two things strike me (even before Randy's second comment, which only reinforces):

First, Randy is a generous spirit, and I have to admit I would like to have a bit more of that. I respect his opinion and attitude even if I don't agree.

Second, I do have to agree the 'apology' is just more of the same from Oz. I made a promise to avoid the personal, but I think it is reasonable to say (without comment on Oz as a person) that his comments did not consitute apology or contrition, rather and shift in approach that then criticisizes others for the same transgressions he has just sworn off and while calling for an end to 'flaming' proceeds almost instantaneously into that flaming.

I don't agree with the genuinely held sentiment that Oz's postings have been valuable. I do agree that we can try just to ignore him (though given his prolific posting and high-volume style that is hard) though I truly believe he ought to leave of his own volition, because censorship is always a bad idea and the only way out is for him to voluntariliy go. I don't see that happening unfortunately. He just isn't a fair person. He has whatever standard d'jour he wants, expects others to agree with him, changes, ignores, does whatever, all while attacking others for the same. In a real-life situation he would be shunned and shamed into leaving the group. In an e-world those pressures don't really come to bear.

I must admit the greatest puzzle to me is the statements of people who's opinion seems reliable that Oz is nice in person. I just can't integrate the idea with what I see here...It just boggles me "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain."

Excuse my naivety, but me thinks the jist of QL's post(s) was not to infer that ozstamps was anyone but to raise the specter that ozstamps could be anyone. How are we to know?


[This message has been edited by geo1004 (edited 12-13-2000).]

Getting 30+ daily doses of Ozstamps' (and his countless personalities') BS for the past six months is bad enough, but what I simply do not understand is how anyone can ever misconstrue what has been happening on these boards. I have concluded that Ozstamps does not belong in this community IMHO PERIOD.

For those that have really followed what is going on (and I realize that not everyone has read every Oz thread like I have) AND still support him because he helped them get a few thousand Hilton HHonors points, then all I can say is that these individuals have their priorities in the wrong place and that is really sad. Heck, if they want some extra points, then can have mine, but at least understand the story first.

If Ozstamps' infractions go unchecked, then real contributors will just leave FT for good. Personally, as a newly minted United Airlines 1K member, I would be very disappointed if PremEx, who has been the subject of personal attack from janejet, Ozstamps, and other Ozstamps aliases, decided that he had enough and left FT. And I am sure that the real beneficiaries of this community site (those who seek real knowledge and insight and not a few quick hotel points) will also be affected by such a loss.

For the record, I've met PremEx for a total of 5 seconds once and I have never met Ozstamps (although I have been the beneficiary of unsolicited emails from his Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde persona). However, I consider myself a fair judge of character. I am supporting PremEx, onefreeman, et al based on their personal track record on FT. I believe that this post represents my most negative commentary on Ozstamps to date. In the past, I deleted such posts before pressing the submit button, because I didn't want to be unfair. I wanted to afford Oz the same level of respect that I would want in such a situation, especially as some of his private e-mails seemed to indicate that he would "fess up" as he put it. However, as forgiving a person that I may be, I cannot forgive anyone who has committed real offenses and then still refuses to offer a sincere honest humble apology.

Spider, this Oz post was supposed to be an apology. Instead, he uses it to attack QuietLion and deny any wrongdoing, as he has always done in past confrontations (the only difference is that in the past, the community thought his behavior was more of a fluke than a real consistent pattern of abuse). He has no right to make any demands, and I do not think that QuietLion needs to dignify his query.

Simply put, the title of this thread should have been I'm sorry and please forgive me, not some bait-and-switch attack. Yes, it is difficult to admit that one is wrong, but when you are guilty, that is what you do!

Do you have a link to that post coz I really don't know what it was about. Thanks.

With apologies to Al Gore:

If it's one individual = one vote, then here is mine. . . .

Ozzie was dishonest. He fessed up. You cna debate how sorry he is, but nevertheless, he fessed up with some degree of contrition.

For that reason, I am fully prepared to LET IT GO. Oz, your slate is clean with me.

Randy exercises much restraint. His self control is rivaled perhaps only by Punki. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif Yet when he posted something he was sort of flamed. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/confused.gif

Randy, it seems pathetic to say that you are welcome at your own house, but it seems like it needs to be said. So welcome Randy. Please post anytime. If you post as an FT guru, GREAT! I appreciate you sharing your hard won wisdom with me. If you post as an individual with an opinion on something, GREAT! I respect you and therefore your opinion.
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Two additional thoughts:

1. We may all see each other at Catman's in NYC. So let's behave in ways that will make us look forward to seeing each other! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

2. On a postie by my monitor, I now have a WWPD? (What Would Punki Do?) Maybe that is a decent standard for all of us. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

If you want to flame me, please do so by private email. I don't want to contribute to more fire on these board. My email address is in my profile and it includes my entire legal name. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

-levi

It might be helpful if someone could post links to all of the Oz/Jane/MolsonMiler threads (from United, FT Community, Omni and perhaps other fora), most of which are now buried, so that the uneducated who might stumble on to this thread can get a flavor for what has transpired.

MRKEY - - I read your original post. Why not elaborate, out of fairness to the rest of us?

What have you owned up to? I may have missed something but I haven't seen you own up to any other handles!

I wish you would post this under 'Flyertalk Community' as QL had originally done. You are NOT "The Buzz". You think the FT world revolves around you?

I agree with PremEx on many things he has said here and value his comments and tips much more than yours for too many reasons to even start posting. I am glad to see that you have scaled down your posts. If only you could do the same with your attacks and keep them under the community thread, FT would be a better place. A simple apology would have done it!

cactuspete- I deleted the post because I really was in Vietnam and Thailand for the past month and I wasn't privy to all of the happenings....I was angry and then I cooled off..give me the facts..in fairness to all!

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MRKEY

Perhaps in the spirit of fairness to all, this thread can transform into the admission thread that ozstamps intended it to be, even if he didn't make his point in the way some would have liked him to. Ambassador Toner hit the nail right on the head with his comments.

I doubt this post of mine will do anything but draw more flames for ozstamps, but, come on, surprise me, folks.

Glen can start out and reveal all his aliases, and the other offending parties can do the same. Then this nasty practice will be officially dead, and the era of IP logging can go forward http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif and we should never have to have such acrimony again caused by the same thing.

P.S. Nice comments, Randy.

I second motnot's suggestion.

Hear, hear. Whether or not Ozstamps lacks standing to complain of others using multiple names to post, anyone who has criticized him for using multiple names ought to be willing to disclose his/her own multiple names and stop the practice. For if Ozstamps cannot insist that others now follow a standard that he fell short of, yet those who insist that he follow a certain standard must follow the same standard themselves or give up complaining.

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"If you want to win the game, write the rules."

And, Randy, thank you for letting us play in your house. We are sorry for soiling the carpets.

See Violist's thread in FT Community:
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum95/HTML/000785.html

What a great place to learn openly and fairly who we have been dealing with (oz, et al)...

Ozstamps: I think you may be the tall poppy on Flyertalk. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif