread. Your replies in both of those threads where, IMHO, an attack on me. Is that constructive?

Rather than attack back, I have tried to engage in a civil and logical debate.

I have no idea what you are talking about here. Is this is some form of a threat?

As I have said before, I am trying to engage in a civil and logical debate. Last I heard, neither one of those was in violation of the TOS.

If you are not interested in a civil and logical debate, please just say so. I would then be more than happy to leave this thread alone.

Please note that I am refering to this thread. I reserve the right to try to engage in civil and logical debates on future topics.

Edited for a UBB error that made the post difficult to follow.


[This message has been edited by CameraGuy (edited 07-26-2002).]

Dear doc -- Please give credit where it's due: it was not CameraGuy who questioned your NW flying record. It was MJW, a representative of NW, who posted the following in this thread:

Have a great weekend!

---


I see you that you apparently decided not to take the earlier advice to take more time to read, and to think, nor to channel your efforts more positively!

Well, perhaps I may simply quote Gaucho with whom I'm inclined to agree, for obvious reasons!

---

It is clear from your past posts that your definition of "logic" and of "civility" as well as many other terms, are so incredibly divergent from mine, that it would, sadly, necessarily preclude any further intelligent discussion, IMHO.

Nontheless, I will address one point you raised, as it directly addresses your credibility, or in this case rather, your lack of credibility!

You stated that you never said that I did not fly NWA, yet...

Here is just one, but not the only case where you absolutely did categorically say that I had not flown NWA. Others also include, but are not limited to, email exchanges that we had, both before and after this post of yours:

http://www.flyertalk.com/pasttalk/ft...ML/003707.html


Additionally, as is so often the case, please note that you presumed to speak not just for yourself, but for "most." I have not shared the content of your emails to me here for obvious reasons! In one, however, you'll recall that you shared your feelings about US Air in order to make an analogy. I imagine this might help jostle your memory, and if not, you can look it up, if interested! I have also heard, second hand, about many of your verbal comments concerning me from others - yet I do not count that of course! Perhaps you have made so darn many criticims of me over these years that you have actually lost tract!


---

---


Eugene- Thanks so very much for trying to help out CameraGuy here! Yet, in your haste, or perhaps even with malicious intent, you have accidentally, or perhaps purposely, missed two critically important points here.

The first is that CameraGuy did in fact state this and apparently, he simply forgot, as I just noted above. You too must have just missed it!

The second point is that there is a huge difference, as I'm sure an intelligent gentleman like yourself well knows, between not flying an airline, and not flying them as a specific level elite of said carrier such as Silver, Gold or Platinum, or a regular member. The important part here is "...at all as a Gold Elite member." And that too is not nearly so simple as was unfortunately portrayed here, since I should have been credited as a Gold!

There were also several issues ongoing around the time with NWA, which I was then still flying, albeit minimally. Some of them some of which were posted here:

http://www.flyertalk.com/pasttalk/ft...ML/000716.html

And moreover, MJW, who tried to aid me and many others, and whom I like a great deal, very much to her credit, made a point of commenting further in a very classy, apologetic vein after:

"...There were some individuals who wore me out a bit with their constant bashing of NWA... and I admit that I have made comments to that effect in the past. Looking back, that was probably not very professional and I wish I had bitten my tongue..."

http://www.flyertalk.com/pasttalk/ft...ML/001512.html

Yet all of this is irrelevant. He said he did not say it, but in fact he did, and we had discussed it many times.

So while I wish I could give him some credit here as you suggest, I can't! And I wish I could give you some credit as well. But, again, sadly, not in this particular case!

Have a great weekend everyone!

[This message has been edited by doc (edited 07-26-2002).]

Well folks, we ALL know what they say about statistics. By my Math that means Camera Guy has agreed he has not flamed or baited Doc for 29,502 of his posts. That sounds pretty civil to me. And on the surface no crusade of harrassment at all one would think.

(Hang on .. doesn't that mean Camera Guy DOES admit to the less than friendly responses to Doc is about 3288 posts??? i.e. about 10% of Doc's posts. That is not a record I'd be too proud to be admitting I guess, but I never typed it after all.)

But if Camera Guy has only 678 posts, he is fibbing surely? Or statistics lie. And we all know that they say about statistics.

How can you flame someone 3,288 times in only 678 posts? Oh I see, yes, about 5 times per post. Did it make either of them any miles and points in the process is what I am quielty asking myself here.

I can see the mathemetical logic there. Sort of, but I was never good at Math. And did I mention, you know what they say about statistics?

Off to the United boards now to pick up some tips to make me some miles. I am so outta here. Will the last one out of the sandbox please close the door.


------------------
~ Glen ~

I am done with this debate.

doc,

Please do not twist my words. You claimed I had stated that you had not flown NW in YEARS. You then found a thread where I stated SOME TIME. By the time I had posted that it was PUBLIC knowledge that you were not flying NW any more.

Oops

[This message has been edited by CameraGuy (edited 07-26-2002).]

---

CameraGuy- "Twisting" your words!
PLEASE be serious! You claimed it was not you! You claimed you hadn't said anything about NWA! I simply posted one case where you actually did. I quoted it verbatim, and provided the reference. You don't want me to post every single criticsm that you ever made of me on FT, and via personal email, do you?

Are you now denying your rather considerable history of past persistent personal attacks on me and others, which are an open matter on the public record?

FWIW, would you ever consider accepting that it was possibly not public knowledge at all, but rather a mistaken impression that you may have held? It was public knowledge that I had truly been highly critical of NWA and WP, and that it actually promted me to register and ultimately post on FT at all.

The post you made was on 11/17/00, and I'd taken 'em enough to retain at least a NWA WP Silver Elite level 'til '01! Your point, among others, was seemingly that I was constantly bashing 'em, and yet not even flying them. Again, kindly read the posts and review your own email files. Give it some thought, as a favor to me please, if you would!

As wonderful as it might be to be omniscient, would you kindly accept that you, like I, do not know all, and that you do not speak for "most" FT'ers?

Can't you kindly just accept that you were possibly incorrect? Geez, I make mistakes. We all do! Even Randy!

BTW, this year I haven't bought a single NWA ticket, so now ya' can possibly say it, if you should still want too!

Most importantly, your idea of dropping the debate, as I too had earlier urged, is an excellent one, and I absolutely concur, in the best interests of all!

FWIW, IMHO, we are at odds, and at each others throat, because you decided to be.
Whenever you are truly ready to put the past and the harassment behind us, please just let me know, so that we can apologize, shake, and be friends for life!

Alternatively, if you like, we can simply stay out of each others way as much as is humanly possible. Your choice!

In any case, be well, travel safely, and enjoy a great weekend!

All the best,

Mark

What??? Oh well, whatever... Dear doc, in your disdain for CameraGuy you seem to be on the pass of self-destruction. As I have no desire to accompany you on that road, I think I'll follow Glen's example, so I'm also soooooo outta here!

I've never participated in flame wars, and I am not going to start now, even if provoked.

I wish someone would e-mail this thread to Randy and get it put out of its misery already. I'd do it myself, but my e-mail server is down all day.

CameraGuy-- you are once again completely out of line. Its clear you have not changed your ways, and continue to harass Doc and others (myself included) for no other reason that this huge amount biterness you carry.

Just so we all remember your record, you are a FTer that was banned for life for your actions. Your recent behaviour proves that allowing you to return was a grave mistake. As has been posted above, I hope this thread is passed on to those responsible for keeping this clean and warranted action is take.

------------------
"I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own."

In that Tango, there was a dance partner, whose nose has hardly remained unsoiled since reinstatement.

However before asking for a full reckoning, remember what they say about being careful about what you wish for.

However I must apologize to you Gaucho.

I confess that had you all wrong. To see you demanding that someone keep things clean is refreshing, especially after witnessing some of your Flyertalk Chats, especially with a member of the "banned for life" club.

And to think that all this time when you were calling people "Puritans" whenever someone asked for a little civility, that you were using it as a term of endearment!

Welcome to the Puritans club. You'll receive your Elite creditials shortly.

------------------
"I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own."

One would think that those in glass houses would be a little more reluctant to be throwing stones.

Sounds like CameraGuy should change the number from 90% to 99%. Hmmmm. That would suggest he is showing MORE tolerance...

OHHHHHHHH. I get it now!

As the lion shall lay with the lamb, apparently you are telling CameraGuy he is being too hard on himself!

Wow, this is great to see!

Kudos to you Oz! It is great to see that you are not continuing old animousities between you two.

What an amazing few days. I always thought there was an Oz + Doc vs. CameraGuy sort of alliance thing.

But on Friday, Doc agreed that you were over the line, and here you are telling CameraGuy that he has not argued with Doc even as much as CameraGuy thought.

I hope this doesn't mean that there is going to be flame wars between you and Doc now.

------------------
"I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own."

Mr. Toner--- you got it all wrong dude, you guys are the puritans... Im on the other side of the fence. But not being a puritan doesnt mean I have to accept and condone all the actions of you and your buddies....

It would be great to see you judge me and my posts the exact same way (and with the exact same parameters) that you defend those in 'your camp'... its clear things would be very different if you did. But of course, I guess you are above all double standards...